Advent Rebels really need a means of defending against novaliths

I think they should add a population growth modifier to expulsion to help it synergize with wail.

Doesn't the Novalith reduce population growth? That wouldn't really solve the problem.

Actually I'd been tinkering with that same exact Idea a week ago or, but had subsequently forgotten about it.  Thanks for reminding me , that is certainly another very viable way of giving the advent rebels the resistance to populationd amage they need.

Of course a third option would be to do something with hardened cities.  Or better yet, buff hardened cities and give the advent rebels a faction specific buff tor resisting population damage(That way all advent get a bit of a buff resisting the economic damage of novalith & the rebels get a bigger buff to resisting population damage as is needed).

I however mostly focused on Cleanse and renew as it is a high tier research which IMO is extremely boring and of rather situational benefit in it's current state.

From what I know it only reduces maximum population, not growth rate.

It reduces it, this would counteract the population growth debuff.

Interesting, I use the nova so little, I only know what it says on my planet infocard when I'm being hit, and I don't think it 's noted there.

Novaliths do not reduce the growth rate. You're thinking of heavy fallout on the siege frigates.

Just to make sure, are you suggesting an Orbital Structure that does this, or that this benefit comes from researching a tech?

Either or really.  I think an orbital structure or some other per-planet investment would be appropriate if possible.  But in all honesty I doubt there would be any chance of a new model being produced at this stage in the game.

I suppose if it were deemed necessary for there to be some investment per planet, the effect could very well eb tacked onto temples of communion(would also lend it's self well tot he stated goal as the same planets we need to protect the population of for wail of the forsaken are protected by the same building which enables the ability).

I hadn't really thought about specifics as to whether it would be available by default or from an orbital structure, but you raise a good point.  That said, I think the easiest way to balance it would be to implement it initially as a benefit from researching the tech and if deemed too strong it could be moved onto an orbital structure.  In all honesty I'm not 100% convinced it would need to be, being that while the effect is very potent it is also rather niche(it defends against an economic sideeffect of bombardment which doesn't result in loss of the planet(usually by the time the opponent starts bombarding they are in position to take the planet).  it's primary use really would just be mitigating an opponent's ability to kill your population using novalith cannon, a single specific super weapon which has other effects as well.

I would prefer a per-planet solution, maybe with a connected investment. We are talking about increasing the probability of using wail of the sacrificed here. If the rate of recharge (it's nothing else in this case) was increased it should be tied to a risk the player has to take.

The investment could be money, stop of local culture spread, taking away planetary HP regeneration or decreasing the HP cap, or maybe a combination of things. This way, even if the planet was protected by a starbase it would become more suspectible to enemy attacks while recharging, giving the enemy a chance to retaliate properly.

you could tie it to the starbases "orbital government" research, which makes the most sense to me seeing as you would probably already have starbses up with this researched anyway if your geting spamed with novaliths.

Well the recharge rate aspect wasn't really part of my default poposition.  I mentioned it as a possible addition if the ability ever were to be deemed too niche and in need of a buff.

That said, the default form of my proposition would only increase regeneration after suffering population loss to bombardment/novalith shots.

Unless you were replying to Mayal's idea, which would certainly improve wail's recharge rate.  Keep in mind in anycase Wail has a cooldown on the actual ability(on temples of communion).  It's very possible to simply increase that cooldown so time between wails is roughly the same, but any population regeneration simply means the advent rebel's economy recovers more quickly after a wail.

Certainly Wail shouldn't become anywhere near spammable.  The main focus of this thread is providing the advent rebels with some tool to prevent novalith cannons from neutering Wail of the Forsaken long before the TEC even attacks.

That would certainly be a possibly solution. It would be perfect if not for the fact that starbases require temples of hostility to unlock which create a number of problems for a civic technology.

 the only reason I'm a bit leery towards it though is that this would bump the effective temples requirement of cleanse and renew to have any effect up to 9 tempels(as you would also need the 3 temples & associated researches for starbases & auxiliary govenment in addition to the 6 harmony temples for cleanse and renew).  Not to mention I think it's a bit sloppy to have civic research topics REQUIRE a research topics from the military tree in general(as it creates topics which effectively can be researched and do nothing).

