Making empire management massively easier: Fleet Plan and Mini Rally bar, plus small tweaks

Fleet Plan:

A window located at the top of the empire tree now separate from the empire tree entirely, when clicked on gives you ten fleet slots. When you click on a fleet you are treated to a ship building interface, the first ship you build being designated as the fleet leader.

When the fleet is created its given a random name which you can change like everything else.

Upon creating the first ship in a fleet, you must pick a rally point.

The main advantage of the fleet plan is that any ships lost will be automatically constructed from the most appropriate factories, and if there is an idle ship not belonging to any fleet it will be rallied to your fleet instead of a newly constructed one. Such fleet behavior can be turned off.If you dont want ships to automatically build, you can turn it off as well.

Some people will argue that "select all factories" from the search bar already accomplishes this, but it does not. You have to configure each rally for each planet manually which is a pain and then what do you get? A bunch of ships on multiple planets that you have to micromanage wasting precious time.

 

The mini rally bar:

An icon next to the search icon that when opened gives you options like colonize, capture extractor, build starbase and perhaps more.

Selecting a command such as this will either cause the closest navigator/colonizer/constructor to go to the place you indicate and perform the command, or a new ship will be built from the most appropriate factory and do the same.

Such fleet behavior of already constructed ships doing the indicated tasks instead of newly constructed ones can be turned off like above in fleet plan.

There would also be a ship build button that sends the quantity and types of ships to a specific gravity well in addition to automatically selecting the appropriate factories for you. This is helpful because you no longer have to micro manage specific planet factories or rally points anymore.

Other potentially useful commands that could be added could be for example build starbases on all owned planets, or send colonizers to all owned/logistic filled but not owned planets.

Some people would argue that this feature is not worth the devs time because it sort of already exists, but for example, if you wanted to send small fleets to two different planets that are being attacked, instead of having to wait while your dinner is cooking and then having to manually split the mini fleets evenly and then send them off to their respective planets they do so automatically, preventing you from wasting time where you would have neglected research, economy, and your main attacking fleet in that time. This also useful for managing deep space construction frigates and scouts and colonizers.

 

The following is a list of mini features:

 

Flag planets as danger zones: When a planet is flagged as such, ships will find alternate routes if possible.

The ability of the player to mass scuttle is desperately needed.

There should be an option to have resources become consumed according to their build rate and gradually. Often times youll forget to research or build something because when you were about to you didnt have the immediate resources and this fixes that problem.

When you build starbases there should be a ghost at the selected build point even before the constructor arrives. This way you can select the upgrades you want before its built. Like above, this feature would prevent players from forgetting to make important decisions that they simply forgot to make while waiting for them to be able to have been made.

Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount. Seeing as this could potentially defeat the purpose of fleets altogether, this behaviour would only occur during battle, or when enemies are close by.

An option for fleets to have their carriers wait by the edge of the gravity well, or avoid enemies automatically.

There needs to be an option in the the user interface menu that makes it so the empire window doesnt constantly auto expand and/or scroll down. This annoyance of the window ultimately keeps me from using it, where if it did not do this it might have been pretty useful.

The user interface option to treat planet logistics and tactical slots like strike craft construction. For example, left clicking on an already built structure in the logistics menu will scuttle it and loan the planet the logistics slots so you dont have to wait until its scuttled to build your replacing structure(s). Fleet plans could also function like this.

Reply with your own ideas and criticisms and I may place them here.

14,408 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think an auto-build feature like in the Supreme Commander series would be really nice for Sins. Also a mass scuttle (when you select multiple objects and press Shift + S they should all be scuttled at once) would be nice.

Resources being consumed while a ship or structure is being build sounds like a bad and unnecessary change to me.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 1
Resources being consumed while a ship or structure is being build sounds like a bad and unnecessary change to me.

Ive explained how it would be useful, so do me the courtesy of explaining why it would be the opposite of useful.

Reply #3 Top

An easier way: Devs, give the modders access to whatever the Empire Tree runs on, and the modders will surely find their own solution to the many problems with the Empire Tree.

