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[.86][Feedback] City Improvement Review

[.86][Feedback] City Improvement Review

 

There are alot of buildings, but many of them are not worth using. I would ask that the current buildings be changed to offer some more interesting gameplay. This is mostly a critique of the current buildings and  how I would change them to add more interesting options to the game.

 

From A to H:

 

Adventurer's Guild

25% chance to get 1XP. -25% to recruiting cost. -1 Gildar per turn. The reduction to recruiting is not revealed to the player. A big no no. I would give a straight 1XP per turn because .25XP per turn means it will not ever effect the game. Leaving a hero in the city is a huge opportunity cost in and of itself. 1XP per turn would still take hundreds of turns to get to level 4. That seems like a good balance. The maintenance is fine considering the recruitment cost reduction. On a player level, I love that I can now focus on heroes as a strategic choice. I have an improvement and a line in the tech tree. The only other thing I would like is for this building to have a unique version for citylevelup that is more effective. I would also like this to unlock Balanced Sword and Balanced Ax at level 4 cities. This kind of building should reward larger cities.

 

Almshouse

+1 Diplomatic Capital, +1 Prestige, -3 Gildar. A nice option for diplomatic nations. I would make it cost 2 Gildar per turn in maintenance though, since otherwise the opportunity cost is too prohibitive, given that I have a fair supply of these resources in every game. This is just a minor bonus. On that note, buildings like these should add a +1 to diplomacy with Kingdoms. It would add an interesting way to have make peace during a war. Sure we sacked and enslaved your people, but look how well we are treating the survivors of your capital!

 

Amethyst Vault

+1 Crystal per turn, -3 Gold per turn. The building is a nonstarter. The trade is not fair, thus no one will ever want this building. It would be better as +2 Crystal, -1 Gold. That way the player is getting something valuable enough to choose. Labor should be medium, rarity medium, level 3 city. It would also be nice to have a reduction to the cost of Crystal for trained units. It only seems fair since metal has this option.

 

Ancient Temple (Warning: Strategic Resource NOT Balanced Since Last Update!)


+2 Mana. It needs to be 3-5 since otherwise it is so much less valuable than current shards that give 3 mana and one elemental mana point. Also, your tooltip says it provides +2 Crystal. That really bothers me.

 

Apothecary

+3 Research per material, -1 Gildar per turn, 3 potions added to shop. I love the idea of this building. Give those materialistic cities some research and add items to the shop. But it needs to scale the available items with city level. I often get this in the early game, but it falls flat after the healing potions are too weak to matter and I can cast growth with mages. Also, the cost is too prohibitive for potions. But that is an issue with item value in general. Every items needs to cost 10% of what it currently does to balance with the amount of gold a city can produce. And don't be afraid to add some epic potions. Hf made one that is reusable, but only once per battle. It's a Hanukkah miracle!

 

Archivist

+20% research when Queue is empty, -1 Gildar per turn. This is a good option for large cities on the edge of the game that can't produce units for the front lines. But when it is building something, it costs money and offers no bonus. Either give it another function that always works, or have not maintenance. It would be nice to get scrolls from such a building.

 

Arena

+1 Influence, 25% chance for trained units to get 1XP. The influence thing is nice, but once again, it should be 1XP every turn considering how long it takes to level and that I could just as easily send these units out to gain XP much faster. Plus, we are paying alot now to have good units. Keeping them in a city should either be free or offer some techs and buildings that make that a reasonable option.

 

Armorer

-50% cost of metal and labor for armor. Great building. I would rather it be available only to towns with a Blacksmith, rather than requiring a level 4 city. There should not be so much incentive for massive cities as means for production in the late game. Small, highly productive cities should be able to build things like this to validate the choice of many small cities. This is a late game tech. No reason balance it with early game situations.


Bakery

+1 Grain, -1 Materials, +10 Food per grain, unlocks Bread in the shop. I love this building. There needs to be more strategic trades like this for cities so I can specialize them. The thing is that it is only valuable in the later parts of the game where you have enough production from population to sacrifice materials. I would add 2 to city growth so that there can be a huge bonus to choosing this in the early game. You are basically neutering this city's production efforts. A medium labor cost would add some great opportunity cost, essentially making the player resign this city to civilization building at the cost of a good military. That is the choice you need to create. Make the option a medium rarity and at the level 2 citylevelup choices. Level 3 should have better bonuses and this building should be chosen in the early years of a city.

 

Barracks

-25% training costs, +1 Initiative for garrisoned units, -1 Gildar per turn. This building is expertly avoided by experienced players. The bonus in no way justifies the maintenance cost. 1 Gildar is a big investment in the early game. We have no tax base to afford such a cost until the midgame, after Act II. I would get rid of the cost and chalk this one up to good warfare research. We are already paying for the food and housing of our units. A Barracks is just better organization. It should also add units to the garrison of city guards in addition to the Initiative bonus. I would also like to see a higher labor cost so that material cities can easily build one in the early game, while grain cities have to grow first. That would better differentiate warfare minded choices.

 

Bell Tower

+1 to Influence, +1 city defender. It would be much more desirable to have this tower to offer archer units to a city's defense. Having to set archers in every city is a major cost for the player right now. This building should offer some archers to the mix of defense so that a defensive nation can avoid the detrimental costs of large armies. The influence increase is not that logical. I would much rather a +1 Initiative (the bell warns of oncoming attackers and weddings historically), and maybe even +5 to city's sight radius. This should be the go to for a defensive nation and long distance cities.

 

Blacksmith

+1 Materials, -10 Metal, -1 Gildar per turn. One of the best buildings to fundamentally change the production level of the entire nation. This is the Factory improvement of Civilization games. It is a sort of industrial revolution in the midgame that every nation either jumps on or is left in the dust. The only thing I would balance is the cost. 10 Metal means nothing in cost, and Gildar is a more than fair trade for this much production gain. I can't tell if this building is supposed ton offer a huge game changer at no cost or if it is a poorly implemented trade off. For making it a game changer, I would like warfare techs to not need this tech as a prereq. Why in gods' names are we forcing the warfare nations to be civics experts? Just let them develop their own warfare driven version of this building or let it unlock from both trees. If it is a error of trade offs, I would make it -1 metal per turn. Metal is abundant enough now that this would be a fair exchange. A static cost of 120 Metal is also a good choice. But don't make it so easy to build in every city right away. That unbalances the game too much and prevents an excellent opportunity for strategic choice for miner nations and other nations alike.

 

Brewery

-3 Gildar, Unlocks Pubs in every city. Love this concept. I would like more of the Civilization Tree to offer a single, high labor building, that unlocks new options in every city. Spot on direction by the devs. But the first building offers me no bonus. It should give that city 3 to growth. The game is right to be stingy with growth, but there should be some one per faction buildings that do offer it to one or megacities. Best new building of beta 2. Oh, and broke record here... add beer to city shop!

 

 Castle

 +3 to Initiative, +20% Defense. Castles should do more for a city. I would like to get some archers and defenders from this. The trade off should be a very high labor cost to build it, so I have to choose between an army and a good defense. Also, it should be available at level 3 so that I can better defend my materials focused cities. I will suggest that every wall option be available one level lower for this reason.

 

College

+2 Intelligence, +20% Research. This tech is great for civic minded civs. It offers a good bit of leveling power to their units and some good defense against magic. It also increases research as expected. The only problem is that it is under an extremely expensive tech, Research. So it is only available in the endgame and not very useful as only level 4 cities can build this. I am fine with the level requirement, but either balance the tech to have less of a cost, or put the College in the previous tech and put University here. Also, point of fact, Universities predate Colleges by quite a bit. Maybe switch the names.

 

Command Post

-2 Gildar per turn, +1 level for all trained units. I love the idea, but it should also increase the level of all city guards. The maintenance is fair at that point, otherwise reduce it to 1 maintenance for the sake of usability. Also, a high labor cost is a must as it is a midgame building. It should take a little bit to get this bonus at the cost of troops that could have been trained.

 

Docks

+5 Food per Grain, +10% Gildar. It is nice that rivers add a bonus here. But the building offers nothing pertinent to my city. The gildar gains are minimal and the food is negligible. I would rather docks be a more significant bonus to food, with perhaps no bonus to money. +15 Food per grain or even a straight bonus of 100 Food would be more significant to a city. Again, a smoked fish health item should be possible. Maybe a Canoe to increase movement along rivers.

 

Embassy

 +1 Diplomatic Capital per turn. I would like this building to add a +1 to relations for all factions in the diplomacy screen. It should be a way to reduce the diplomatic problems with my nation. DiploCap will do this too slowly considering how let in the game we get access to this tech.

