Adjustments I'd like to be made to Advent Rebel technologies

from Sins Forums

The Advent Loyalist technologies seem more or less ready IMO.  They have a well unified theme to them which encourages a specific playstyle and a very natural progression which gives the advent loyals the tools they need at the stage of the game they need them.

 

By contrast I feel that the Advent Rebels techs are not currently so well designed.  Some of their techs are just broken or bad, and others don't become available during the right stage of the game.

 

First off, what should be the unifying strategic leanings of the rebels:

  I believe the sort of gameplay the rebel techs are suppose to encourage are a "passive aggressive" playstyle where they turtle up(encouraged by recharge shields & wail of the forsaken for added defense and Expulsion to reward the play for defending) and as the game progresses inhibits and harms the advent rebel's neighbor's border world from behind fortifications(via culture-spread & wail of the he Sacrificed).  

 

Additionally since pretty much all of the Advent rebel's combat techs are extremely deep in their tech trees(combined with their strong combat-oriented titan) I suspect after turtling and focusing on economy through the early game, late game they are meant to go on the offensive: using wail of the forsaken to wreck the defenses od enemy border worlds and sending their fleet now augmented by strong combat techs on the offensive.

 

Lastly in terms of culture, I feel the rebels have more mphasis on the temple of communion then the loyalists.  The loyalists are just as happy getting their culture from starbases or later on having culture autospread from their worlds.  By contrast Mass communion encourages the rebel player to build a lot of temples(and temples also house the Wail of the Sacrificed ability).

 

Anyway, the passive aggressive theme, early game turtling/economizing, and the greater focus on temples of communion are the main ways I see of differentiating the rebels from the loyals.  I'd love to see more discussion on how people think the rebel playstyle should be diversified from that of their loyal bretheren.

 

Specific problems and suggested Fixes:

 

Expulsion:

Issues:  The only real problem with this tech is it comes out too late in the game.  Later game a buff to a single planet at a time and place of the enemy's choosing isn't huge especially considering at that stage of the game a successful defense usually has greater ramifications(casualties to the enemy fleet let you go on the offensive).  

Changes: Reduce Expulsion from a  T6 tech to a T3 or T4 tech. This would also encourage an early game turtle/economy focused strategy which would do wonders for differentiating the rebel playstyle from that of the loyals(who are focused on early culture pressure & expansion)

 

Recharge Shields:

Issues:  This tech has a number of problems.  First and foremost it is a rather AM-inefficient single-target shield restore over time that comes out late enough in the game that the fleets involved in major planetary battles are going to be very large(and the battles long).  More to the point the default ability of temple of renewal is like a better use of AM for late game battles then Recharge shields is.  Moreover this tech really belongs in the early game.  It's essentially a mirror to repair platforms that comes out at T6 instead of T1-T2(when single target repair is strongest).  finally there is no reason recharge shields should cost 30 AM.  Shield restores are inherently weaker then hull restores(the restored health isn't affected by armor) and TEC repair platforms heal 40 hull/sec for 20 AM.  As a faction-specific benefit the AM efficiency shouldn't be this bad.

Changes: I suggest 3 changes(which target each of it's issues.  First drop this tech to T2(now requiring Temple of communion research instead of temple of renewal research).  Next this tech now adds the recharge shields ability to Temples of communion research instead of temples of renewal(additionally this tech grants temples of communion an AM pool of 300 to cast the ability with).  Finally reduce the AM cost of Recharge shields from 30 to 20.


Mass communion:

Issues:  This tech is just bad.  By the time you learn it you likely already have your  key temples in place, and due to the major limitations logistics put on temples construction, building enough temples to pay back the costs is very difficult.  Most people want this tech's research tier decreased.  personally I disagree as doing so would make the Advent rebel's early game similar to that of the loyals.  

Changes: Have this tech also reduce the logistics cost of temples of communion by 25 or maybe even 50%(down to 2 or 3 from 4).  This would make it much easier to pay back the cost of the research(you can fit twice as many temples on a given planet).   Additionally this change would really differentiate how the rebels use culture from the loyals.  the loyals focus on early culture pressure and general culture potency where the rebels are better at building mass-temple culture bombs later game(cheaper  temples & more logistics).  Finally this would synergize with my suggested changes to recharge Shields.

