Kill the Survey Ship

If this hasn't already been posted, I will be very much surprised.  But as I can't find another thread on this topic...

The Survey Ship (or Flagship, if you prefer) is a little weird to me.  Big-ass hull for the era, with modules that are months away at best.  Years, probably.  And they eat up anomalies WAY before you can build a second, so a second is never built. 

The solution seems simple.  Get rid of it!  You want an explory-type ship, start with a scout.  Those are actually starting ships, after all.  Add some incentive to the Sensors line! 

If a modder is thinking, "Hey, good idea," then I have one more suggestion.  Make the Survay module a little cheaper, and move it to Sensors II.  Make it a little earlier, that way. 

Anybody else think this?

22,146 views 13 replies
Reply #1 Top

I'm not quite sure what the point you're making is.

Reply #2 Top

If a modder is thinking, "Hey, good idea," then I have one more suggestion.  Make the Survay module a little cheaper, and move it to Sensors II.  Make it a little earlier, that way.

Survey module is Sensors (I) already.

Even in TA on Very Slow research, it doesn't take but at most perhaps 4-6 months (16-24 turns) to make a competitive survey ship, since all you really need is ion drive and sensors I.  Adding sensor components is almost laughable, and it's not like you need advanced support when another basic will do instead.  As for the hull, cargo is better suited to the purpose anyway, although prior to TA's HP modules they're not as good as fighters after picking up experience anomalies.

At least ever since anomalies started respawning in DA 1.7ish (or was it 1.8ish), I've never known someone to forgo making additional survey ships entirely.  But your flagship is only one ship; plenty of us tech to survey ships as fast as possible in order to get more coverage.

Reply #3 Top

And besides, your original survey flagship would probably be lost by the end of the game due to the fact that they tend to wander into enemy territory, making them easy prey. You would need replacements.

Reply #4 Top

If this hasn't already been posted, I will be very much surprised.

Cue surprised face....

And they eat up anomalies WAY before you can build a second

This is bad how? Early game anomalies can make or break a game?

I don't know how you play, but one of the first ships i build is another survey ship. Within about 10 turns you can tech enough for a bit better engine tech, more min bonuses and the survey module. For the hull, who would use anything but a cargo hull?

Anybody else think this?

No.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Neilo, reply 4

This is bad how? Early game anomalies can make or break a game?

I don't know how you play, but one of the first ships I build is another survey ship. Within about 10 turns you can tech enough for a bit better engine tech, more min bonuses and the survey module. For the hull, who would use anything but a cargo hull?

I agree. Building more survey ships to gather all of the anomalies can give you an advantage you need to beat your enemies.

Reply #6 Top

Also, those bonus things that give money or bonuses respawn periodically in the games I play.

I generally keep 3 - 5 cargo hull survey ships active all game long.  They are key in suicidal games.

Additionally, one can do "emergency" conversions of survey ships to colonizers or constructors to grab valuable planets or resource anomalies (esp the green and red ones), respectively.

Reply #7 Top

Permit me to perhaps explain my thoughts:  The Survey Ship is totally out of place compared to its contemporaries.  There should be an impetus to research for it, rather than just handing one out to everyone - the thing requires Sensors IV and Medium Scale Building to build! 

To put this in some perspective, I've only played DL for some time now - DA and TA is so far gone that the arguments fly over my head. Don't stop using them, but remember I may not catch all the nuances.

Now, I'd failed to notice that the module itself arrives at Sensors I.  I think I'd always thought that it had sensors from Sensors I and the Survey module from Sensors IV.  My bad. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make runs thus:  It's ridiculously advanced, and not giving one to anyone allows (or forces) a divergence in strategies:  Spend time building a Surveyor vs. spending it settling worlds or building starbases. The anomalies are valuable, and denying everyone the right to harvest them instantly cheapens them.

And secondly, the ship itself is too advanced.  Make it cargo-hulled, and nerf the sensors on it.  Sensors I sensors, if we're shooting for consistency.  Else, you have one ship, tough to begin with, that generally toughens up further, and when it upgraded, you (not to mention your enemies) have this ridiculously hardy cruiser that'll stand up to four factory-made ones like it.  Works for a story like Goodbye to an Old Friend, but seems drastically out of place in the game, running around with this God-like ship.

So I think it should be changed.  And yes, I'm working on it.

Reply #8 Top

Since the AI does not know how to build survey ships, getting rid of it outright would be a terrible idea.

Reply #9 Top

And it's a level playing field, it's the same for everyone, i see no reason to change it. If it bothers you that much, sell the ship on turn 1 and go ahead and build your lesser ship.
Problem solved. (if there was one to begin with...)

Hang on, let me back up. You do realize that the AI know where all the planets are don't you? I can't recall the debate about this, it was 6 years ago, but if you take away your Survey ship you only nerf your own ability to scout and explore. The AI will colonize at the same pace.

Quoting talonschild, reply 7
It's ridiculously advanced, and not giving one to anyone allows (or forces) a divergence in strategies: Spend time building a Surveyor vs. spending it settling worlds or building starbases. The anomalies are valuable, and denying everyone the right to harvest them instantly cheapens them.


Huh? Everyone gets a Survey ship? Everyone has the same ability from turn 1 to get anomalies. I don't follow you here.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting talonschild, reply 7
And secondly, the ship itself is too advanced. Make it cargo-hulled, and nerf the sensors on it. Sensors I sensors, if we're shooting for consistency. Else, you have one ship, tough to begin with, that generally toughens up further, and when it upgraded, you (not to mention your enemies) have this ridiculously hardy cruiser that'll stand up to four factory-made ones like it. Works for a story like Goodbye to an Old Friend, but seems drastically out of place in the game, running around with this God-like ship.

If it bothers you that much, then mod the GC2Ships.xml. The survey ship, and all the others, are in there. The necessary components can be found in GC2Types.xml.

Quoting qrtxian, reply 8
Since the AI does not know how to build survey ships, getting rid of it outright would be a terrible idea.

Beg your pardon!? The AI may not use survey ships as good as the player, but it certainly knows how to build them. I've seen the AI building plenty of tiny hull scouts, outfitted with survey modules.

Maybe it has something to do with my change of the requirement for survey modules from Sensors to Stellar Cartography. <_<

Reply #11 Top

Quoting talonschild, reply 7
There should be an impetus to research for it, rather than just handing one out to everyone

  Only on tiny galaxies is one survey ship (just) enough.  I use my starting survey ship with its range and sensors to manually explore (with some small detours for anomalies);  no way do I rely on it for surveying.  I had played many GalCivII games before I noticed it could be medium upgraded later.

  I think it is good for the gameplay.

Quoting talonschild, reply 7
Spend time building a Surveyor vs. spending it settling worlds or building starbases.

  Already.  In most of my games it is building surveyors vs. building freighters;  after research choice being sensors (for the survey module) vs. everything else.  Well,  much of the game is building/researching this vs. building/researching that.

  btw I set "anomalies" to max for my DA metaverse games.

Reply #12 Top

I've decided to mod the components on the survey ship down a bit.  Not as much range, basic Hyperdrives instead of Ion Drives and no extra sensors.  Leaving it as a medium hull though because if you want to upgrade it you're going to have to research that anyway.

Reply #13 Top

I'm kind of torn as I would like to go for some of the Plague deals but then. Ship Asbestos  . I'll have to wait ages, instead I could buy/trade from people who already have the models and get them now. Hmm... :bebi: