[Idea] Improving Improvements

I am a staunch building supporter. One might call me Muad'dib. :grin:  Let me demonstrate what I used to do while waiting for WoM updates:

 

That is how I want cities to look. Up, not out.

-Upgrades would solve the food improvements system. One building that can be upgraded with improvements.

ex: Granary-->Mill-->Bakery-->Bread District (Unique citylevelup option)

-Barracks should be upgraded to be the fort for city walls, the training post, the command post, and other such things. I imagine the barracks starting out with the default tile and then being replaced with a variation on that tile as it is upgraded with more abilities. This how my personal mod, Robust Cities worked. I never released it to the public as it was made for a 1.1 WoM. But the buildings were epic and took up less space than the default ones.

-Blacksmith would upgrade to a forge and eventually you might get to make it an Underforge if you get a lucky draw at level five citylevelup.

-The city hub has a good leveling system, but I would like to see it have a path option to really make cities feel unique. One great option would be for the Palace to become an upgrade for the hub instead of sitting beside it. It could also be upgraded to a wizard's tower, a fortress, a throne of onyx, etc...

-Inns could be upgraded with the adventurer's building, a pub, bed n' breakfast, guild hall, or even the theater and arena improvements. 

 

I think you'll see that many improvements that are being placed side by side could easily be combined with very little effort. It would decrease the sprawl and even fit well with a 9 tile limit or 3x3 buildings per tile. Any way you go, this saves space and gives the player unique option for each city. Factions could even have special upgrades, like Tarth getting a Rogue's Den instead of a Training Ground or Altar getting a special Guild Hall improvement for the Inn. There is alot of potential as long as you plan the improvement system to have multiple paths for some buildings based on their surroundings. 

 

The final thing I would point out is that if we did do a 9 tile limit, what would happen if you had something blocking a tile? I would suggest that you make sure to have a system where the 9 tile limit is square, unless a resource or other object blocks a tile, in which case you should be able to take a tile adjacent to another. It will be very important to show the user which tiles he or she can build off of when the settle button is moused over. 

This is how cities should look:

 

 

 

25,763 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top

Upgrades!  Very much needed.  9 tile limit - I'm not really a proponent of hard limits.

Reply #2 Top

I could go either way on the 9 tile limit or 3x3 tiles or some new idea. But right now we have a snaking issue that is worse than a level one teleport spell.  ;P

Reply #3 Top

Love the idea of buildings improvments too!

With improvments you could also have multiple upgrade "paths" for each buildings, providing for more opportunities for hard choices.

Limiting to 3x3 tiles makes it consistent with the way initial resources are computed too...

Reply #4 Top

Making buildings upgrade-o-rama instead of taking their own tiles would certainly fix the sprawl abuse, but I fear it would also bee-line every city. I mean, you'd pretty much lose every interesting choice that is currently in the game for cities. Or is the plan to have mutually exclusive upgrades? Ie barracks can become garrison - extra militia - OR fortress - extra defense for stationed units?

Reply #5 Top

My plan would be mutually exclusive. If yo turn your Inn into a Guild Hall, it can't also be a bed n' Breakfast, but it can later become a Guild HQ or maybe you get lucky and upgrade it to The Hall of Champions from a citylevelup. 

Reply #6 Top

Another thing is that we should be getting more than +% and +X from buildings. Where is the option to design magic users? What building will give me special weapon options? Which citylevelup improvement will make water magics more potent? Where do I forge items? 

Combined with leveling improvements, these kinds of features could increase in variety by allowing the player to choose between mutually exclusive upgrades via the Tech Trees. Quests and Wildlands should also unlock some upgrades for buildings. For that matter they should be giving me whole new buildings or even World Wonders. 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 4
...Or is the plan to have mutually exclusive upgrades? Ie barracks can become garrison - extra militia - OR fortress - extra defense for stationed units?

Now, this could be something rather interesting.  As long as we'd only be allowed one per City - as in, one Barracks, which can then be upgraded to something else, etc. - I think this is a fairly solid idea.  This allows me to really customise each City, one building and upgrade at a time.

Quoting seanw3, reply 6
...Quests and Wildlands should also unlock some upgrades for buildings. For that matter they should be giving me whole new buildings or even World Wonders.

I captured a Drake's nest that apparently let me recruit Drakes.  "Awesome sauce!!!" yells I.  Alas, I have no idea how to recruit them, and there is nothing further for me to build.
I'd seriously pay another pre-order fee if could capture this kind of stuff and then use the knowledge to build that building in one city, which then allowed us to train that unit in that one City - and then upgrade that captured building to build better versions of that unit, etc.