The ability of the player to mass scuttle is desperately needed.

Shift-S and tab. The only limitation is how fast you can press those keys in order.

Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount.

An even better idea: don't use fleets at all. Just give commands to groups of ships as you see fit.

Using fleets is a bad idea because ships often waste time shooting around trying to get into some position in the fleet (instead of firing) and lose a lot of their potential firepower.

There should be an option to have resources become consumed according to their build rate and gradually. Often times youll forget to research or build something because when you were about to you didnt have the immediate resources and this fixes that problem.

That would be quite useful... then I wouldn't have to go back to a planet and click "LRM frigate" every 20 seconds when I'm fighting and am low on funds.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Wrath89, reply 3
An easier way: Devs, give the modders access to whatever the Empire Tree runs on, and the modders will surely find their own solution to the many problems with the Empire Tree.

I suppose modders should have been charged with creating Rebellion as well hmm?

The ability of the player to mass scuttle is desperately needed.


Shift-S and tab. The only limitation is how fast you can press those keys in order.

You arent actually suggesting that simultaneous (mass) scuttling isnt needed because of this "fix" are you?

Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount.



An even better idea: don't use fleets at all. Just give commands to groups of ships as you see fit.

Using fleets is a bad idea because ships often waste time shooting around trying to get into some position in the fleet (instead of firing) and lose a lot of their potential firepower.


So... you didnt read everything then? I mean its right there in the quote too: "Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount."

Often times youll forget to research or build something because when you were about to you didnt have the immediate resources and this fixes that problem.



That would be quite useful... then I wouldn't have to go back to a planet and click "LRM frigate" every 20 seconds when I'm fighting and am low on funds.

You agree with SOMETHING...

Reply #5 Top

Quoting JCD-Bionicman, reply 4
I suppose modders should have been charged with creating Rebellion as well hmm?

That's kind of the problem, the devs want to be able to make it themselves so that they'll get paid for it. :)

However, hundreds of hours of time and effort has been put into mods and into various fixes and things by the modders - making me wonder (from our perspective) exactly what sort of (creative and bug fixing) advantages the devs have over the modders, other than their access to the source code.

You arent actually suggesting that simultaneous (mass) scuttling isnt needed because of this "fix" are you?

Yeah, that is what I'm saying. If you know how to use hotkeys there's no need for the devs to add an extra option ingame. They seem to have their hands full with other matters. If you can't spare the extra 10-20 seconds it takes to scuttle whatever you're scuttling en masse I see no need to change the game to help you with that sort of thing...

So... you didnt read everything then? I mean its right there in the quote too: "Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount."

If you're still at the stage of using fleets and then just watching everything autoattack... well, then asking for additional features to compensate for your lack of ability to micromanage is not the thing to be doing.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Wrath89, reply 5
You arent actually suggesting that simultaneous (mass) scuttling isnt needed because of this "fix" are you?

Yeah, that is what I'm saying. If you know how to use hotkeys there's no need for the devs to add an extra option ingame. They seem to have their hands full with other matters. If you can't spare the extra 10-20 seconds it takes to scuttle whatever you're scuttling en masse I see no need to change the game to help you with that sort of thing...

and yet I got shot at on another thread when I told somebody how to keep the stupid Empire Tree from jumping around instead of whining that it doesn't lock. Heh

I'm broken on this. It would be nice, but not a necessity.

Quoting Wrath89, reply 5
I suppose modders should have been charged with creating Rebellion as well hmm?

That's kind of the problem, the devs want to be able to make it themselves so that they'll get paid for it.

However, hundreds of hours of time and effort has been put into mods and into various fixes and things by the modders - making me wonder (from our perspective) exactly what sort of (creative and bug fixing) advantages the devs have over the modders, other than their access to the source code.

The devs have actually taken up modder ideas for past updates. I imagine it will not end there. Besides, we only put stuff on these threads because they do listen to us, after all. Hey, there's a reason some mods have been featured on game sites and magazines. It's because they are as popular as the game and seen as completing it in some sense or another. Not to say one size fits all or that the MP community cares for mods at all, but modders were expected to be as much a part of this game as anyone/thing else.

