The minority rules America: How to prevent such a thing?; America, meet the "NO" vote.

Voting "NO" for your most hated candidate

The idea is that... well here let me show you:

Party A consists of 60 people

   Candidate a1 has 35 people while a2 has 25

Party B consists of 40 people

  b1 has 39 while b2 has 1

Youll notice even though Party A outnumbers B, B wins.

Here is what I propose. No votes=half of normal vote. Heres what ends up happening:

A= 60 (has 30 negative votes)

B= 40 (has 20 negative votes)

This is what happens:

a1=25, a2=5

a2=24, a2=-14

Now, you can fiddle with the above example however you like, but the end result is the same (so long as party members dont vote no on their own parties candidates): the party that outnumbers the other will win... actually its not perfect and heres why:

If a1=30-10=20, B wins. But how often do you get a perfectly even split in a party's votes, and how often to you get 39/1 ratio in a party's votes? So you see, it works more or less.

10,547 views 8 replies
Reply #1 Top

Its extremely rare that two members of the same party compete for the same seat. If its an important office that is a sign that the party leadership has failed spectacularly in getting consensus, and almost guarantees defeat in a competitive election. Abraham Lincoln famously won the presidency this way when the democratic party split, allowing him to win the presidency with just the West and Northern states (as it happened four different people won electoral votes, being the most fragmented presidential race in history).

For all of its many faults, the primary system that the Republicans are enduring now is designed to ensure that the party eventually unites around one candidate, and in that it has mostly been successful. Thus I think your method will just needlessly complicate the vote in the 90-99% of cases where two members of the same party are not running against each other/

Reply #2 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 1

For all of its many faults, the primary system that the Republicans are enduring now is designed to ensure that the party eventually unites around one candidate, and in that it has mostly been successful. Thus I think your method will just needlessly complicate the vote in the 90-99% of cases where two members of the same party are not running against each other/

It could very well be needless if what your saying is true, but its definitely not complex... well... I mean it does give people a whole other choice that they have to make, but overall its not very complex at all.

Also, since people are going to "NO" vote the person they hate the most, the republicans will vote "NO" on the most liberal democrat, and democrats will vote "NO" on the most conservative republican, which is kind of good in a way since it means there will always be a more moderate person in office, which will serve to unite people a bit more.

Reply #3 Top

Or you could have a Democratic Government where the majority rules ... Oh Wait

Reply #4 Top

Quoting JCD-Bionicman, reply 2
It could very well be needless if what your saying is true, but its definitely not complex... well... I mean it does give people a whole other choice that they have to make, but overall its not very complex at all.

Also, since people are going to "NO" vote the person they hate the most, the republicans will vote "NO" on the most liberal democrat, and democrats will vote "NO" on the most conservative republican, which is kind of good in a way since it means there will always be a more moderate person in office, which will serve to unite people a bit more.

It seems to me what you are really suggesting is a form of "alternate/ranked vote" used in some parliamentary systems, and which voters in the UK just narrowly refused recently. It gives the voters the option in the case of # = 3 or more candidates to order them, such as that the first candidate gets # - 1 points, the second favorite gets # - 2 points, and the least favorite one gets no points of course. In effect it allows voters to punish a group that has widespread dislike but a decent sized group of core supporters, like yours does. This method is also a big boost to centrist parties or fringe parties as it allows voters to know that their vote isn't "wasted" by voting for a party unlikely to win.

Either way, given the current state of politics in America, both systems would really be a waste of time and tax dollars. In theory it isn't complex, but you are in fact doubling the number of things people counting votes have to tally would make elections more expensive, for almost no value in a two party system. In practice there is usually only two candidates who have any chance of winning, and in that case a negative vote would hardly register as someone who votes for a Republican will always no the democrat, and vice versa.

Reply #5 Top

There are some practical reasons why US founders formed a democratic republic as opposed to a pure democracy.  The situation and times they lived in guided them on that.

There were factions desiring peace and reunification with England...there were Colonial independence types who wanted the colonies to go their separate ways once independence was achieved and rule autonomously over themselves.  There were religious and antislavery groups who wanted universal law on their terms.  These and other blocs furiously labored to stir public opinion in their favor and as is true today would use sensational statements to stir public emotion to act.

These lobbying factions could keep a new country in a near state of anarchy--and look at all the new 'democracies' that are in places with traditional tribal and ethnic factions--they were pretty much right.  Even today with two parties, we are bogged down dealing with critical issues and can't resolve them.

The ancient Greeks had a pure democracy but they also had incredibly high expectations of citizens.

The reason in the US for parties was to force groups with agendas into one or two blocs of consensus so practical governance could occur without factional issues always being present.

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 4
It seems to me what you are really suggesting is a form of "alternate/ranked vote" used in some parliamentary systems, and which voters in the UK just narrowly refused recently. It gives the voters the option in the case of # = 3 or more candidates to order them, such as that the first candidate gets # - 1 points, the second favorite gets # - 2 points, and the least favorite one gets no points of course. In effect it allows voters to punish a group that has widespread dislike but a decent sized group of core supporters, like yours does. This method is also a big boost to centrist parties or fringe parties as it allows voters to know that their vote isn't "wasted" by voting for a party unlikely to win.

The Hare-Clark System ... 

Reply #7 Top


Changing the manner in which votes are wieghted may have some affect.   But the US system needs much more than that.

The USA electoral system has several basic faults that allow minority parties to take office (W bush, both terms, for example).  One is the electoral college and 'winner take all' (the votes) system thats in place on many levels. Re: votes cast for president: if popular vote, (as opposed to votes ground up and processed thru the electoral college system) were in place, many small mid western states, with very low populations, would find their 'influence' decreased.  Votes are not equal in the USA.  The vote of a citizen in, say, N. Dakota, weighs more than the vote of a citizen in large population states like TX, CA, NY. 

Ditch the electoral college, and make the voting for the US president a truly national vote, not a vote based on how well the politicians do in manipulating 'key' states in an attempt to 'manufacture' a majority in the elctoral college.

Secondly, the gerrymandering that is rampant in the system and is currently so acceptable now must end.  Fifty years ago, politicians were voted out of power because they abused the redrawing of district lines.  Now its so common.  Ever notice how districts often cut up cities, placing a small portion of the city population in with a very large surburban, rural population?  The effect of this is to guarentee that the poor people in the city have NO representive.  They can't pool their votes and elect even one of their own because they are divided into several chunks.  And each chunk is, within 'that' district a small minority.  Both major parties play this game...  (sadly).  Currently, its TX trying to minimize the hispanic-american vote.  And...

The new monster to rise and distort 'democracy' in the USA is the mating of corporate personhood and 'quiet money' financing of election campaigns.  Now Uber-corporations, (many of whom are not 'citizens' of the USA, but more interested in'global' markets,') can speak very loudly in election campaigns, via their immense wealth.   Their voice is louder than mine, and reaches many more possible voters than my voice can.  To make matters worse, the people have no idea who is really voicing an issue, as the uber-corp (and the entrenched plutrocracy that mostly controls corporate agendas) can now spend these mega millions of dollars secretly.  The very idea of privacy, which was intended to protect individuals from the power of organized groups (govt, military, etc) is now being used to shield uber-corps at the very time when technology is virtually eliminating individual privacy fro the masses of people.  (Oh, some individuals can have privacy if they are protected by the walls of a corporation.  "Its good to be the King."  LOL)

just a decade ago, one presidental candidate had issues because 'foreign' interests were contributing to his campaign. The GOP (Greedy 'Ol Plutocrats) were all over this candidate (Clinton, I think) for taking foreign money.  And I agreed with the GOP stance.  I'm not sure how foreign these corporate 'persons' are.  I havn't seen their birth certificates.  But their corporate policies seem to hurt main street americans and favor economic elites in many non-democratic countires.  Why can these 'uber-corps contribute to domestc campaings, and secretly at that? They shouldn't. 

SO thats it.  Popular vote for president, not an electoral college.  Districts with boundries that don't intentionally carve up groups so as to eliminate / dilute their voices.  Remove all private monies from campaigns, severly limit amounts non-individuals (corporate/associations/ etc.) can give, and/or limit to individual giving.  No privacy for corporations, associations, etc., when it comes to election issues.  And apply the RICO - conspiracy/ money laundering laws to corporations who meddle in elections. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #8 Top

In Australia I think any donation over $AU11,500 needs to be disclosed via the tax act.  The idea that you could spend millions or billions and have it kept secret is patently ludicrous (yet still possible unfortunately).