"I need some serious fire power!  I better go to my Drake Building City, that has been specialised to make sure my Drakes that can only be built from that City are seriously kick ass at the expense of everything else, and build a Drake to use in battle!"

I have no idea if this is even possible this far into development.  But damn it if it doesn't sound awesome!

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 4
Making buildings upgrade-o-rama instead of taking their own tiles would certainly fix the sprawl abuse, but I fear it would also bee-line every city. I mean, you'd pretty much lose every interesting choice that is currently in the game for cities. Or is the plan to have mutually exclusive upgrades? Ie barracks can become garrison - extra militia - OR fortress - extra defense for stationed units?

Of course, the more interesting OR choices the better.  And maybe different factions' buildings differentiate differently! \o/

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Valca, reply 3
Love the idea of buildings improvments too!

With improvments you could also have multiple upgrade "paths" for each buildings, providing for more opportunities for hard choices.

Limiting to 3x3 tiles makes it consistent with the way initial resources are computed too...

Hard choices through building upgrade trees... I like this.

Limiting to the way resources are computed... I also like this.

This idea has serious milage. Can it be done with the current game config? I don't think we ever had "upgradable" buildings in a WoM Beta, although we definately had tile limits at one point.

I'm confident this is achievable.

To the devs I would say: look how popular the perk system is. Upgrading buildings is like cities with perks.

Reply #10 Top

Not everything needs to be an upgrade, it it'd be good to get some degree of that. I especially second the notion of upgrading the central structure.

Reply #11 Top

Using the one per faction system and the the already in game upgrade system I used in WoM for my Robust Cities Mod, it would be easily added with no new code. They could refine it a bit with some code and a new tree to show player options, but this is totally a moddable option if the devs are too busy/ have a different vision for vanilla 1.0. 

After WoM I learned to think within already possible parameters.  ;)

Reply #12 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 11
Using the one per faction system and the the already in game upgrade system I used in WoM for my Robust Cities Mod, it would be easily added with no new code. They could refine it a bit with some code and a new tree to show player options, but this is totally a moddable option if the devs are too busy/ have a different vision for vanilla 1.0. 

After WoM I learned to think within already possible parameters. 

Awesome. I would play such a mod for FE.

It's a bit like the total war series - but more differentiation. You've got 8 "slots" (being tiles) around a city (which is 3 x 3), which you can fill with a number of choices. Those choices can then be upgraded, but there are distinct "hard" choices for the upgrade paths.

Higher level cities look like higher level cities because the central fort is, essentially, taller as it develops with upgrades.

This keeps city development interesting, generates differentiation, without too much micro, and prevents sprawl.

What's not to like?

Reply #14 Top

100% great idea,  k1 ,  I love it. Would greatly alleviate many city abuses such as:

Quoting Ratatosk7, reply 37
On the topic of buildings you can stretch your city far to the side in a stringy snake fashion, you can do this even with squarish late game cities by demolishing buildings on one side and building towards an area. This allows you to basically teleport your units over 5-10 tiles by abusing the city movement.

 

And really help reduce the tedium of building construction. At late game I feel I am just building everything so I have stuff in the queue, sort of like late game civ games. This would mean less buildings, still lots to fill up the queue (as advanced buildings would logically take longer), and actual choices. Instead of having multiple buildings that give +1 diplomatic capital, or +10 food, you could have buildings that upgrade into +2 DC, or +20 food, and don't have 100 buildings that do similar things to choose from when upgrading your cities. You could also simplify building maint by having tier 1 buildings cost 1 maint, tier 2 cost 2 maint, and tier 3 cost 3 maint, for example. Personally I think FE could use a solid building line like town hall > city council > palace, that does something like reduce maint/unrest. Building construction just seems very unorganized overall.

 

On the note of upgrading I think that instead of a proper linear tier as you proposed (Granary-->Mill-->Bakery-->Bread District), it would be strategic to have to make choices on level up buildings with benefits and drawbacks. This would help you further specialize your cities and make it so you aren't just upgrading everything. So for example:

(1)Granary which might be +20 food per grain could upgrade to

(2)Mill which would give +30 food per grain, or

(2)Bakery which would give +20 food per grain and +.5 growth.

 

(2)Mill could then upgrade to

(3)Advanced Mill which gives +40 food per grain, or

(3)Horse Mill which gives +60 food per grain -.5 horse.