Quoting Wrath89, reply 5
So... you didnt read everything then? I mean its right there in the quote too: "Also an option to disable or greatly loosen fleet formations, seeing that ships almost always overreact to not being in formation by a small amount."

If you're still at the stage of using fleets and then just watching everything autoattack... well, then asking for additional features to compensate for your lack of ability to micromanage is not the thing to be doing.

The way the scripting is laid out, even loosening the fleet more won't do much. It's like in Total War where you tell a group of soldiers to turn clockwise five degrees. Do they just turn the block? No, they have to turn the whole thing around in a big swirl. Yeah, the pathing isn't super amazing. I use fleets for macro movement and then micro in battle.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Wrath89, reply 5



Quoting JCD-Bionicman,
reply 4

That's kind of the problem, the devs want to be able to make it themselves so that they'll get paid for it.

However, hundreds of hours of time and effort has been put into mods and into various fixes and things by the modders - making me wonder (from our perspective) exactly what sort of (creative and bug fixing) advantages the devs have over the modders, other than their access to the source code.

So, youre saying that the devs should stop all development of the game and simply hand over the source code? Okay, theres some pretty cool mods out there, but they are only cool in theory. Every single mod Ive ever played is plagued with issues, from failed or unworking ideas, poor stat balancing, not to mention glitches and other defects. EVERY single time ive installed a mod ive ended up putting it down and picking up vanilla again because of the issues. The only mod I havent done this with is shifter, but I havent experienced vanilla enough (Deus Ex vanilla) to know the difference. Even the best modders with the best tools have not managed to create something that matches the quality of official developers, and they never will. The reason developers do so good at their job, is because its their job. Modders still have to go to that other job they get paid for you know.

Yeah, that is what I'm saying. If you know how to use hotkeys there's no need for the devs to add an extra option ingame.

Yeah, cause having to tab to every fucking ship in your fleet you want to scuttle manually is so much more convenient right?

They seem to have their hands full with other matters.

So essentially what your saying is, simply allowing players to scuttle things simultaneously would be a feature TOO HARD TO CODE, and NOT worth the developers TIME...

If you can't spare the extra 10-20 seconds it takes to scuttle whatever you're scuttling en masse I see no need to change the game to help you with that sort of thing...

Yeah, cause Im just some retard that isnt skilled enough right? Im not skilled, (follow me closely here because this is important)... because I dont like pressing tab and shift+s as fast as I can in order to get rid my stuff...



If you're still at the stage of using fleets and then just watching everything autoattack

Meanwhile while your wasting your time increasing the effectiveness of your fleet versus mine by a mere 10-25% while Ive simply cut corners and set up the autocasts in order to be used automatically but still reasonably efficient, Im also spending the time I'd have wasted micromanaging my fleet doing a billion other things that are much more important, and in all likelyhood Ill end up beating you because I have stronger economy, defenses, I have superweapons, and dozens of researched techs not to mention a desert planet loaded with factories.

well, then asking for additional features to compensate for your lack of ability to micromanage is not the thing to be doing.

Again, the idea that a player being able to exploit lots of hotkeys and/or micromanages everything very fast doesnt mean he is skilled nor does it mean that he will win. Hardcore micromanagers=no lifers.

Wanna hear something interesting? Chess is about the most simple game on earth, aside from obviously simpler games like tic-tac-toe, etc. I dont in the slightest mean to suggest that the game of chess is a simple thing at all, hell no, but the means by which the player manages his pieces in the game are very simple. The player doesnt have to do a fucking backflip just to move one piece, yet the decisions themselves take great amounts of energy. You see, when a player has to spend all his brain power and time micromanaging things rather than actually thinking about strategy, the game the player is playing is no longer strategy.

Let me simplify the above passage into something more compact. The more energy that is spent trying to figure out HOW youre going to do something is less energy being spent deciding WHAT youre going to do. HOW is the micromanaging, and the WHAT is the strategizing.

Theres an article by Frogboy, developer of galactic civilizations, that highlights the key points of sins success and he basically says alot of what Im saying.

[quote][quote who="Draakjacht" reply="6" id="3055598"DAMN EDITER WONT WORK]

and yet I got shot at on another thread when I told somebody how to keep the stupid Empire Tree from jumping around instead of whining that it doesn't lock. Heh

I'm broken on this. It would be nice, but not a necessity.[/quote]

The core mechanic of Sins, the whole reason alot of people fell in love with it was at least 75% due to the convenient interface and the ease of managing your empire. Join the light side of the force.


The way the scripting is laid out, even loosening the fleet more won't do much. It's like in Total War where you tell a group of soldiers to turn clockwise five degrees. Do they just turn the block? No, they have to turn the whole thing around in a big swirl. Yeah, the pathing isn't super amazing. I use fleets for macro movement and then micro in battle.

How would not greatly loosening the fleet formations and/or disabling them NOT make a difference? Also I edited that part of the thread so check it.

Reply #8 Top

I'm in favor of a mass scuttle, including being able to select all structures of a certain type for scuttling.  BUT...the game should give you a warning popup asking if you really want to do this because it would suck if someone accidentally scuttled a bunch of ships by inadvertently pressing Shift-S or the bottom screen scuttle button.  I've accidentally scuttled capital ships and even my home terran before; it would be great if a confirmation window would pop up for those.

Reply #9 Top

How the hell did you manage to accidentally scuttle a Capital ship without noticing after a while? XD

Reply #10 Top

I really don't see the point in mass scuttle. I mean I can't think of a situation where I would scuttle a large fleet wholesale. If I needed more supply I would just research more.

Logistic and tactical sturctures maybe but I rarely scuttle them anyways.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting JCD-Bionicman, reply 2
Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 1Resources being consumed while a ship or structure is being build sounds like a bad and unnecessary change to me.


Ive explained how it would be useful, so do me the courtesy of explaining why it would be the opposite of useful.
Well I believe you would easily lose track of what you bought if you don't have to pay a base price for your goods. It would be hard to get a good overview of what resources you have available since resources will constantly be consumed. Also, you shouldnt be able to build more than you can pay for. But hey, that's just my opinion.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 11



Well I believe you would easily lose track of what you bought if you don't have to pay a base price for your goods.

How would this be any different than sins late-game?

It would be hard to get a good overview of what resources you have available since resources will constantly be consumed.

No, thats not true.

Also, you shouldnt be able to build more than you can pay for.

You arent. If you run out of resources, things stop building.

The only reason I can see against this feature is that players who build too much will find themselves "in debt" so to speak. I experienced this firsthand in Earth 2160. This means that everything is building super slow and etc. Its not necessarily bad though, unless the player really REALLY overextends his building and stuff to the point that he cant do certain things when he needs them right away, but like in Earth 2160 you can cancel buildings and research, or you can put them on a priority list. In E2160 you have an icon that pauses/cancels all building and/or research. Players can use this to postpone paying their "debt" and allocate resources where they are needed.

I really don't see the point in mass scuttle. I mean I can't think of a situation where I would scuttle a large fleet wholesale. If I needed more supply I would just research more.

Logistic and tactical sturctures maybe but I rarely scuttle them anyways.

Its mainly needed for scuttling mines, but also when you have massive fleets and also just for convenience since you cant really argue it wouldnt be useful. If you select ten frigates you want to scuttle, they will all be scuttled. If you want to individually scuttle, then you individually select and do so. Thats how it should always have been.

Its really annoying when people try to find things wrong with an idea when there is in reality nothing wrong with the idea.

Reply #13 Top

If you have ever played the SupCom series you should know exactly what I mean when i say it is hard not to exceed your credit and resource income rate.

In my honest opinion, the way it is now is not that bad.

By the way, I never said mass scuttle is a bad thing. I think you quoted someone elses reply.

Reply #14 Top

If you have ever played the SupCom series you should know exactly what I mean when i say it is hard not to exceed your credit and resource income rate.

In my honest opinion, the way it is now is not that bad.