That said though, I think my proposition is niche enough that it could at least be tried with no orbital structure requirements.  Frankly starabses with Aux government are already a necessary and large investment to defend against novaliths(and my suggestion won't make them any less necessary), so honestly I'm not 100% sold that additional per-planet costs are necessary.

 Though that said, if an orbital structure requirement is added it would need to be something available in the harmony tree.  otherwise this technology can't realistically have it's benefits available at the same stage of the game as novaliths come out(T6 for TEC loyalists)

I always do this

This may not be exactly what you're after, but there's another solution that comes to mind.

Wail of the Sacrificed could be split in to two components, a passive and an active. The passive would inherit the "planet pop death -> damage" aspect.  (this would make it more powerful in some circumstances :-/) The active would inherit the "population sacrifice" active.

So now if TEC players try to use "preventative" Novalith bombardment, they'd trigger the new passive. This could help put the ball back in the AR's court.

I don't think this is what we need.  Letting the opponent choose the time and place of the damage is just silly.  Why would they have their fleet anywhere nearby when they know they are likely triggering the AoE damage(after all they choose when to fire novalith).  Worst case scenario the TEC player would even be able to use the advent player as a weapon against another adjacent player(in a FFA game).

If there's one thing I'm certain of it's that the advent player needs to be in complete control of when the AoE damage happens- it is their ability after all.

When it comes down to it, Wail of the sacrificed is one of the single most defining technologies of the Advent rebels. An entire races shouldn't be essentially immune to it if they play with half a brain.

 The entire purpose of this tech is to use the threat of a massive AoE to make the opponent hesitant to commit heir entire fleet to an attack on large pop worlds. If the TEC can harmlessly discharge the AoE when they have no fleet present, the benefit of this tech is every bit as negated as the current implementation leaves it against TEC opponents.

When it comes down to it, the only way this technology will actually fufill it's purpose against TEC is if it isn't so easy for TEC to keep advent rebel key world's populations bottomed out with novalith cannons.

I'm of course not saying that novalith cannons should be utterly ineffective: they hsould cause some population loss(hnd have the -40% population penalty to boot, which alone is a substantial but reasonable penalty to Wail damage).  But they shouldn't be able to keep a planet's Wail utterly nonthreatening at all times(or at least a single cannon shouldn't be able to).

If one player entrenches and builds novaliths behind his walls and the other builds a good defense against that strategy then the 2 could sit far from each other playing simcity.

He-wont be building novaliths if hes in trouble- Just build a 1 starbase on your home world with enduring devotion so you don't loose it completely after your population goes down then get your titan out-guardians with repulse, halcyons (20 bomber Squads), drone hosts (60+ bomber Squads) Defense vessels and Corvettes and steam roll is outer colonies:

The whole idea is to attack one another.

Any player who gives you head room to build drone host is awaiting the 100+ bomber Squad Rampage: its unstoppable. Tec don't have phasic Trap: there screwed.

Edit:

Push from more than 2 halcyons also makes there strike craft completely useless.

Edit:

You have to starbase worlds:devotion then trade/culture modules to ehance your economy or culture spread: Either way you win if hes not prepared for your assault.

Yes those are the general tactics for dealing with novaliths.  Honestly the existence of general tactics doesn't preclude a single faction having an alternate strategy.  

Moreover you're missing the point.  My point wasn't that novaliths are utterly uncounterable- it's that they are preventing a faction from utilizing part of what is supposed to make their playstyle unique.  

Part of why we're in beta is that we're suppose to help balance the new abilities.  At present Wail of the forsaken is a bit of a flawed technology in that it's worthless against any opponent who builds a novalith canon.  Yes, in terms of macro balance you can counter novalith cannons with a rush, but that doesn't change that one of the new techs is essentially a waste once novaliths come out.

As you say the whole point is to attack eachother- this hasn't changed, in the long run the advent rebels need to attack to get anything done.  Gaining resistance to novaliths just puts the same restriction on the TEC: they have to step out from behind their fortifications if they really want to deal some damage.  having a single faction that's a bit more resistant to being shelled from accross the galaxy isn't really a problem IMO.  

You talk like I'm proposing immunity to novaliths, I'm not.  I'm suggesting what is essentially the ability to regenerate 66% of the lost population over the next 2 minutes or so- the max pop debuff is still applied, the trade penalty is still applied, the planetary damage is still applied.  You still are going to have to attack the TEC turtle, the only difference is that if they counterattack the advent rebels will actually be able to use the defensive tool they are supposed to have(albeit at reduced effectiveness as novaliths will still hurt their population even with my changes).

When it comes down to it, I see no reason a faction should be denied one of their primary defensive tools against an entire race.  

Besides, where the heck is the cash for 100 squads of bombers coming from? the enemy spent 6-8k on a novalith cannon, I find it a tad difficult to believe that it takes the same amount of time/income to fund 2 halcyons and enough carriers to field 100 squads of bombers.

Pro multiplayer matches don't spam novaliths unless they want to die for spending those credits

On a  1 star map: advent culture can overwhelm planets when boosted by the star-base placed on the frontline planet while reducing the income of every other enemy planet engulfed by culture: Its the reason why they were never given defenses against the cannon. There star-bases can overthrow planets. You also have to remember the benefits they also get with culture etc.

You are arguing that an economic buff that looses its role to a novalith cannon is not balanced: You only loose it on a per planet bases: Its not for the entire system of advent planets.

Anyone except the ai who rushes for Novaliths is just going to loose the war in the long run to someone who spends money conquering his outer colonies.

I don't see how the additional population growth buff balances things when the transcencia starbase is super strong at tier 3. You loose a planet and can't colonize due to radiation and he looses a planet and can't colonize due to culture.

Its more prominent to try acquire buffs for the eradica's level 6 ability than the advent economy which some hint as low, but is low due to technical unit advantages it has that screw up shield mitigation rates of enemy units. You will always win when you go full force military and conquer more planets than you loose to novalith cannons.

And for the other 90% of players...

They can pretend its ok to spam novaliths up until they fail-let them amuse themselves

Good luck selling a game that has an almost entirely single player non-pro audience that's balanced around what a few pros on the forums think.

I play both multi- and singleplayer and I can tell you balancing any game that includes multiplayer and singelplayer around the AI behaviour is completely silly. If anything the AI needs to be fixed to act less like a utter retard. If the AI behaves properly, meaning at least halfway like a sane human player would, then the multiplayer balance focusing on "pro gamers opinions" would have no negative impact for players challenging AIs.

Edit: btw, played a round of diplomacy this weekend, the AI (level: cruel) focused on fleet properly, scouted my planets and sent in a fleet according to what it found there. It only built one superweapon, about four hours into the game. This is not even close to how dumb the current beta AI works. If the Rebellion AI will behave similarly I don't see where the Nova spam we currently experience could be any problem.

Well the AI will get fixed sometime hopefully which means less Novalith spam, and as stated by people who do Multiplayer it isn't an issue in matches, but I still think that the Advent could use something to lessen the impact of bombardment and Novaliths on planets.

I actually like the OP's idea, it sounds like it could be awesome with a lowered regen and if it has cost per planet, like the TEC Shield Generator. A suggestion I have though is that whenever it is being actively bombarded by ships in orbit, the regen should be disabled until the bombardment is stopped (or the planet is lost.)

so if you remove the impact of bombardement what is the point of playing anytghihng else the advent?

You have to loose a planet because they expect to loose some through your culture: So 2 shots by the cannon and your kaput-dead-gone with the wind. (1 shot for an asteroid).

Its balanced.

The problem is you never know where the cannon strikes and i haven't memorized the cannons recharge time. If there was an actual indicator as to where the cannon is striking then you could setup a star-base with enduring devotion and let the cannon fire itself to exhaustion on 1 planet-but with the Devs sick sense of humor its a stealth attack unless you zoom out and watch the projectile travel across the stars. Even then you never know where it stops if there's more than 1 world in its path.You could always guess-buts that's too much of a headache therefore the  best solution is to cross your fingers and hope its your ally whose about to get whacked.