 

(2) Bakery could upgrade to

(3) Bakery District +20 food per grain +1 growth, or

(3) Food Stockpile, +20 food per grain, -25% unit cost/training

 

So instead of having 50 buildings that give random food bonuses to grain you would have something like the above. For a more interesting example the gildar line could look something like this:

 

(1) Market + 3 gildar

(2) Barter + 5% taxes, -10% shop prices

(2) Merchant +6 gildar

 

(2) Barter + 5% taxes, -10% shop prices

(3) Bazaar, -20% shop prices

(3) Tax Collector  +10% taxes

 

(2) Merchant +6 gildar

(3) Trading Post +10% per caravan

(3) Merchant Quarter + 9 gildar

 

 

 

Reply #15 Top

Ratatosk7: More of this sort of stuff!!!

 

(1) Garden (+10 food per grain (fpg)) could be upgraded (at city level 2) to:

(2) Farm (+20 fpg) or

(2) Herb Garden (+15 fpg and ability to buy potions).

 

These then offer different upgrade paths (at city level 3):

(2) Farm could be upgraded to:

(3) Estate (+25 fpg, +3 guildar) or

(3) Plantation (+25 fpg, +3 production) or similar

 

(2) Herb garden could be to:

(3) Apocethary (+20 fpg, buy potions, +1 regen to defending units) or

(3) Pleasure Garden (+20 fpg, buy potions, - 10% to unrest).

 

And this is just for a garden.

Seriously, I am tempted to draw a tree to show there is so much possibility.

 

Reply #16 Top

Good ideas. An interesting minigame within the game is ALWAYS good.

Reply #17 Top

I like this. I would pay for this mod but like it even more in the vanilla game.

Reply #18 Top

The real question now is how big to make each improvement?

A full tile improve saves memory and alleviates the empty lines inbetween improvements. With an upgrade system like this, you would be getting so much from each improvement, that an 8 tile limit would be a good limit to construction. On the other hand, assuming that the devs don't like/hate the idea of a tile limit at all, and even moreso the 9 improvements per tile proposal, mixing and matching some 1/4 tile improvements with 1/1 tile improvements would be fine I suppose.

The larger 1/1 improvements we have now are too small for my tastes. I learned from WoM that with only another 10 or so extra props, you can make a tile really seem epic. 

Here is an overview of my concept of a level 5 city:

 

 

 

It's large and has many towers. The streets fit together, but wind inbetween buildings. There is a good amount of chaos, buildings connect to each other or are built on. It is miles away from the current tile art we get for improvements. 

 

 

 

Here we have the City Hub, a large castle, dwarfed by all the level 5 buildings around it. 

I would probably make this castle bigger for a real level 5 City hub, but this one is still much larger and ornate than what we have. 

 

 

 

The upgrade system I was going for in WoM has some really nice tile art that goes from par with the current art to more epic looking towers in a rather clean progression. 

 

Some things will only get one upgrade if they start to be buildable at high levels anyway.

 

Some buildings will only be upgradable to level 3, favoring a nation that has little grain but is making strategic choices to use what they have. 

 

 

These are jut some of my WoM designs that could easily be transferred to make up some of the 1/1 tiles. I would probably make at least 2 upgrade paths for each 1/1 building. It all depends on how the 1.0 version chooses to implement improvement improvements.  :)

Reply #19 Top

Here's what I need... I need a little icon like you put on the champion and quest tiles to tell me there is an "improvable" tile out there.  Once you start taking over the world, you get lots of tiles that you can't improve until you have the technology.  I know there is an exclamation event that shows up when you can, but sometimes those get overlooked.  Please add the option for a little icon on "improvable" tiles so that they're easier to see.

Reply #20 Top

Bumping this thread for awesomeness.

Reply #21 Top

King Arthur 2, which comes out in a couple of days, handles city management in a similar way (minus the amazing tile art). I love the idea. 

Reply #22 Top

Some of those tiles look pretty amazing seanw3! They're a little grey and a bit to cluttered when placed together for my taste, but other than that, nice! I love the attention to detail. I was going for something similar in WoM mod, untill I realised that game was never going to be fun for me. Check it out; https://forums.elementalgame.com/403574

Reply #23 Top

Sounds like a capital idea, really like this one.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting Satrhan, reply 22
Some of those tiles look pretty amazing seanw3! They're a little grey and a bit to cluttered when placed together for my taste, but other than that, nice! I love the attention to detail. I was going for something similar in WoM mod, untill I realised that game was never going to be fun for me. Check it out; https://forums.elementalgame.com/403574

Your work there Satrhan is great. At least some of this stuff needs to be in FE.

Reply #25 Top

what about us that like cloth map mode? This does nothing for us besides reduce city sprawl, which I like