 

Ereog's Tower

+1 Air Mana, 0 Enchantment Maintenance Multiplier. The description of this building does not tell us what it does. A major problem. It increases our Airshard number and allows this city to have all enchantments for free according to the xml. It is still unclear if this is for all cities or just this one. I would guess just this one. If that is the case, this is a great building. The tower design is lackluster though. I can make much cooler tile designs and I don't have the Elemental Editor to line up objects perfectly or deal with height logically. I would also like +2 Air power as Air only increases a few bonuses. One is too few. Oh, and how about a few items that specialize in air magic?

 

Farmer's Market

+1 Gildar per Grain, -1 Food per Grain. Nice addition to the game. This building provides civic minded nations a much needed bonus to gildar. The only thing I would balance is -5 Food per Grain because -1 is really just an aesthetic value. Oh, and this should unlock a few mixed category or random items to the shop. Farmer's Markets often trade food for things other than gildar.

 

Fort

+3 Initiative for defenders, +20% defense. Once again, add defenders, level 3 prereq instead of level 4. I also think that each faction should only be able to build certain levels of walls. Pariden for instance should only reach Hedge Walls, giving them a refined hedge look and making them uniquely noticeable on the map. Then they can add a magical Ice Wall later in the game. That is some very easy faction difference to add. It is not what you add sometimes, but what you take away.

 

Fortress

+4 Initiative for defenders, +25% defense. Once again, add defenders, level 4 prereq instead of level 5. Fortress should be the mark of an impenetrable city. Seeing those stone walls should strike fear into the heart of any assailants. Archers, Catapults, and well armored defenders should be added. A mere defensive bonus is not enough. Oh, and it should be a very long building process. Seeing this in a city's queue might be justification enough for war. And a "Those sure are some high walls..." bonus of +1 should be added to diplomacy. And if another faction has one, "That's not a wall. This is a wall..." penalty should be added until you build at least one.

 

Gallows

-10% Unrest. A simple choice that really puts the pressure on other citylevelup options. I would rather it have +20% Unrest, +40% production. Stringing people up for civil infractions does not reduce unrest, it masks it. Just like a Prison.

 

Garden

+10 Food per Grain. I do not like that this has so crudely been switched to a citylevelup choice. It offers me no more than 60 food even in my most grainful city. Pretty much a shit option that prevents me from getting one more choice at citylevelup. You should avoid that kind of lemming choice making. Either make it a great bonus, or have it add straight grain to a city and be rather rare. There is only one instance where a level 2 city would be able to make it over the city level hump, but we have no way of knowing that when we choose this option because food is not displayed on citylevelup.

 

Granary

+20 Food per Grain. This is something every nation will get access to because it is in the prereq line for many midgame techs in the Magic and Warfare Tree. That is fine if that's how you want to organize things, but this building is not a choice, it's a bonus from tech. Since we already get a +10 Food per Grain for this tech, it makes more sense to have this building cost a high amount of labor. That creates an opportunity cost that only civic minded nations will choose. The bonus should then be increased to 30 Food per Grain. And let's take this opportunity to give civic minded nations some interesting unit differences. +3 Constitution for all units trained in this city or a straight +4 Con trait for unit design would be a great way to say, "Hey, what you build is who you are." Call it "Well Fed" or "Breadsmen." 

 

Great Arena

+3 Prestige, All units trained in this city get +3 Strength and Constitution, -6 Gildar per turn. This is a cool building option, but the gains are not worthy of a level 5 citylevelup choice. Those choices need to affect the whole nation. This one is better suited to level 4. Otherwise, increase the it to +6 Prestige, and +3 Str and Con for all trained units in the nation. And get rid of that damned 6 maintenance cost. Citylevelup bonuses should not cost a crapload of money, especially an entertainment one that should be adding to my coffers.

 

Great Mill

+25% Food and Production, +1 Prestige. There needs to be alot more wonders of the realm. This particular one needs some beef. I would say +50% and a higher labor cost. It should also offer a bonus to all units trained in this city so you have to make the choice between units and buildings getting this bonus a serious one. Maybe +2 Strength would be appropriate? And I would go for +3 Prestige. This is a major accomplishment. Let's help out those civic minded nations!

