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Why Tactical Combat is Boring

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Why Tactical Combat is Boring

from Elemental Forums

First of all let me say that i know there are a hundred other posts like this (OrleanKnight's) but I need to get this off my chest or I just might Explode. I Just auto calc every combat I can because honestly, it's horrible.

Here's Why and some simplish fixes

Territory & Tactics

The first Reason Tactical combat is boring is that it involves absolutely no tactics worth mentioning. Controlling tiles in is a huge part of tactical combat in turn based games. In FE strategy is just running to mid and hitting first or pummeling with spells. The AI should just be waiting for the chance to pounce on your mage or archers, even to the point of keeping cavalry in reserve. To help prevent this many games use a system where units cant move next to enemy units without having to stop there. In FE zone of control is made usless because everyone dies in aprox two blows and some units have 10+ movement and initiative, also Terrain is too open. Chokepoints and defensible locations to move archers too are another thing that is completely absent. How about battling across a river with two bridges or something? Easy Simple fixes

Classes & Talents

Champion classes beyond the warrior and mage are horrible simply because the game is so simple. You cant specialize a warrior at all, a lv 15 warrior is exactly the same as any other and the stats system make Assassins pointless because theres nothing to specialize in. Defenders be useless becuase defense is pointless in a game where  you exchange like 2 blows of 60 dmg(Also see tactics above). The Assassin specialization is pointless because they tried to make them specialize in dext, which is just as useless as int. Crit strike is flawed if warriors are defined by only their strength stat and weapons deal dmg based on strength. Talents needs to be made more complex to even allow the classes we have. The Simplest way to revive fun champions is weapon specialization talents. For Example daggers as they stand just suck, but how about a talent that lets Assassins always strike twice with daggers? Or a Talent that gives Assassins a Dext based dmg bonus when using a bow? This fixes Assasins and makes champions more interesting. Defenders could get an improved defend talent for shields or a multi turn resistible stun for maces. There should be multiple abilities for every weapon and class in the game.

Units and Monsters

There are multiple types of dmg in FE, why are they never used beyond champion armor? Rock Spiders should laugh at cutting weapons. Cavalry should be afraid of whatever it is spears do. Also higher lv spears would be nice. There should be units in the game that are almost impossible to kill unless you have their weakness, be it fire or hammers. Instead every unit and monster in the game is just X hp, X dmg, X Init with a face. If it's got four legs it's fast and if it's got eight it's poisonous.

Unit stacks are underpowered again due to their simplicity, their just normal units with a weakness. The interaction between monsters, champions and stacks should be made more interesting. Unless using a special ability or talent, champions or monsters shouldn't be able to kill more than 1 unit in a stack per turn. Inversely their should be a limit to how many guys in a stack can attack, maybe just the front row (Unless they have spears? or a Spearwall talent?). Just think about how much this actually adds to the game. It makes initiative more important if you want to kill stacks or strength more important to kill monsters. Plus abilities for warrior champions would become more specialized, allowing you to build warrior champions more than just one way. Sword/Shield Duelist to fight other champions? GreatSword wielding monster slayer? Mace wielding stack slaughterer?

Thanks to all those who took the time to read this and doubly for those saintly souls who reply.

 

100,189 views 32 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 11

Quoting EviliroN, reply 10Brad has said before that champs are supposed to be like Sauron in LOTR, killing swaths of fodder. How much would it suck if Sauron had to stop attacking after he killed 1 unit? Give me a break. Too many people are going to complain and champs will get nerfed into oblivion and then this game will suck in a different way.

Agree.

 

Should have mentioned this earlier, but I agree as well.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 24

The "multiple roll" system is a good one. It moderates randomisation. It's how Warhammer, or total war or any other game works. It's intuitive and realistic. 3 Spearmen = 3 attacks = 3 dice. 5 arrows = 5 dice. What I'd do would be to make characters and monsters behave more like units. I'd give a standard spearman an attack value of about 10, and an elite infantryman an attack value of say 20. A sov by contrast might have an attack value of 15, increasing to maybe 40 by the end game (I'd also rename the attack stat as "damage" to make the system clearer, because that's what it really is). After all, a sov with a sword is not 5x as strong as an ordinary schmuck.