 

A few compensatory changes to accompany the above changes:

 

The one big problem with the above changes is they leave the end of the harmony tree a bit sparse.  I can see two obvious ways to compensate :

 

1). rework Cleanse and Renew.  For a late-tier faction specific tech this one is rather undewhelming and honesly not too interesting.  A new effect would be nice

2).  Move Return of the Fallen & Reanimation up a tier each from T4/T5 to T5/T6 respectively.  I know this is controversial as it's a small nerf to two key-techs which don't even work at the moment.  The thing is, the extra defense/economy from early game repulsion/recharge shields will likely make up for an extra tier in terms of how long it actually takes to get these techs.  With these added defenses & economical boosts, surviving longer enough to get these techs will likely be easier even considering the ened for 1 extra temple of harmony & extra research costs.  Additionally moving Return of the Fallen out of T4(to T5) makes room for Expulsion if T4 were deemed the proper place for it rather then T3(advent rebels harmony T4 is completely full atm)

 

These changes would ensure that the later portion of the harmony tree is still enticing despite the mvoe of 2 late game techs to much earlier in the tree

 

Putting it All together: how would these changes play out?

The extra defenses early game from Recharge shields combined with the rewards for successfully defending(expulsion) would likely encourage the advent rebels to play an early game focused on it's economy and turtling, while at the same time building a culture base surrounding your territory(which interestingly enough is practically the polar opposite of the advent loyals whom expand rapidly and may stay on the offensive rather then defend small worlds due to planet-for-a-planet).  Additionally it's interesting to note these changes would support a more economically minded playstyle as the recharge shield change gives an early game alternative to repair platforms in the harmony tree(allowing the player to get defenses while focusing on economy techs rather then needing an immediate 2 temples of hostility).

 

The addition of early defenses & repulsion being available early also further promotes a passive-aggressive playstyle.  The advent rebel player's culture generation doesn't become a huge threat early...that is until you fail an attack on them and due to expulsion suddenly find your culture being pushed back.

 

 These early defenses would help the Advent rebels protect and build up their empire until they get deep into their tech trees where all their combat enhancements are(Return of the fallen, Reanimation, or if focusing on the military tree Protection of the Unity). Between having these techs & having inevitably built a titan by this point later game the Advent rebels transition to the offensive, using Wail of the Sacrificed to gut the defenses of enemy border-worlds and sending their strong late game fleet to mop up.

 

All in all I think these changes would make the Advent rebel's techs flow a bit better.  They would get the tools they need at the stages of the game when they actually need them.  Moreover, these changes would drastically increase the differentiation in the way they play from the loyals by giving them a fundamental paradigm shift in their early game strategy.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, tell me what you think.  if you think the changes are too strong,constructive criticism is welcome.

[NOTE: This posts is still under construction a bit(mainly posting it now to be safe because this is actually the second time I've typed it; I accidentally hit a side mouse button and deleted my first iteration).]

5,639 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I don't think they have a particular play style like the TEC factions. What are supposed to be their two main techs, Return of the Fallen and Reanimation, probably work better on the offensive. Recharge shields and the rest are just bonuses to round them out. Their main theme is clearly sacrifice/control over life, and these powers can be used for both offensive and defensive purposes. To gear them more towards defense like the TEC loyalists would be a waste IMO.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1
I don't think they have a particular play style like the TEC factions. What are supposed to be their two main techs, Return of the Fallen and Reanimation, probably work better on the offensive. Recharge shields and the rest are just bonuses to round them out. Their main theme is clearly sacrifice/control over life, and these powers can be used for both offensive and defensive purposes. To gear them more towards defense like the TEC loyalists would be a waste IMO.

 

 First off, thanks for the feedback & discussion!

 

Next just to clarify: what I'd more envisioned was early game defense/economy transitioning into an offensive late game once they get to their key techs(Return of the Fallen and Reanimation).  My main aim with the defensive changes was to give them defenses to last up to the point where they get said key-techs as well as allow them to build a strong(at least as strong as possible for advent) early economy to supply a large fleet to reap the benefits of these reviving techs.  

 

So while our specific viewpoints may differ a bit, in a way we agree that they should have a balance between offense/defense(in my case rather then and even split the entire game I was aiming for a defensive early game transitioning into an offensive late game).  My emphasis on early defense in my OP was mostly because the advent rebs already have the late game offense.