 

Guardian Statue

+1 Magical Defender, -1 Gildar per turn. There should be at least 10 different special defenders available throughout the tech trees. This one is a great start, but it should scale with the city level and techs. Otherwise it is useless. Also, Crystal or Mana would seem to be the right maintenance cost, not gildar please.

 

Guild Tribunal

+1 Gildar per material, +5 Production per Material, -1 Gildar per turn. First off, get rid of the maintenance, it doesn't make sense for this building. It should be adding to my coffers. It also has no city level requirement, which clashes with every other part of the game. This is an endgame one per faction building. Yet, it doesn't have any sort of epic feel to it. I am left severely wanting. This type of building should be something wars are fought over. It should have a city level 4 requirement, it should affect the whole nation and it should offer some huge differences to units that are trained and buildings that are available. Maybe units are extremely easy to train. Maybe the Guild attracts a certain number of special units from across the realm. Maybe money and production become side notes to your well formed civilization. The point is that we should be able to assume that the magic and warfare minded nations will not have access to this tech. Thus it should be the counterbalance to their endgame bonuses. Basic Idea: Civics produce many, Warfare produces well equipped and highly trained units, Magic produces magically enhanced units. There is certainly room for crossover, but the endgame is about how my choices have made my nation unique. Guilds would seem to be the natural expression of this goal.

 

Hedge Wall

+2 initiative, +10 Defense. should be level 2 prereq, and offer a defender. Should be the only wall option for nations not concerned with warfare or defense in general (Altair, Pariden).

 

Hedigah Bathhouse

+1 Water Mana, -30% Unrest. This is a very strange addition. If we are going to do this, let's do it right. Make it a level 4 citylevelup rather than 5. Add some unique bonuses to units trained here, like health regeneration and Constitution bonuses. Make Unrest -10%, too much of that going around. Now add some interesting potions from the springs that are free due to the ease of crating them here. Now we are cooking with water!

 

Hosten's Library

+30% Research, -3 Gildar per turn. The maintenance is too high. It should be only 1-2 and the building needs more than just a boring research bonus. Considering this is a citylevelup option, it needs some flair, say 20 pieces or so? Have it unlock some powerful scrolls in the shop. Give trained units an Intelligence bonus. That might make it competitive with the other options at level 4. For level 5, the bonuses need to be faction wide.

 

I will do the rest later. There really are alot of them and they could all use some love.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

45,572 views 67 replies
Reply #26 Top

The forums desperately need a "follow thread/notification" option. I can't bookmark every interesting/informative thread.

 

 

Reply #27 Top

T-Z

 

Town Hall

-25% Maintenance, -10% Unrest. City Maintenance is only good when maintenance costs are too high. In .87 this is the most important level 4 building. In my opinion Maintenance reduction is probably better at -50% to matter more for cities that have lots of training buildings. It might also be better to increase Gildar and Maybe -20% Unrest. It should allow higher taxes to have a Gildar bonus. Then you would have to use other buildings to increase research and production.

 

Training Yard

+5 Accuracy for trained units. This is a good choice for a training city. But units get +2 Accuracy per level. It's nice to guarantee hits with this building. It is great to be able to choose this when you know a city is not going very far beyond troop training. But Dodge is not currently scaling with Accuracy, so this is not all that useful. I would add some Dexterity to the bonus until the stats are better balanced.

 

Underforge

+1 Earth Mana, -50% Armor production costs. This citylevelup bonus reduces maintenance costs due to labor. Since Labor is making wages too high, this effectively allows several more armies to be made, and quickly at that. Plus you get an extra Earthshard power for Stoneskin. But once the labor=wages crisis is fixed, this bonus is much less useful. +2 Earth Mana and -33% Armor costs for all cities would make this a true level 5 option. Otherwise make it level 4. 

 

Academy of Revelation

+30% Research, +3 Intelligence for trained units, -3 Gildar per turn. The cost is reasonable, but the labor cost is too low. Wonders should have ridiculous labor costs. I think the Maintenance could be lost or reduced to 1. You should pay labor, not gildar for this. Since this kind of building will likely be set aside to get the +20% Research when there is no construction.

 

University

+20% Research, +2 Intelligence for trained units, -3 Gildar per turn. Same situation. Except this is not a wonder, its in the chain of extraneous research buildings. There could probably be half as many. The maintenance cost should once again be reduced and labor should be raised.

 

War College

-25% Training Cost for units, Trained units get Enmity (+25% Attack against Fallen/Man), Stationed trained units have a 25% chance to get 1 XP, -2 Gildar per turn. A one per faction building that has some gusto to it. The only problem is that <BonusValue>25</BonusValue> is used instead of <Operator>25</Operator>. Once this bug gets fixed, it is the same for Adventurer's Guild I guess, this will be a great boon for Warfare minded Kingdoms.

 

Warrior Temple

-25% Training Cost for units, Stationed trained units have a 25% chance to get 1 XP, -1 Gildar per turn. The Empire's answer to War College. This one correctly uses the operator function for the XP. It is gained from rituals, which is quickly becoming the best tech for the Empire. A nice little building for a growing empire.

 

Watermill

+10 Food per Grain, +2 Production per material. It is nice to have the rivers add something to a city. There should be more citylevelup buildings that do this, but are rather rare and powerful. This one has no Labor hardly. It should have a medium labor cost and offer slightly more production per material. This idea needs to be expanded to make terrain matter more. Do what do devs.

 

Weaponsmith

-50% labor cost for weapons, -50% metal costs for metal, -1 Gildar per turn. Not nearly enough labor cost for such a powerful war machine. This one should take at least 3000 labor. Great building though. I would like a series of these to allow a level 5 city to only pay 10% metal costs for units. The war machine should get crazy powerful at level 5.

 

Wooden Wall

Same as Hedge wall, but for Empires. Nothing new to say.

 

Workshop

+3 Production per Material, -1 Gildar per turn. Not a significant source of production. Get rid of the Maintenance. Increase production and make the labor cost high. The choice should be between many units right away, or waiting and having some good production power. +8 Production per Material wold be nice. Give those 3/4 spots some use.

 

That's the end. I am looking forward to the changes in the next version. I have been play testing these suggestions and they make the strategic level much more interesting. The AI is a powerhouse now. I have yet to balance the AI tags, but I have also yet to beat the AI to a single world wonder. They seem to rush for Merchantcross Bazaar and Great Mill as if nothing else matters. I love it. It makes two of the other factions very powerful. Their armies are much better since they are no longer getting raped by maintenance costs and they seem to tech better throughout the game. My suggestions have increased fun by an order of 10. Hope the basic design philosophy of high labor, low maintenance, better bonuses is something recognized by the devs. It is especially nice to know they are at least listening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #28 Top

Where is frogboys promised response?? :P

Reply #29 Top

I don't know. It seemed like he responded with some videos this weekend in another thread. He at least listened to the maintenance costs issue in the early game. I though perhaps if I finished he would post his thoughts when he has some time. Seems like he is CEO busy mostly early in the week based on previous data.

To the devs: I would be happy to send you a mod I made to test these suggestions if you want to try them out. I am still working on nailing down labor values and AI values, but perhaps you guys would like some of my xml implementations and use them for future testing? 

Reply #30 Top

Excellent and thoughtful OP

k1

I agree that too many buildings have maintinance costs for meh bonuses and would love to see some better buildings with costs of metal/mana/crystal, as well as more items in shops from unique buildings

There is some underused aspects of city building I would like to see expanded as well, such as bonuses from terrain. The starting location bonus should not be 1 building that is immediatly available.

Skath Pit

Can only be build by cities adjacent to rivers/swamps

maintinance 1

+20 food per grain and unlocks skath mounts in shop


Siege Factory

Requires Lumbermill

Allows acess to catapults

 

Windmill

Must be built on Hill

+5 production per material

+5 food per grain

Reply #31 Top

Definitely think Scath pits should allow Scath mounts!!! Cool :)

Reply #32 Top

I like the idea of making hills important too. ^^

Reply #33 Top

Skath would be a smart resource addition. Why not have it be the same as horses and wargs. but more rare?

Reply #34 Top

Why should it be the same as horses or Wargs?

Or do you mean the same as in a resource on the map ...

Scaths are stronger than either Wargs or Horses (extra weight carry AND extra initiative) ... and should probably have a bonus to melee attack as well.

Reply #35 Top

If skaths are made a mount than id like to see their resource only spawn in swamps.

For stats they should decrease encumbrance even more than horses, add a def or hp bonus and not increase movement.

Also allow them to move through rivers and swamps without penalty.

 

Reply #36 Top

maybe a resource that only appears in swamps, and a building only build-able upon rivers.

Reply #37 Top

I think this is all very interesting, but somewhat misses the point.  Right now the city development mechanic is a huge waste of my time.  Specifically, the business of placing each building and requiring each building to be touching each other.  Why are you making me do this?  If there were a lot of building types that required specific terrain features, it might be worthwhile.  But there are about what, 2, 3?  Dock and Lumbermill are the only 2 I can think of.

Additionally, the graphics aren't good enough for the cities to be visually interesting - each one is just a big square blot.

 

Please, either make placing city buildings an interesting part of the game by making it require actual thought and trade-off, or just get rid of it.  I would much much rather have a straight civ-style city with upgrades than this current mess.

 

That being said, what I would rather see is a city "core" that expands automatically as population grows - visibly showing the size of the city and giving you something to man and defend, then allowing you to place the city buildings anywhere within the ZOC of the city, with much more emphasis placed on benefits from buildings being adjacent to resources or other support buildings.

Make the base buildings provide less benefit, but combined benefits from good resource and building placement could make things much stronger.

And make it so enemies can destroy said buildings, and possibly receive coin or resources for doing so.  That makes raiding an effective strategy, too.

Reply #38 Top

The point is that this is a review of the current system and some suggestions on how I would change each building to force the players to make interesting choices. I said in my post that there should be more buildings related to terrain. There should be several things one can do with a forest or hill or river. Don't go expecting the entire system to change though. That is an unrealistic expectation. 

You are right about the current iteration being boring. My supposition is that labor costs are too low, which means there is no temporal opportunity cost. The only limiting factor is the overly high maintenance, which prevents players from wanting most buildings at any point in the game. Then there is the fact that only about 6 of these building options ever change anything for a city. That is the systemic problem. A lack of vision for citylevelup bonus buildings compounds this problem.

You can double click the building you want and it will auto-place it for you. The only benefit to city placement is reducing move costs, protecting resources, and blocking off choke points. Don't expect that to change. It sounds like your idea would add too much micromanagement to the system and take a long time to implement. 

 

Quoting wickedmurph, reply 37
And make it so enemies can destroy said buildings, and possibly receive coin or resources for doing so.  That makes raiding an effective strategy, too.

Raiding is possible right now. I often go after outlying resources at the beginning of a war in case I lose my initial forces. You can also use spells to destroy enemy buildings. The only thing I would add is some resource bonuses from the type of resource you are destroying. Some factions should be able to get half their resources from raids. I find that guerrilla warfare is too easy in the current beta.

Reply #39 Top

So...wheres the brothel. Are we adult enough to admit ever town village and hovel has at least one?

Reply #40 Top

Quoting enoeraew37, reply 39
wheres the brothel

Would that generate a 10% decrease in city unrest? 

Reply #41 Top

A brothel would probably decrease unrest by 10% (or 5%), increase gold by 1, and increase growth by 0.1

something like that in any case ....

- unrest

+ gold (low amount)

sliiiiiight +growth

Reply #42 Top

big unrest reduction

minor gold

% chance per season for any unit stationed in city to get minor negative trait (like when champs fall in battle)

Reply #43 Top

If champs can get negative traits for staying at a brothel, it shouldn't be anything serious like Typhoid, Battle Wounds, or Plague(etc) ... maybe one minor disease trait (-5% health?), a Drunken trait (-10% dodge and accuracy?), and a flavorful (positive) lustful trait to balance the other two out (+0.5 growth in garrisoned cities).

Perhaps lustful as a trait could have some negative connotations, but like in Crusader Kings II, it should be mostly positive :p

Reply #45 Top

Quoting enoeraew37, reply 42
% chance per season for any unit stationed in city to get minor negative trait (like when champs fall in battle)

This actually gave me an idea

Hospital

+2 health regeneration for garrisoned units

10% chance to remove a negative trait from a champion per turn

 

 

Brothels would really spice up the dynasty system if we still had it.....

 

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Stupidity10, reply 45
Hospital

+2 health regeneration for garrisoned units

10% chance to remove a negative trait from a champion per turn

That's an interesting idea for a way to remove negative traits. The time spent out of action would be a good opportunity cost.

 Here's another idea for a building.

Mage Guild: +3 Mana. Allows players to purchase Scrolls from the shop that grant first level magic traits, ie Fire I.

Reply #47 Top

I love the hospital idea too - with a chance to remove a negative trait.  We need more reasons to leave heroes in cities - and make the player feel torn between deciding whether to leave them there or not.

Reply #48 Top

SeanW3.  Why would that be an unrealistic expectation?  This part of the game is not fun.  It does not add much to the experience - it's pretty clearly a vestigial structure left over from WoM.  Obviously I can't look at the code, but there are already graphics for the city center and all the buildings, and you are recommending a rethink of all the bonuses and requirements of buildings anyways.  Can't be that much work to decouple the "they have to be next to each other" requirement at the same time.

Adding an auto-place function is a cop-out, but I've done similar stuff in the name of time vs benefit if necessary.  But the point of a beta is to point out parts of the game that are not enjoyable.  And there is basically nothing in the city development structure that is enjoyable.  And by enjoyable, I mean - that makes me think hard about what I'm doing, and make interesting decisions that require trade-offs.

Even heavily reworking the benefits that city buildings provide, it's basically the same thing.  Click in building I want to build (base decision on vague memories of what I'm doing in this city, because I can't see the city stats/bonuses when I'm selecting buildings), move tiny grey box around until it is in a space adjacent to the other tiny grey boxes.  Click mouse.  Slightly different tiny grey box appears, which doesn't matter because I can't make out any of the tiny grey boxes anyways.  Go back to exploring and killing monsters and doing interesting stuff.

As to raiding, it's marginally effective.  But since resources can be stockpiled, raiding resource nodes is only a marginal strategy.  Slow map movement further compounds this - you can't really get around fast enough to be very effective here.  Actually being able to destroy production buildings that enable units to be created is much more effective, and an interesting consequence of having the buildings actually on the play map.

I agree with you totally about maintenance costs, though.  It's schizophrenic to have some buildings cost ongoing gold, some to cost one-time metal, some resources to cost one-time gold cost, plus production costs.  I would like to see some more consistency there, and reduced/eliminated maintenance costs for buildings.  You could do that concurrently with a reduction in the gold income from population to more evenly balance overall gold distribution and make questing/exploring rewards more important.

Reply #49 Top

I really dislike snake cities, I do agree with seanw3 that the buildings should be fine tuned and matter more. 

I posted this and its my suggestion to how cities could work.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/419350

 

Reply #50 Top

I enjoy city building. That means we have a fundamentally different experience when we do it though. Different perspectives I guess, nothing wrong with that. To me, it makes sense that all buildings would be right next to each other for defensive purposes. Pretty much nobles have been doing this for thousands of years to avoid getting raided. I don't think it is at all likely to be implemented though, just because it would take alot of new coding and testing to change. They have said those kinds of things are off the table. Especially when many people like the building system in general.

You describe everything as grey boxes that don't affect each other. I find the detail level on buildings very enjoyable. I have disabled the zoom limits though, so I can get really close up. The idea is that the many buildings make up the overall look of a beautiful city. I believe they have done a good job on this front. The next task is to make each city stand out from the others with interesting features. It would be wonderful if they allowed buildings to upgrade with city level. The next beta version may even have people walking about the cities.

I don't like the idea of proximity as a basis for synergy. It creates too much micromanagement and takes too much time. The synergy needs to come from buildings working together to specialize a city. A mining city should be able to produce more metal as it chooses levelup bonuses and research is done in the tech tree. The devs have indicated this too is their direction. There should then be trade offs allowed like Blacksmith that consume some of that raw metal to increase production and offer new items in the shop. So the choice is between lots of raw material and increased production. In the late game there should be some more powerful and interesting buildings to add to a specialized city. So if you chose production, a building is available that requires a Blacksmith, Workshop, Lumbermill, and Weaponsmith. If you chose raw material, a building is available that requires Workhouse, Smelter, and Forge. That is the kind of synergy we need. These buildings should add a noticeable amount of smoke to the air above the city and show many fires below. I have a city in my current game that is unmistakable from the thick black smoke rising from its industrial district.

It would be wonderful to be able to gain small amounts of an enemy's stockpiles by raiding. But it would take some coding to achieve. This would have to be something Derek wants in the game so I really can't say it is likely. You should go after earth magic if you want to be able to raid though. They can use Earthquake to destroy buildings in a city. Water magic can freeze a city, halving resource gains and stopping construction. The combination is powerful.