A table of allowed/banned combos for a 2v2 tourney - discuss

tournament dominated by Generals and following combos imho

Occ&QoT

Occ&Sed

Qot&Sed

LE&Sed

you overrate Assassins and uderestimate Generals,

The most successful combo in preliminary games was Rook+DA (: QoT/Sed, Occ/QoT, Occ/Sed are allowed even if we go the core 3v3 point system adapted for a 2v2 (UB/Rook/Oak/Erb = 3 pts; Occ/QoT/Sed/TB = 2 pts; DA/Reg = 1 pt; the maximum for a team is 4 pts). 

What would you suggest? What to allow, what to ban?

Игьз.

Choose
UB/Rook get QoT
Erebus/Oak get DA/Reg
Occ get TB
Sedna get TB

Perhaps I'm a bit slow today, but would you be so kind as to elaborate? Choose what? Is that an either/or choice? 

because it has the most number of balanced comps and what we've used in the past. And has room for counter-picks. (Rook/Qot > Sed/TB but weak against Occ/TB which in turn is weak against Sed/TB).

Sed + Occ is OP (proven a longggg time ago with similar rules in place: it was banned).

Sed + TB is strong.

Rook/UB + QoT are both strong.

Occ + TB is strong

Rook/UB/Oak + DA/Reg is decent. 

Erebus and Oak both get screwed up with that combo, buttttt. 

because it has the most number of balanced comps and what we've used in the past.

Awwwww!!! What do you mean by 'because'? Because of what? What is LO suggesting, basically? Guys, you are very cryptic (: I don't get the suggestion itself. Can you clarify, please? 

Choose UB get QoT
Choose Rook get QoT
Choose Erebus get DA or Reg
Choose Oak get DA or Reg
Choose Occ get TB
Choose Sedna get TB

Maybe choosing Erebus or Oak results in a bit of a weaker team... but both of these guys have good portal locking ability against the other teams.

Hm, I see. And hedgie thinks it's acceptable?

Well, personally, I don't mind. Anyway I wanted to play a Sed/TB combo (: I can also add an extra clause in tiny font size saying: "But Myth+IN1 can play Oak+Sed. Lololol, noobz!"

Okay, my commentary:

UB + QoT = extremely strong, bordering on OP, if not outright OP.

Rook + QoT = ridiculously OP; that is the combo that every pro team will play. In what way is it balanced, exactly? (: It means the opponents, provided they didn't go Rook/QoT, will have no towers by level 5+, and no cit by level 10+. If you have played vs a skilled Rook+QoT, you know exactly what I mean.

All the rest are allowed with my initial suggestion (and even with the vanilla Pacov's rules).

Anyway, the bottom line is the QoT combos suggested are much stronger than Occ + Sed (which I don't see as OP in 2v2; it is neat and convenient, sure enough -- but OP? hardly). I'm strongly opposed to allowing either UB+QoT, or - especially! - Rook+QoT for the tourney.

rook/da beat occ/sed.. why u wanna allow rook/qot then

Erebus Reg will rape Rook QoT

Sed / TB - lane Sedna mana side, TB health

(this and Rook/UB are like literally the only matchups where its acceptable to put Sedna on mana side)

Countered by Occ / TB

No end game

And yeah, it's extremely strong but that's the point: to have several strong comps with a good mixture of counter picking.

Occ/Sed would be the only legal two-general team except for Qot/Sed which no one will use. 

The enemy having 1 monk (possibly CH'd anyway), compared to two monks is extremely powerful. 

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Anyway, I'm going to mention that part of this may be a meta thing. How us old pros played is possibly very different than how you guys do. The amount of health stacking in old games was obscene. It's possible that you guys don't do it quite as much. This obviously changes a few of the different stronger builds (like Rook/QoT). 

Or you guys are being more passive/etc. Lots of different reasons.  

I think a good approach here would be to ask teams that plan on playing exactly what combo they'd plan on using.  That might give a quick hint as to whether or not a system that will result in 4 demigods being chosen over and over exists. 

I'd personally go with Sedna/erebus.  I actually think this would be very difficult to beat based on the other team combos (eg major portal control adv to erb/seda (bs/stun - pounce/silence) - 2 guaranteed outs with huge potential to abuse - hi - I'm at your portal with low hp - gl killing me). 