 

Though, you make a good point.  I would certainly also like to see more on the death/revival theme(perhaps something more interesting from Cleanse & Renew?).  

 

 In part I suppose I'm just irked that the advent rebels get pretty much nothing for their early game whereas the loyals get substantial buffs which encourage a a previously underutilized strategy(which gives rise to a more unique early-game playstyle).   Also on that topic: how do you feel about the current flow of advent rebel Techs(which is to say how they are concentrated on the deep end of the trees)? As that was part of my motivation in these changes I'd be interested in hearing other player's perspective on that topic 

 

 

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting bilun, reply 2
In part I suppose I'm just irked that the advent rebels get pretty much nothing for their early game whereas the loyals get substantial buffs which encourage a a previously underutilized strategy(which gives rise to a more unique early-game playstyle).

Honestly I think all of the factions have their real unique stuff too far down the tech tree (save maybe TOR, but that is absolutely useless mid game). When the TEC came out I tried to persuade them to give each faction bonuses that are active at the start of the game without any research (I maybe biased as I've done that in my mod), but it seems pretty clear they won't be taking that approach. Mass communion should certainly either be buffed, moved down the tree or even better replaced with something else all together (I'd rather the loyalist get all the culture stuff while the Rebels get more along their own theme), as perhaps a couple of others, but I don't think they're substantially any worse off.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3



Quoting bilun,
reply 2
In part I suppose I'm just irked that the advent rebels get pretty much nothing for their early game whereas the loyals get substantial buffs which encourage a a previously underutilized strategy(which gives rise to a more unique early-game playstyle).


Honestly I think all of the factions have their real unique stuff too far down the tech tree (save maybe TOR, but that is absolutely useless mid game). When the TEC came out I tried to persuade them to give each faction bonuses that are active at the start of the game without any research (I maybe biased as I've done that in my mod), but it seems pretty clear they won't be taking that approach. Mass communion should certainly either be buffed, moved down the tree or even better replaced with something else all together (I'd rather the loyalist get all the culture stuff while the Rebels get more along their own theme), as perhaps a couple of others, but I don't think they're substantially any worse off.

The funny thing is, I was looking around the game info folder and I found what I think are the old research files for when you could chose what side you wanted in-game.

Seems they did plan on some small changes to certain values when you picked a side. Not built in from the start like you wanted but close enough I guess.

This is just wild guessing from looking at some old stuff though, so take it with a grain of salt.

You can try looking for the files if you want a look yourself, they are called DECLAREFACTION after the RESEARCHSUBJECT line.

 

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Quoting bilun, reply 2In part I suppose I'm just irked that the advent rebels get pretty much nothing for their early game whereas the loyals get substantial buffs which encourage a a previously underutilized strategy(which gives rise to a more unique early-game playstyle).

Honestly I think all of the factions have their real unique stuff too far down the tech tree (save maybe TOR, but that is absolutely useless mid game). When the TEC came out I tried to persuade them to give each faction bonuses that are active at the start of the game without any research (I maybe biased as I've done that in my mod), but it seems pretty clear they won't be taking that approach. Mass communion should certainly either be buffed, moved down the tree or even better replaced with something else all together (I'd rather the loyalist get all the culture stuff while the Rebels get more along their own theme), as perhaps a couple of others, but I don't think they're substantially any worse off.

 

I personally agree mass communion should be the for the Loyalist. As for the OP I agree almost 100% with him, but maybe Shield Renew should be attached to the repair platform(For consistencies sake). And add a bonus increase to antimatter regeneration to the Repair Platform when Shield Renew is researched(The Advents Hostility tree is severely lacking).

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I have to say, I am completely behind the OP here. I love his suggestions and would love to see this implemented. I am an Economy/Turtling player that saves the offence for after the research. Everything you said would work perfectly for that playstyle. I haven't played enough to say how balanced this would be, or if it really works for the whole differentiating the rebel/loyalist, but I would love to at least try this out. 

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 3

Quoting bilun, reply 2In part I suppose I'm just irked that the advent rebels get pretty much nothing for their early game whereas the loyals get substantial buffs which encourage a a previously underutilized strategy(which gives rise to a more unique early-game playstyle).

