Yes. Online competitive play is here to stay and a big part of many games. Doesn't mean I have to like seeing lots of fun stuff in games being sacrificed on it's "Altar of Balance".

But let's not get sidetracked.

Well I at least will wait until the other factions are released before I get into a lengthy discussion about TAR. So I'll take the cheap and easy way out and leave the fun to the rest of you here for now.

actually i'm about 50% below the "poverty" line in the US...never stopped me from having nice things or a great life though .  I was able to predict your level of experience off of the forum join date, this time around anyways .  I could also tell your experience by how you thought about the game as well, so I had two bits of data that made an accurate picture.  Just needed 1 more (your confirmation did this) to have the 3rd data point to ensure reliability of information.

I agree with you 100%, we need to actually test this.  I have to make a real, convincing position to even get the developers to consider the opportunity(and i don't want to waste their time)...once its up for testing that means that the developers have spent some time on it, which means that the purpose of this debate has been realized and further debate on how to balance in the minutia will be needed. 

You can also use deductive reasoning to ascertain the line of thinking currently occuring in the development team.  I agree the advent felt half finished, the part missing was their economic aspect (culture has been modified more as a weapon, less as an economic boost...If i could guess future advent economy improvements it would be along improving the loyalty bonus you get from being in friendly culture).

I've enjoyed our conversation.

We need fast expands for other races

Tec Rebels  = TAR

Advent Loyalist = Free culture on planets (counters tar also because it prevents just sending out a sole colony ship)

Vasari = Not sure

Tec Loyalist tar counter = Fast Nova cannons. Also while tar gives you more planets, it gives you overall less income due to cost of planet upgrades at the start.  Could make trade more expensive for Rebels.

Advent Rebel can have resistant to culture. Dont need towers, but they can stop the spread of culture vs having to put up their own towers.

Vasari = Make siege ups cheaper.

Not only is Global Unity a tier six tech, it also requires quite a bit of prerequisite research, involving culture of course. It is far from countering TAR.

The concept could counter TAR though, and I think that's sort of the idea here...

Presumably, at least one of the Vasari factions (hopefully rebels) will get an ability that in concept is comparable to TAR...

If TAR, Global Unity, and this wildcard Vasari tech were all made viable for early game, then 3 of the factions would have very strong and very unique early games...presumably the other three factions would be compensated with superior late game advantages...

In practice, though, even that's going to be problematic...powerful early game bonuses are hard to counterbalance with powerful late game bonuses...

I mean, how does one balance TAR with cheap novaliths and double SBs?  I'm not saying it is impossible, but it's a lot harder than balancing the faction's Titans (which would all come online at more or less the same time)...

Those were suggestions, since releasing advents were a mistake devs can quickly change it to be tier 3 or 4.

I believe the fast expand groups need to have trade cost increased to maybe 1.5x.

Vasari = Fast neutrals, low labs, and Mobility...

Now if that titan can destroy worlds, and take the population & LABS with it.  And put population on StarBases (fix Colony Pods so its worth it).  Who Knows?!

It might get interesting.  But I'm gonna wait and see.

@JJ

Yes you have pretty much summed up the difficulty with TAR balance in a few words.  Culture is a lame substitute for resource providing planets that need 1-2 planet health upgrades to become hard targets.  Also, rebels excel at culture of their own, so a culture war would just be a stalemate anyways, even with the advents increased culture power I dont' think they will be able to easily overcome 2 culture generators and a capital ship hanging out at that planet without starbase culture assistance. 

We both desire to keep TAR in the game, so hopefully no sacrifice will be needed. 

Well, the thing is a planet is a valuable asset, it generates a lot of income.  A more valuable asset then just pure culture alone...so giving out free planets like candy will always be overpowered...

My solution, give everybody free planets, let the battle lines be drawn by people's good and bad choices.  Trying to balance it any other way will be a long drawn out ordeal that will not truly ever solve the problem.  Planets are just too critical to the game to just give one group a super advantage.  this is why Truce Among Rogues is a bigger idea then just making one faction unique.