I see potential with oak/tb, ub has been nerfed, rook has been nerfed, qot has been kinda nerfed.  I think you should remove more dgs from the sedna combination possibilities.  I'd suggest removing erebus and occulus.  I'm 100% confident that with the current teams, sedna/erb is a huge adv for that combo over any of the other allowable teams.  All I'd have to do is play safe a bit and, while its probably a long game, its likely a win.  And there are no other dg combos in this list that look like that to me.  Honestly, the only stronger combo I'd leave sedna with would be sed/qot.  It's actually a wee bit weak, but has alot of potential against other teams (and certainly stronger than any of the combos allowed for ub)

There's only 3 useful combos for oculus. Sed, TB and DA. No point having a team with no stuns or interrupts. And UB+Rook are not allowed any monks? I guess that's fair enough they'll just need to buy priests early huh.

Why don't you make the tourney rules that each player may use each demigod only once. Then from 10 games they must play every demigod and their teammate too. So if they go a powerful combo in their first game, after that they have limited choices. Wouldn't this show who the ultimate DG players are overall?

Or if using your points system, a tier 1 DG gets one point for a win, a2 gets 2 points and 3 gets 3. If your team has 2x tier3 dg's and wins then your score will be worth more than the tankers.

Sed / TB - lane Sedna mana side, TB health

(this and Rook/UB are like literally the only matchups where its acceptable to put Sedna on mana side)

Well, no. Sed is useless in this matchup.

Good luck fighting a skilled UB with a monk after level 5 with Sedna. If you are fast enough, he won't kill you (any tank Sed will end up dead vs a good UB), so you can kite to a certain limit, true. But you won't be able to push him or even to protect the structures. He can just ignore you.

Sedna vs QoT is even more problematic.

The amount of health stacking in old games was obscene. It's possible that you guys don't do it quite as much. This obviously changes a few of the different stronger builds (like Rook/QoT). 

Yes, pure health stacking is less popular these days.

Or you guys are being more passive/etc. Lots of different reasons.  

Nah, I don't think so. Unless we play a High towers game, where it's a given.

@pacov: Useful critique, ty. Personally, I don't see Sed/Erb as OP (very safe, no doubt; but surely not OP to a degree Rook/QoT is!), but since several people singled it out, it should be banned.

Honestly, the only stronger combo I'd leave sedna with would be sed/qot.  It's actually a wee bit weak, but has alot of potential against other teams (and certainly stronger than any of the combos allowed for ub)

Yes, it is a good one. We've played Sed/QoT with Quincrane vs yellow+nnnils DA/Rook, and it was a long and good match, though they won in the end due to our lack of mutual understanding (: 

The new version of the table is up.

1. Since everyone seems to think all of a sudden that Sed is so freaking OP, allowed only 4 combos for her: QoT, TB, DA, Reg. The same is true now for Occ.

2. Oak and Erb have now only TB, DA, Reg allowed (still more than by the original point system).

3. QoT has both Occ and Sed allowed.

4. TB has everyone allowed, but Rook and UB.

5. Rook, UB, Reg, DA - no change from the previous version. I'm not convinced by hedgie/LO's argument in favor of totally overwhelming Rook+QoT and UB+QoT combos. While it's true Rook+QoT can be countered by TB+Occ, I naturally do not wish to limit the combinations to those two.

heh... no - I just think the change will put her more in line with the other allowable DG combos. 

You've probably noticed the table reflects my personal DG hierarchy, not my desire to allow a lot of combos for Sed (which would be nice, only I'm going to play Sed/TB anyway). Thus, my personal rating goes like this: UB>Rook>Oak>Erb>Occ>QoT>Sed>TB>Reg>DA. It seems to me most people actually rate Sed higher than she should be (in my opinion). Maybe because they don't play her that much, and so have less awareness of her serious weaknesses making her a poor 2v2 DG (and a good 1v1/3v3 DG, btw). But then again, maybe I'm the one being subjective with that list... So I have changed it to better suit the general public taste (:

ere/rook + da looks nasty

So is anything that remains really sticking out as combos that would be used over and over?  I think the only thing that might need tweaking is the allowable combos for TB.  For instance, you can use reg/da with anyone.  TB can be used with 7 other combos (eg more than all other dgs - reg/da).  Maybe that's fine, though.  Does stick out to me anyway.  Seems like he'd be a goto character if you need an oak or an erb.  Like I said, though, maybe that's fine.

Combo's I'd go with if playing based on the current list:

• erb/da
• erb/tb
• rook/da (would really depend on the competition)
• oak/tb
• sed/tb

I think that's about it.  I think the best combos would be erb/da, erb/tb,  and oak/tb.  So, at least to me, it probably would boil down to those combos.

oak/tb get ass-fucked heavily by rook/da.. so get sed/tb