Honestly I think all of the factions have their real unique stuff too far down the tech tree (save maybe TOR, but that is absolutely useless mid game). When the TEC came out I tried to persuade them to give each faction bonuses that are active at the start of the game without any research (I maybe biased as I've done that in my mod), but it seems pretty clear they won't be taking that approach. Mass communion should certainly either be buffed, moved down the tree or even better replaced with something else all together (I'd rather the loyalist get all the culture stuff while the Rebels get more along their own theme), as perhaps a couple of others, but I don't think they're substantially any worse off.

Is your mod for Diplo or Rebellion?

 

Anyways, if we presume them to be a group that has decided to attempt to purify themselves to the point where they gain control over life and death, we may want to almost think of them as a transcendent race.  Clearly their revival techs should come late, but it seems to me that later in the game, they should almost seem aloof compared to the other races.  They should almost seem that they don't care about anything else anymore.  They are nearing ultimate control over their own fates.

Correspondingly, in the early game, they should probably be fearful and defensive.  They just withdrew from the Unity, a very very bold gesture for their people that would result in the Unity wanting to hunt them down and kill them as well.

 

To achieve the above, I agree that you should bring defensive powers down in the tech tree while the ones that give them power over life and death should be moved upwards.  Because I don't know the precise implementation of the researchables, I can't give terribly specific feedback, but the general trend featured in the OP seems to be what I'd agree with.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

I generally agree with all of your proposed changes here.  The only one I am personally leery of would be the Shield recharge.  The benefit (to my mind) for shield recharges is to keep the mitigation benefit going, as well as the fact that a majority of Advent ships feature high shield totals.  Combining shield recharge with repair facilities effectively doubles their rate of return during combat, which really makes a defending armada a tough nut to crack (especially when combined with culture bonuses throughout).

 

I feel as though bringing the shield restore online earlier could make that faction almost a too-effective turtle power (cowabunga?).  If you gave the shield restore to the Temples, I would prefer to see it as a passive Restore Rate increase, rather than a targeted restoration (like shield bestowal, but perhaps not the 4.0 per tick, just a flat +25% rate increase or something to passive regeneration).

 

The reduced cost Temples I whole-heartedly agree with.  In fact, I was thinking that it should be a 2nd rank to the actual Temple research on tier 2 (tier 1 unlocks, tier 2 reduces cost (whether monetary or slot).  I like the monetary reduction more at that tier, as slot decrease could become problematic unless you reduce it to 2 from 4 (3 would leave odd remainders for some combinations of total logistic slots), and 2 might be *too* effective.

 

Anyway, I like your ideas!

 

Dav

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Mitigation is applied even when shields are down.  Also, armor is applied to hull, so it would still be significantly weaker than TEC repair stations.

That said, I would be okay with it recharging passively at 2/3 SPS.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
Is your mod for Diplo or Rebellion?

Diplomacy. I'll port it to Rebellion once is fully released, and maybe after the first patch or too.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 7
Anyways, if we presume them to be a group that has decided to attempt to purify themselves to the point where they gain control over life and death, we may want to almost think of them as a transcendent race. Clearly their revival techs should come late, but it seems to me that later in the game, they should almost seem aloof compared to the other races. They should almost seem that they don't care about anything else anymore. They are nearing ultimate control over their own fates.

That's how I see them. If you want to put the revival techs farther down the tree but make them more powerful that's fine.  Of course with those and Mass Communion gone, they won't have much unique stuff mid game either.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

What exactly do Return of the Fallen and Reanimation do?  From what I've gathered, RotF sounds like the one that is supposed to make dead ships reappear at your homeworld whereas reanimation would revive them in the battle itself.  I've also heard people talking about clones of ships or gaining control of dead enemy ships?

I'm also not clear on what Mass Communion does.

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Yes to the OP! This is just the kinda of good differentiating suggestion i want the devs to read. Im kinda disappointed with the advent so far, and that makes me sad cause through Diplo they have been my favorite race. I also think GOA fans suggestion of an automatic set of passive bonuses based on what faction you pick right from the get go makes 100% sense. They need to feel at least a little different right from the start. As people have said previously, this is a big transition shock for all of them, and they should be different for it.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

I like the OP suggestions for Mass Communion. Playing the Advent rebels seems ho hum for most of the early to mid game. In terms of playing against the AI, trying to make this into something to help turtling/economy players sounds great but you do not get much economic reward for doing so, or for building all those Temples of Communion (right now you have to divert a lot of money to research it, then even more money to build them). It seems to be a huge diversion of resources without a lot of defense value.

At least in the larger maps I have played, you either try using this early and the AI can build up a better fleet, or you wait till later while concentrating on defense, and then have problems with income due to novalith spam. I am just not sure where it fits in - by the time you have money to build all those, you can probably attack anyways. If you are turtling, all the opponent has to do is build counter culture and station cap ships in some systems. Those changes I think would more clearly define it as a late game useful tactic.

 

I would agree that Cleanse and Renew seems pretty useless in terms of benefits. Expulsion comes too late to make a lot of difference.  Does anyone know if the Expulsion bonus is a set amount or population based? It would be bad to render it useless just by novalithing your target a few times before invading.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 11
What exactly do Return of the Fallen and Reanimation do?  From what I've gathered, RotF sounds like the one that is supposed to make dead ships reappear at your homeworld whereas reanimation would revive them in the battle itself.  I've also heard people talking about clones of ships or gaining control of dead enemy ships?

I'm also not clear on what Mass Communion does.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Return of the Fallen resurrects your own dead ships and Reanimation temporarily resurrects enemy dead ships (that you've killed, presumably, neither work right now).  I'm not sure where they're supposed to appear.

Mass communion makes culture temples cheaper.

i do see the Advent rebels as a little more defensive, in that they can more cheaply put up temples of communion on borderworlds (inside your empire, you only need a few).  They're not TEC loyalists, but they are a little more subversive than the Advent loyalists.

To build on that theme, the resurrection techs could have a +5 percentage point probability of working within their own gravity well or culture.  

perhaps expulsion should be a level 3-ish diplomacy tech, like TEC loyalists' war bonds.

Also, what if mass communion also made evangelization nodes 25% cheaper?

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

First of all, blown away by all the feedback guys; great to be getting all these responses.

 

 

It seems the greatest controversy surrounds my recharge shields change, so I thought I may as well explain my rationale:

 

I actually had considered putting the recharge shields ability on repair platforms as some people suggested. I chose notto for 2 reasons: first it creates a wierd situation where this harmony tech does nothing without also researching another tech which is in the hostility tree(repair platform).  Secondly(and more importantly) adding this ability to repair platforms wouldn't really be very useful.  The major constraining factor on repair platform's ability to keep ships alive isn't really repair rate for most of the early-mid game: it's AM exhaustion.  A repair platforms uses it's entire AM pool in about 1 minute(and let's face it, even skirmishes in sins take longer then that).   Adding a second ability to repair platform just means they run out of AM twice as fast making about the same net benefit(actually a lower net benefit as shield restore is a weaker use of AM then hull restore).  If the ability were added to repair platforms the AM efficiency would need a very larger buff(something like reducing the AM cost to 10-15).



Honestly I doubt the change I suggested would be OP in general.  The tec already have repair platforms that heal 40 hull/sec for 20 AM.  that extra 10 hull heal is worth about 11-12 shield after armor, and a bit more considering the presence of damage that ignores shields.  So realistically an advent rebel with a temple of communion * a repair platform out would be getting an extra 18 heal/sec as compared to a TEC player, but to do so they would have to invest an extra 750 credits & 4 logistics(for the temple) and have both 2 military and civic labs(to get both repair bay and recharge shields).  Moreover for less cost the TEC player could just build 2 repair bays- they would have elss single-target healing, but better all over heal AM efficiency & a cheaper setup cost.

 

That said, the Idea to have recharge shields instead add a shield regen aura is very interesting.   That could certainly be an interesting alternative.

 

 

For those who commented on the difficulty of balancing my Mass communion suggestion(to weak t 1 discount, too strong at 2).  I see your point.  Doubling logistic capability for temples could be a very big deal, but at a reduction of 1 you need to build 3 temples to see any benefit.  Methinks I'm going to do a bit of thinking on that change and see if I can think of any better way to accomplish the goal of my changes.

 

Anyway, keep the discussion coming, a lot of good points being made.  :grin: