With all due respect, forget about mods for the moment. Let's discuss this in terms of just the vanilla game Rebellion.

Largely this question in my mind is easily answered in that the Rebel or Loyalist are your race's cultural outlook, their moral values (or lack there of) that are embraced. As it stands with Trinity all three races largely are the same and can offer or refuse ceasefires and pacts. With the ability in game to choose Rebel or Loyalist you are in a very real way heavily steering your cultural outlook and personal values of your people into either aggressive Rebel policies both militarily and in civilian structure of life or more defensive Loyalist policies.

I would be wary of saying Loyalist versus Rebel games as the TEC Loyalist does not seem to be friendly with the Advent Loyalists or the Vasari Loyalist etc. I view this style of game as a moot point to sway the Tech tree discussion one way or the other.

Maybe I'm making something out of nothing but how I've played other games that have this opportunity to either Rebel or pick a direction for research was a real treat and great fun. It offered up expansive tactical, strategic and universe immersive elements that just made the game that much better. When I start a game if I've chosen to be Rebel, and I find my neighbor is something in compatible but I want to be their friend, it just doesn't sit well. I'd like to be able to choose what values and therefore what research policies I would like to pursue in relation to the players and systems around me.

The other thing is does the Rebel/Loyal races share a common beginning and then branch off to separate ships/tech?

Or from the very begining ships and such are different?

I thought it was going to be more along the lines of you had a decision to make at some point mid game, and your other options would be greyed out.

If each race is determined at setup you could have just forgone  the whole Rebel/Loyalist stuff and made them different races entirely.

I think it is pretty logical to choose if you want to be a Rebel or a Loyalist from the very start of the game. Though only as long as a lot of stuff from the tech tree will be about the same as it is in the base faction. I think the main reason to choose one subfaction over another is because of diplomatic view, and shouldn't be because of certain subfactional advantages that you can exploit depending on your position on the map.

Like someone else posted earlier, choosing a subfaction at the very start of the game would force you into using all of its abilities and techs the best you can. That's exactly the way Sins should be played in my opinion.

The only thing I'm worried about is that mutually exclusive researches might not be needed under this system. I hope they're not scrapped.

I think it would be best to have the base faction intact able to choose sides in game, but also be able to select Rebel/Loyalist for those wanting to be locked into one or for players who want to be able specifically play against one. Of course in the big scale of things it just might be another thing a small group of players complain about that is really not important to the game (I.e. we need stronger pirates!!!), so I'm not going to take too strong a stance on this issue.

Choosing in game which side you want is more for multiplayer, where the particularities of the game depend could decide what faction is best to go for (certainly true of real world politics). Also if they set it up so certain subfactions have strong advantages and disadvantages to other subfactions (as in C&C generals), we could get a problem in multiplayer lobbies of people constantly wanting to switch their faction in response to what other people pick as their faction. Hence why I preferred an in game system like governments in Rise of Nations.

Honestly either way could work. Will work.

Personaly I am more bummed that a cool feature didnt make the cut, doesnt matter the reason. Im not in charge nor do I know what is best for the game. I was just looking forward to be able to choose ingame...from a RP perspective if nothing else.

I also wish for more open discussion about changes. Again if nothing else, to prevent a unobtainable view on what Rebellion is bringing to the table.

IMHO, this would of been a great chance to make one of those Dev blogs about this. Just a P.S.A. on how things are progressing and changing.

I think discussion will really start to get going after the beta is first released, whenever that will be...

I just don't want the Devs to feel trapped in a decision they've made (i.e. no in game rebel/loyalist choosing) when they get to beta. The example of Envoys versus Embasies in the Diplo beta is a good example of a game play mechanic that was significantly changed based on game functionality and player feedback. There is also the 1.2 patch that heavily changed the ways that pacts and relationships worked in diplo as well. Heck, going back to the days of Vanilla sins when the pirates were always on, that was an item that was changed as well based on dialogue between the community and the developers.

I hope that the steam sales as well as the attention they are getting help shore up the viewpoint that this community loves this game and this universe it is placed in. We're here because we love Sins of a Solar Empire and are just looking for some two way communication. This is our universe of a game almost as much as it is the dev's, just we're on the outside looking in to see what's coming next.

I doubt the devs will be trapped in anything.  In original sins beta for example there was only one research lab, cobalt model was used for scout and scout for light frigate, there was no advent at all, and resource roids RAN OUT of resources.  Also the tradeports didnt give credits per second, but rather gave some credits when a tradeship docked.  I'm pretty sure even if we are in beta that everything wills till be up in the air.

But my overall question remains, How would you describe the current faction we play as, Loyalist or Rebel? I would think loyalist because well, as its been said, they ARE your own empire.

-Æ

Heck I'm sure the developers could put both, much in the same way you have quickstart. have an option that when set one way turns on a UI block to set whether your loyalist or rebel and auto researches it for you when you load up, and when set another way, everything is set to zero and you have to research it.

I mean if the devs can have quickstart auto BUILD something for you, IE Homeplanet's asteroids and capship factory, wouldnt it stand to reason they could auto RESEARCH something at run time?

-Æ

so, no research that disables other research in the tree?  If that's the case, that's crap.  Damn.  So when setting up the match, in the player selection, you select then and there if you are loyalist or rebel?  I, and perhaps others, were figuring the same old stuff in the tech tree -military, civilian, defense, the diplocrap, and then Finally faction where if you clicked "Loyalist", then the "Rebel" option was shutdown.

Meh.  Just a player entity file with a couple of different entries.  Shit, could be done with entrenchment.  TEC Rebel -has some ships unlocked that have advent and vasari goodies.  PSI Heretic -ships with tech and vasari elements.  Vasari Appeasers -ships with TEC and Advent weapons or other fun stuff.  A modder could put something like this together in short work -just look at the stuff modders are doing now.  New meshes are always in high demand and so few to do stuff, but $40 bucks for Entrenchment Plus.

Time and again, I've been told that "Gifting" players with 3-4 tiers of completed research can't be done.  Sure you can mod the hell out of things so no ship requires research and players start with base level bonuses of 6 armor, +50% hull & regen, weapon bonuses and whatnot, but that's through modding and not a game feature.

Semaz, all you seem care about is new pieces of code that you can exploit in order to create new mods for this game...

The dev's chose this direction because the game testers (whom are presumably people who have never played Sins before), thought it was too difficult to understand when they had to research a subfaction during the game instead of at the start of a new game. I suppose Rebellion is primarily designed to attract people that have never played Sins before to the genre, which is why we will most likely not see a lot of drastic changes to the existing code...

We don't know that, its just that the reason they would have had to include that has been changed.

We're playing as neither. The civil war hasn't started it, all the Empire's are currently united in using Diplomacy to either get along or exploit each other. You can't be on a side if there are no sides to take.

Of course all Semaz cares about is new code to exploit for mods, since Ironclad aren't really challenging themselves or doing much envelope expansion if they're not adding a lot of new features.  Splitting the three races into six slightly different versions is definitely a content expansion, but it isn't nearly as useful to modders as being able to significantly alter a faction's ships and techtree mid-game.

Rebellion is being developed by Stardock. Not Ironclad. IC is just saying yay or nay on stuff. IC is busy developing their next big thing.

First  time I'm hearing this..are they keeping it a secret?

No, its been known for quite a while. IC did the ground work, Stardock is doing the implementation.

This is true.

Their next big thing is apparently something called SoaDA, its probably that ground based RTS they have been rumored to be working on.

Mmm a new game from Ironclad? Thats curious...

Maybe Loyalists factions are the same as the factions itself during Diplomacy, but obviously they would have new stuff, like new researchs and that.

SOADA -Sins of a Dedicated Alcoholic?