This is true to an extent but I am willing to make sweeping changes...there are changes that probably should be made anyway that coincidently would make the Global Unity more powerful....if culture increased the max allegiance by 20% (instead of 10%) and culture propogated faster, then Global Unity would have great economic potency...I advocate these changes on the premise that culture in and of itself is pretty lame, but it turns out these changes would also make Global Unity more useful...

In conjunction with the above changes to culture, I think that if you had Global Unity at tier 3 (with the temple of communion tech as a prereq) and Truce of Rogues at tier 4 or 5 (haven't decided on the prereqs yet), then I think those technologies would be comparable enough to warrant serious playtesting...

As for the TEC loyalists, I would move development mandate to tier 3...this would give them an early game advantage that they are currently lacking...

Not sure yet what to do with Advent Rebels, and I'm keeping my focus for now on early game advantages only...nevertheless, I think this is a decent plan for good early game balance:

• TEC Loyalists - Development Mandate at tier 3
• TEC Rebels - Truce Amongst Rogues at tier 4 or 5
• Advent Loyalists - Global Unity at tier 3 (coupled with universal culture changes in gameplay file)
• Advent Rebels - Haven't decided yet

@ seleucia

Yes going about it the other way, you and I have very similar ideas along this line of thinking as well.  Good ideas all, and they need to all be implimented if the developers are not up for changing TAR too much.

The advent culture buff even at 20% might not be enough, but we shall see eh?  I hope we get a chance to test these ideas out in some form.

Well I think both mine and Seleuceia's mods increased the default max culture bonus to +20%, and it does make a huge difference. Of course we made that a global change, but since the Devs seem to be avoiding faction specific starting bonuses that's probably the way they'd do it.

Coupled with the doubled culture spread/decay rates as you suggested, I think it was very effective regardless of whether you were playing a mod with relatively high or low base allegiance values...I have a feeling we may need to bring up the culture topic again now that Rebellion is out for testing...the mechanic as a whole could be improved...

Well, go forth and spread the culture boys, you've got my support .  This would be a nice kick in the ass for that slow advent economy.

With TAR researched can you build structures in pirate and militia gravity wells and gain some income?  They won't blast you to bits, but will they share real estate?

With all the complaints, again my suggestion.  Hire Mercs and breakaways.  Our module lets the TEC hire pirates, but TEC can still run over militias and pirates who get in their way or be attacked.  What benefit is there for local pirates and militias to side with TEC just to inevitably fall under the thumb of all they ran like hell from?  So, yeah.  Outreach tactical structure hires pirates, gives tribute to advent breakaways, contracts some of the more indiscreet in the TCA and buys off some Taalo ultra-environmentalists.

Easy to modify it so TEC can call in some pirates, advent and vasari for aid and it makes sense since the vasari are looking to form an alliance to nail the threat that's coming soon™ and the advent certainly have their splinter groups.

  worth a shot.

@Sareth01> I have not read entire thread completely, but if i understood you correctly, you wish to give TAR to all the Rebel factions as some unifying, encompassing  aspect, because it fits the Rebel theme overall. Here i would like to point out, although all the Rebel factions are called Rebels so far, their goals are different and because of that, i think, more sensible solution would be just to rename Advent and Vasari Rebels to something else (as i proposed before), something more fitting to describe their nature. 

Like the Vasari Outcasts and the Advent Rogues... Or something.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420002

There were actually some pretty nice suggestions in that thread.

@ timmaigh

The point of the idea is giving eco players another option to have early enough to matter(eco spots get repetative)...as it is TEC rebel eco spots will just be insanely overpowered, there will be very little reason to play a skilled game if they have a TEC rebel eco player who knows what they are doing.  This will happen a lot and will be very frustrating.

The changes i've proposed are VERY simple for the developers to implement, and would be very easy to debug.  I'm not asking for a large change to something fundamental to the core of the game(like adding a new ship, or a new class of ships), i'm saying apply something that already works to 2 other factions(TAR, or a almost exactly TAR like ability), add 1 research for 3 other factions(reduced cost of siege frigates), and test.  This would change the game by adding MORE options, which increases the player's choices and therefore will give them a better feeling overall.  TAR has so many ways it could be rebalanced, these ideas could be used to give every rebel faction their own unique blend of TAR.  Advent expand via Tar using culture... Vasari expand TAR via...who knows... TEC expand TAR via militia alliance...

The thing is the rebels splintered away from their counterparts.  They will be weaker overall...when a rebellion occurs the legitimate government always has more initial support (even in the revolutionary war), but over time the rebellion can win people to its side.  This is the nature of rebellions, this is the NATURE of this entire expansion, which is named REBELLION.  Not having some legitimate understanding of a rebellion applied to the game play itself would mean that sins is going against its original design philosophy. The designers of sins already show a great understanding of military proportion and have many designs inherent in the game...if rebellion isn't the same way the game won't feel right, but most people won't be able to pin down why exactly that is.  This would only serve to hurt the game long term.

This game is being marketed as a "rebellion", yet if the rebellion aspect is just a weak storyline that justifies the name "rebellion" its pretty much a lie of proportion.  The proportion of the content implied to be about fighting a rebellion is extremely small, while the implied amount of rebellion in the game is very large because the title is named, rebellion.  The title itself, along with the trailer, box and game reviews is going to sell this game.  That is the power of a single name.  So to say that all the game needs is to change the name of a few factions, yes you are right, if you are thinking technically without thought to the human variable.  Add in the human variable and anyone will know that NO, you can't just change the names.  There would be outrage on these forums if you did.  Sins sales would be hurt in the process.  The justification that "there will be fighting in rebellion, the factions are unique, and therefore its a rebellion" is flawed, because this doesn't feel like a rebellion.  It doesn't have to be EXACTLY like a rebellion to feel like a rebellion within the existing game.  It does however need to "feel" like a rebellion...and the only aspect of the feel i get is that you fight other members of your faction with different strengths. 

FYI,

I would feel like a rebel if i'm spreading through the solar system convincing world after world to join my cause. 

I would feel like a loyalist if I prep for war to bomb out newly acquired rebel worlds, fighting off their weak militia allies.

This allows for the subtle "feel" of being these factions a certain measure of justification in the mechanics of the game balance itself.

The titles of Rebel, and Loyalist were chosen for a reason, it wasn't some willy nilly choice.  I'm saying just add a little meat to them bones...it doesn't have to be much!

The selling point is rebellion, released at a time of popular unrest in America... the devs sure know their target audience .

Expanding TAR and adding cheap siege frigate upgrades would mean that there is an in game "feeling" of fighting a pervasive rebellion.  Rebels would start out a little weaker investing heavily in spreading their word to other planets, while the loyalist would focus on blowing them up.  This would "feel" right.  This would also be balanced and provide more options for economic players to pursue a more diverse economy (not just getting trade ports).  Everybody wins, the developers for making a game "feel" like the game is marketed.  The players win because they get a new form of very exciting game play added into the game. 

Giving something to everyone doesn't always result in mediocrity, and in sins its very easy to ensure unique aspects.  I've never played a better game where one faction gets a building at tech level 2, and the others get the same building a little later on, and this makes all the difference in the world to the resulting gameplay.  Sins inherent design prevents a lot of mediocrity to begin with...trust the existing system guys, it works.

Yeah, but what i wanted to say, technically we do not know, which of the subfactions are the "government", you just assume its the Rebels because of the Rebel designation, which really does not fit. The "Rebels" are just following new doctrine, but hypothetically they could be the "governing" subfaction, who chose this new doctrine, and the Loyalists would be the splinter group, who decided not to follow this new doctrine and follow their original one.

EDIT: Its kinda difficult to explain, i hope you got my point. The whole Rebellion thing and Loyalist/Rebel designation is bit misleading, cause from the lore standpoint, there is not word about government and rogues, but 2 subfactions with different doctrines.

Gameplay-wise, i think we need to wait for all the factions available to play, before doing any judgements what is overpowered and what is not.  BTW, when you talk about this player in eco-spot, its 5v5 related only? Is there any way to influence which player ends-up in eco-spot?  

I understand what you mean.  Technically, we do know, the answer is inherent in the meaning of the word loyalist.

A loyalist is:

A loyalist is someone who maintains loyalty to an established government, political party, or sovereign, especially during war or revolutionary change.

Since the loyalists follow the existing "legitimate" ruler, they will almost always have a very strong support base right off the bat, while the rebels have to earn their support base while being pursued.

The lore supports the loyalist factions with a more "traditional choice for that race".  This justifies that the loyalist factions are in fact the traditionally larger loyalist group.  We knew the bigger chunk of the whole the second the "loyalists" and "rebels" were released.

I guess I could say in a few words, with my idea i'm trying to simulate the initial outbreak of the rebellion, so that the player feels like they are participating from day 1 of the event.  Imo, this is a bit more exciting and lends itself to the style of gameplay we already have in sins.

Just because the loyalists start off as the main aggressors doesn't mean they always win.  :)  Just because the rebels start off with the element of surprise and a strong doctrine for the dispossessed, doesn't mean they always win either.  Traditionally rebellions fail(civil war), but we will attempt a more even sort of balance, implying a more even split among the races for the sake of game balance.

Edit in response to timmaigh's edit: 

First, i've been a strong supporter of developers adding in random map player decided positioning that doesn't require a player to see the map ahead of time(see my thread https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/420555).

This idea is for any player in a protected economy spot, so in games of 3v3-5v5.  If this eco player is a TEC rebel, they will have a planetary land grab while still being protected at their flanks.  ALL their allies need to do is play defensively to hold the line and suffer few losses, while that eco player turns a profit.  Then, once this has occurred the game will be won by brute force numbers alone with little to no skill involved.  This is just luck at the moment.  I am saying, increase the chances that both sides get an eco player in the eco spot with TAR(by having all the rebel factions have it, a 50% chance) and / or implement a system online where players can choose their starting locations.

Also, a government is implied, as there are "wars", there is "diplomacy" etc...these are all ideas requiring governments, there is no anarchy here, even in rebellions.

Yeah, but as i said, the loyalist designation does not make sense. I believe they are called loyalists, because they are loyal to their old doctrine (not necessarily to government). But can you be loyal to something, or only to someone? If only to someone, than it would imply, the old doctrine = government´s doctrine, but as i said, there is no mention about this in the lore (afaik).

I'd estimate the TEC and Advent Loyalists are the more numerous of their respective factions. The Rebels can compensate for that with their pirate/militia support and necromancy, respectively.

Vasari could go either way, and I doubt the two subfactions really have ill-will towards eachother.

On that note, the Advent Rebels are interesting because they're the only race that really fit the traditional definition of rebel, they're directly going against and attacking the Loyalists. Neither of the other race's Rebels are doing that, TEC just want the aliens dead and Vasari just want to form the Super Friends.

@ haze and @ timmaigh

ya he pretty much made the point before i could timmaigh 

Lol @ "super friends"

good conversation, great replies.

Let's start this again form the top:

TEC Loyalists:  Isolationists that prioritize defending their territory and holding ground to wait out the storm

TEC Rebels:  Xenophobes that argue extermination of other races is path to long-term security

Advent Loyalists:  Maintain current path of exacting revenge on TEC

Advent Rebels:  Abandon hardline position against TEC and reform the Unity

Vasari Loyalists:  Continue running away, maintain "slash and burn" strategy and prepare to move on from this sector

Vasari Rebels:  Change status quo, consider allying with other races to face Vasari Enemy

There is nothing about these descriptions that demands the "Rebels" to be "Rebel-like" in that they are insurgents fighting "guerilla" style or something like that....nor is there anything in these descriptions to even suggest that the "Rebels" would cooperate with with TEC militia...

Lore wise, the game takes place in TEC space, with the Advent and Vasari as invaders...if anyone is going to be friendly with militia units (which lore-wise should predominantly be TEC units), it would be TEC and TEC only...from a lore perspective, there is just no grounds to give TAR to a non-TEC faction...

If you are hell bent on giving the "Rebels" all a Rebel-like technology on the premise that they are "rebels", give them something comparable to insurgency....this can be easily implemented by creating different "Rebellion" templates in the gameinfo where some templates are Advent units, some TEC, and some Vasari....as long as the technologies give the appropriate entity modifier (ie Rebellion Strength 500% to use the template listed 5th) a faction will only induce rebellions of its unit type...

@seleucia

Except for history seleucia.  You are taking away from the ruling classes power base, and therefore there WILL BE negative reprisals.  Look at the bible...look at history...you don't rebel and expect to have everyone have "happy fun playtime, goodbye friend" feelings. 

Did you rebel from your parents when you were growing up?  Did they try and smack you down a bit to maintain authority?  I know mine did, and it was still a loving relationship.  They still used force and psychological warfare tactics on me and my brothers though.  If this occurs in families, do you think it doesn't occur when relationships are even more formal (in government)?

btw, i'm not hell bent, i'm stating my position and responding to people who have questions.  I just have the time at the moment.

none that i've stated yet.  this is actually the easiest aspect of it.  These story ideas are better because they are more player action oriented, meaning the players will get the feel of participating in the game and "living" the storyline.   Sins has always done this, i'm not introducing anything new to the existing storyline implementation into the game.

TEC Loyalists- Prefer to hold out against the storm, but some offensive will be needed to deal with the rebel pirate scum.  -insert evil palpatine cackle here-

TEC Rebels- We've gotta spread the word or die! The loyalists are on our ass.  We need to preach fear and gain allies among the weak militia's and/or pirates out in space or die trying.

Advent loyalists-Rebels forsaking the unity is the greatest threat to the unity (this would be a priority... for them..lol).  Rebels must die, we will bomb them from existence.  We are run by cold hearted ice queens with telepathic powers.

Advent rebels-We are forsaking the unity because the unity is corrupt, we are the martin luther's of our time(yes the advent are still related to the TEC, sharing some of their history...)!! Time to win as many hearts and minds to our cause so that the true unity will not perish!!!

Vasari Loyalists-  Self preservation, adios amigos!! honestly i would say most of the majority of the vasari CIVILIAN population would favor staying alive (they are after all descendants of the ones who ran away in the first place...). Ignore the fighting as much as possible, get the heck out of dodge.  Gotta deal with the rebels first though, so they don't give everyone our secrets (because the players will actually be facing them while playing sins).

Vasari Rebels-The vasari military on the other hand would favor fighting the enemy, because they are tired of running and want more respect/importance from their people because they failed their people in the past.  They would likely be the stronger of the two factions militarily.  They would need to spread the word to all the alien worlds quickly to form up to stand together to fight against the impending doom.

I believe it when I type it, these are all around much more player inclusive storyline plots.

Here we go with nuances:

TEC rebels Truce among rogues abilities: TEC rebels ally with pirate factions and therefore are easily able to expand like wildfire in a dry forest.  After all the TEC rebels are a lot like pirates themselves, standing up for the dispossessed.

Advent rebels Truce among rogues:  The true unity needs to be heard by all, the advent rebels render local militias friendly when their culture hits their worlds, allowing for a slower(then the TEC rebels) but powerfully defensive truce among rogues expansion.

Vasari rebels Truce among rogues: The vasari would expand using their diplomatic envoys, that would have a new special ability.  This envoy would represent the vasari's attempt at diplomatic unification to face the impending approach of their enemies.

This ability would render the local militia friendly to the vasari, allowing them to quickly colonize planets.

Like i said before, TAR is a VERY GOOD IDEA, because it can be expanded and at the same time retain a unique aspect of each race.  The expansion for every rebel faction would play much differently and require a measure of skill to boot.