"But Seth-dude," you scream. "How will a sov with a measly 15 attack ever compete with 5 guys with 10 attack?" And the answer is simple. Give the characters more attacks too.

Brilliant! Balancing this will require some work, but I love the idea!

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EviliroN, reply 10
Brad has said before that champs are supposed to be like Sauron in LOTR, killing swaths of fodder. How much would it suck if Sauron had to stop attacking after he killed 1 unit? Give me a break. Too many people are going to complain and champs will get nerfed into oblivion and then this game will suck in a different way.

 

 

I fully agree with this I wish people would stop trying to turn Elemental into something its not. Its like people who want Mass Effect to focus alot less on inventory and levels and go straight shooter or people who go into Starcraft and want Galactic Civilizations 4X Strategy stuff.

This game is a Strategy/RPG hybrid, turning it into Heroes or Civilization destroys what makes Elemental unique.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 6
I pretty much auto every battle.  There really isn't any fun to playing them out, not like there is anything going on other than running to the eney and swinging my weapon or spamming magic.  The only thing I can do differently than the computer is protect my weaker units and be more conservative with my mana.  

 

I would love for it to go one of either two distinct paths, either the Final Fantasy Tactics route or the Dominions 3 route.  Either give me meaningful terrain, ZOC, flanking OR let me set up my battle formations, set unit AI and tactics, and let the battles be done automatically.  Right now I have to choose between either playing out a bland tactical fight, or roll the dice with an auto fight, knowing it's my weakest units that seem to rush to the vanguard.

 

I hated the dominion route. I want to fight my battles not let the AI do it. Talk about boring.  For me tactical combat is the best part of these games. Now saying that FE although better than WOM needs more.

1. The maps need to be bigger

2. There needs to be terrain that mean something in combat - Walls block line of site and or give a bonus/penalty. Trees provide cover. Town seiges etc. Hell AOW:SM did this.

3. OP is right about having the different typ have damages mean something.

4. More weapon types

5. ZOC - Zones of control.

 

People it is 2012 these things sould be easier now to do why not do them. And for those who say "It is really hard for devs to do this and that we should not ask for it" I say look at other games that are 10 years or more older that have done it.

 

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 8
I play every battle only because I don't like my mana being wasted.  I'll probably auto-play once they put in an auto-play with no magic button.  So yeah I guess I do need the tactical battles to be a little more interesting.

 

I play every battle because auto-play is no fun in these games. I just hate the auto play no matter how bland the tactical battle is

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Please stop saying that you want champions to be like Sauron

I replied to that post by agreeing and saying how my 1 hit 1 kill system would involve Weapons, Talents and skills that would let champions be exactly like that. This has been mentioned like 5 times by various people as well as in the original post. Never did I say that champions should be nerfed, just made more specialized and unique.

Examples of skills talents and weapons that would create such a Champion are:

 

Butcher's Blade

Two handed sword +14 cutting dmg and overkill +1 (dmg applied to next unit, stacks with other overkill)

+50% strength modifier

 

Mace Overkill Talent

When wielding a Mace the champion gains Overkill +1

 

Dagger Mastery

Allows Assasins using daggers an extra attack per turn.

 

Sweep Skill

Deals 75% base damage against up to 5 units in a stack

 

Mighty Blow

Deals 150 Dmg and Overkill +3 when wielding two handed weapon, Skip next turn

 

Other talents/skills/weapons would increase base damage and allow armor penetration.

Would This not make for more fun/tactical champion creation and combat over the current system of get as much Dmg/Str and the biggest wepon possible?

Quoting Kamamura_CZ, reply 5
What is essential, however, is, that the combat should present you difficult choices. Without choices to make, gameplay is boredom.

 

 

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting LordRikerQ, reply 28
This game is a Strategy/RPG hybrid, turning it into Heroes or Civilization destroys what makes Elemental unique.

Please explain exactly how FE is unique and how anything anyone has said in this post threatens it.

 

Oh and another thing I forgot, you need a method of arranging troops before battle. So you can spread them out and make sure your archers/mage arn't in the front, blocking your meele guys.