I told you that it would be an optional feature, and how you could fix the potential problems of this new feature. Ive also explained the usefulness of the feature and you have to take the advantages into account along with the disadvantages Teun. I also havent played SupCom, but as I said in my comment I played Earth 2160 which did have the feature Im suggesting.


By the way, I never said mass scuttle is a bad thing. I think you quoted someone elses reply.

I know: I just find this new forum comment editing scheme unfamiliar as Im used to Minecraft forums. It wouldnt let me use the quote identifier for Rovert10 for some reason. It kept ignoring it and so I had to replace it with "[quote]"

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 9
How the hell did you manage to accidentally scuttle a Capital ship without noticing after a while?

Oh, I noticed it when I received the, "One of our capital ships has been destroyed" message and thought, "WTF!".

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Rovert10, reply 10
I really don't see the point in mass scuttle. I mean I can't think of a situation where I would scuttle a large fleet wholesale. If I needed more supply I would just research more.

Logistic and tactical sturctures maybe but I rarely scuttle them anyways.

You would use it in situations where ships or structures are guaranteed to be destroyed.  For example, lets suppose that 15 LRFs are trapped by PJIs and/or Subverters at an enemy well with a large fleet.  They are going to die without even killing as much as a single enemy ship.  By scuttling them you get some money back and prevent enemy capital ships from gaining experience.  If you're Vasari, you should get 1/2 the money and resource cost back (love that ability).  Likewise, you might want to scuttle a bunch of structures in a gravity well you can't defend for the same reason.

Reply #17 Top

Should I create this thread?

The next expansion: INVASION

[snip]

EDIT: it has been revised, see below.

 

Reply #18 Top

Maybe just me, but I can't see a real use for this feature. The resources my enemy is spending on GC units I would spend on battle ships to destroy said units. Also, why would I bother with GC when something like a novalith fixes any problems a planet has with me much quicker? Or the research for it, why spend the resources on it, when those same resources could go instead to make my fleet powerful enough to make a ground invasion pointless? Not trying to bash, just trying to figure out in the current sins environement why I would bother with it.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't think it would fit well with the sins gameplay. In sins the focus is on fleet battles and things that augment that. This idea while it could possibly add another layer of play, could simply end up detracting from that gameplay.

That would be my main concern, that this would turn into an annoying gimmick that doesn't really enhance the gameplay. That said, I'm for anything that improves the "Sins experience" if you will, so I'll not dismiss it out of hand.

Reply #19 Top

Sound like culture with ships. I can see Dragoon's point.

Reply #20 Top

Quoting Dragoon4ever, reply 18
Maybe just me, but I can't see a real use for this feature. The resources my enemy is spending on GC units I would spend on battle ships to destroy said units. Also, why would I bother with GC when something like a novalith fixes any problems a planet has with me much quicker? Or the research for it, why spend the resources on it, when those same resources could go instead to make my fleet powerful enough to make a ground invasion pointless? Not trying to bash, just trying to figure out in the current sins environement why I would bother with it.

I don't think it's a bad idea, I just don't think it would fit well with the sins gameplay. In sins the focus is on fleet battles and things that augment that. This idea while it could possibly add another layer of play, could simply end up detracting from that gameplay.

That would be my main concern, that this would turn into an annoying gimmick that doesn't really enhance the gameplay. That said, I'm for anything that improves the "Sins experience" if you will, so I'll not dismiss it out of hand.

Hmm... your right. I was thinking of something that might counter that. Perhaps that new logistics structure I was thinking about would simply be a planetary upgrade? It would be called for the vasari for example full military lockdown. It would be expensive, cost research, but would give the planet a permanent and large bonus of GC.

Well many things could be done to buff invasion forces versus fleets. I dont really know what that is though, so terribly sorry. Maybe you guys could help me tear it down and start from scratch and come up with something better.

Reply #21 Top

I think the biggest problem is simply making it worthile. Give me a convincing reason to send an invasion fleet, instead of a battle fleet or novalith warhead. Perhaps something like retaining some of the planetary upgrades the enemy has given it, instead of having to build it up from scratch. I'm not sure that would be enough but it's a good start. Also perhaps a bonus to allegiance for a short time.

Reply #22 Top

Invasion: The new player ability allows players to take eachother's planets hostage without bombardment. The player who's planet has been invaded can bomb his own planet but at a large penalty to culture on the same planet and a small but permanent allegiance loss on each planet. When a player invades a planet he gets to keep whatever planetary upgrades that were researched, and now controls the gravity well.

 

Ground Control (GC): This serves as the buffer between invasion forces, and ultimately determines who wins a land battle. This new ship resource serves to represent a ships capability of fighting invasion forces. GC can repel hostile culture up to twice the regional net of friendly culture against a minimum allegiance.

Planets will still be considerably weakened by enemy culture, but GC makes sure that the planet still retains a minimum allegiance. As previously stated all allegiance below the minimum is up to twice as hard to change as everything above it.

GC is a constant ability that is only in use on the planet whos gravity well the ship in question inhabits.

Every structure in the game has this as well, but only hangars and starbases have a decent amount capable of defending a planet. GC doesnt actually give any benefit to the player using it unless an invasion force is sent down to the planet from the following ship types.

 

Warship: capital ship that has a large amount of temporary GC points and whos invasion ability allows a large but temporary GC bonus.

 

War Corvette: lands on the planet to supply a permanent GC bonus up to a maximum of (X). The ability that allows it to do this also is capable of starting an invasion.

 

Planetary upgrades and research: Planetary upgrades can be researched to give planets a small GC bonus, but any serious defense against GC should be invested in war corvettes and other things. Planetary research can be attained in which ground forces gain an air to space weapon whose power is dependant on the amount of GC.

 

No matter how immaculate the defenses, a planet always falls to the sheer numbers of fleets. This is no less true with GC points as they apply to fleets. A very large fleet's GC will always be superior to the planets without a friendly fleets help.

 

Simulated GC animations: A kodiak for example can provide GC realistically because it has a small number of surplus armed personnel onboard, and can also provide planetary laser guided bombardment as air support for friendly forces below where previously its weapons were insufficient without the support of ground forces.

A transporter cruiser also has surplus personnel aboard and can also provide strike craft support. These simulated effects dont infringe the ships dps (damage per second) against enemy fleets at all, but they are simulated for the sake of realism. For example; miniature transporters go to and from the planets from the ships, small vehicles appear on the planets surface, strike craft circle it, and small explosions (smaller than normal planetary bombardment) sometimes appear.

The normal traffic stops due to the planets conflict.

 

When a planet actually gets invaded, unless there is opposing GC it is instantly subjugated. If there is opposing GC, the allegiance will shift slowly in one direction according to whos GC is greatest. Ten way invasions are possible, as are joint invasions.

 

The system, while it could do without, would greatly benefit from realtime land battles:

There would be another window which you could expand according to your preference. The window represents a battle on the planets capital.

If computer performance is an issue, land forces could be very simple 3 dimensional polygons made to represent land forces as if you were commanding them through a computer terminal, still maintaining a sense of realism yet alleviating computer performance issues.

According to the amount of GC, certain units could be created similar to ships in which each is useful in their own way.

The battlefield would be decently sized for a 10-20 minute game against the other players ground forces. I can see ten way battles being a problem however... maybe they would still be possible.

Many units are similar to the ones in space. A land equilvalent to a light frigate would be a simple rifleman, a LRM a sniper, a protev a drone that sets up outposts on designated capture points, kodiak a shock trooper in powered armor, capital ship a tank, flak frigate a ATA trooper, a transporter doubling as an APC and drone carrier, and the support cruiser medics and engineers, etc. And no, Im not saying that those units would only be available if you had the corresponding ship type in the gravity well, Im merely making an analogy.

Reply #23 Top

It would seem Ive derailed my own thread.

Id like more people to comment on the OP. The main idea is, it cuts the amount of managing you would have to do in half, and in some other situations like building starbases en masse or rallying X ship(s) to a specific planet. I would really like to see this in the game so please keep this thread alive by commenting.