The Twelve Days of Christmas

The Faith hidden in song

from JoeUser Forums

Catholics in England were forbidden to practice their faith openly during the years from 1538 to 1829. This song was developed to communicate their gift of faith in coded lyrics. The 12 days run from December 25 (Christmas) to January 6 (Epiphany). The "true Love" refers to God. The repetition of the melody signifies God's continual renewal of His gifts.

A Partridge is the symbol of Christ. The partridge will feign injury  to protect  nestlings who are defenseless just as we are before Satan without Christ. A pear Tree is a symbol of the salvation of humanity, just as the apple tree signifies human downfall.

Two Turtle Doves symbolize the Old Testament sacrifice offered by even the poorest of people in Israel (with which Christ was "redeemed" by His parents at His presentation in the Temple).

Three French Hens, valued for their beauty and rarity, symbolize the gifts of the Three Wise Men, as also the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity.

Four Calling Birds represent the four major prophets and the four Evangelists, the former announcing Christ's coming and the latter proclaiming His message.

Five Golden Rings represent first and foremost the five most precious Crucifixial Wounds of Christ (to which there had long been great devotion and thus the reason for the change in the melody at this point), as also the perfect circle of faith: God's love for us, our love for God, and our love for each other. The number five refers as well to the five obligatory sacraments (Baptism, Penance, the Holy Eucharist, Confirmation and Extreme Unction) as also to the five books of the Bible which make up the Pentateuch, aslo known as the Law, in the Old Testament.

Six Geese A-laying represent the six days of Creation.

Seven Swans A-swimming are the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and the Seven Works of Mercy (there are seven works of Corporal Mercy and seven works of Spiritual Mercy).

Eight Maids A-milking are the eight Beatitudes preached by Christ in the Sermon of the Mount, as well as the eight occasions during the years that were prescribed at that time for the reception of the Holy Eucharist.

Nine Ladies Dancing are the nine ranks of angel choirs, the Spirits who surround the Throne of God. 

Ten Lords A-leaping represent the Ten Commandments.

Eleven Pipers Playing are the eleven surviving Apostles proclaiming the Resurrection of Jesus.

Twelve Drummers Drumming are the twelve minor prophets of the Old Testament and the twelve points of the Apostles' Creed. They symbolize also the Twelve Tribes of Israel, the Twelve Apostles, their number being restored after Pentecost, as also the twelve Fruits of the Holy Ghost, who came down at Pentecost. Twelve also is the spiritual number representing completeness and fairness.

"Adoration of the Shepherds" by Gerard van Honthorst, 1622
 
 
religion
16,841 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

To all my fellow JUsers,

This brings a prayer that you have a Blessed and Merry Christmas and God's Blessings all through the New Year.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Keep in mind that Christianity stole the X-mas event from the Pagans and altered it, and gave themselves credit for the whole thing. There is nothing holy about anything Christian, and Christianity has never ever respected what is considered holy by other cultures/religions.

Respect and tolerance is earned - and Christianity still need to prove itself in order to be tolerated and respected... 

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

Why do you think we don't know where the holidays come from?  You are worried about unimportant things.  The important thing is that we celebrate our savior being born.  That we celebrate our savior rising from the dead.  That we remember.  Some Christians refuse to celebrate the holiday for the exact reasons you state, and that's fine, as long as they remember Christ.  I choose to celebrate on those days with other Christians around me, because it's a tradition.

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 3
Why do you think we don't know where the holidays come from?  You are worried about unimportant things.  The important thing is that we celebrate our savior being born.  That we celebrate our savior rising from the dead.  That we remember.  Some Christians refuse to celebrate the holiday for the exact reasons you state, and that's fine, as long as they remember Christ.  I choose to celebrate on those days with other Christians around me, because it's a tradition.

 

Unimportant things? Christians portray themselves as oh-so-holy, yet they deceive and steal from other religions and cultures... Leave the pagans alone! Remove your churces from pagan holy grounds. Christians have been pissing off territory where ever they went, destroyed cultural artifacts, burned scriptures of other civilizations and so on. What you celebrate is the greatness of Christian ability to destroy - not anything else. Your events are simply repeated to make sure that the territory you stole is constantly being marked. 

I can make a tradition of hunting down Christians, hog-tie them and exhibit them on poles. Since its a "tradition" - it must be right to do, right? 

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting ExpressoKid, reply 4

Quoting Jythier, reply 3Why do you think we don't know where the holidays come from?  You are worried about unimportant things.  The important thing is that we celebrate our savior being born.  That we celebrate our savior rising from the dead.  That we remember.  Some Christians refuse to celebrate the holiday for the exact reasons you state, and that's fine, as long as they remember Christ.  I choose to celebrate on those days with other Christians around me, because it's a tradition.

 

Unimportant things? Christians portray themselves as oh-so-holy, yet they deceive and steal from other religions and cultures... Leave the pagans alone! Remove your churces from pagan holy grounds. Christians have been pissing off territory where ever they went, destroyed cultural artifacts, burned scriptures of other civilizations and so on. What you celebrate is the greatness of Christian ability to destroy - not anything else. Your events are simply repeated to make sure that the territory you stole is constantly being marked. 

I can make a tradition of hunting down Christians, hog-tie them and exhibit them on poles. Since its a "tradition" - it must be right to do, right? 

 

You just compared celebrating Christmas to murder.

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Expressokid, 

Welcome to JU. 

Quoting ExpressoKid, reply 2
Keep in mind that Christianity stole the X-mas event from the Pagans and altered it, and gave themselves credit for the whole thing.

 

Ooooh... the war against Christmas has come early this year....before the Halloween event, now that's been paganized.

Your mistaken assertion indicates that you don't know much about Christianity.

The Old Testament prophet Isaias, born in 760 BC, predicted a  very definite and new form of religion to be given by Our Lord Christ Himself. 2:2-4 

The correct sense of that passage is that when the Christ shall come, He will solidly establish the religion of God and all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from it the ways of God and will walk in His paths under its guidance. This promised religion will originate in Jerusalem. Now, we find that the Christ came over 2,000 years ago and fulfilled this prophecy. He established a Church and prescribed its doctrines.  He sent that Church no longer to the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles (non-Jews)and commissioned it to go forth from Jerusalem teaching all men to observe all things He had commanded. He gave His Church His authority to teach and preach to all nations all days until the end of the world. He promised the gates of Hell will not prevail against it and that He would be with it until the end of the world. All this indicates a very definite religion and a very definite Church. That very definite religion is Christianity and that very definite Church is the Catholic Church.  

Christmas is Catholic in name and origin. The word Christmas comes from "Christ" and "Mass". The feast is so called because on that day the Mass commemorating the birth of Christ is said. 

In the Catholic Church, the suffix "mas" is preceded by the name of the person in whose honor for which the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass is offered to Almighty God. The feast at which the candles are blest is called Candlemas; the feast of St.Michael is called Michaelmas; and the feast of the Nativity of Our Lord is called Christmas.  

During the first centuries Christmas was entirely an in-Church celebration, but the date of the Nativity of Christ  was celebrated on December 25th by the Catholic Church in the year 300 AD. In the middle of the 4th century, the Pope introduced three Masses celebrated in honor of the glorious festivity and it's been that way ever since. One Mass at midnight, one at dawn and the other in in the hours of the day. Those were the days when Christmas was exclusively Catholic, in name, in spirit and in fact. 

The popularizing of this Catholic holy-day among non-Catholics has transformed Christmas into a holiday. 

 

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 5

Quoting ExpressoKid, reply 4
Quoting Jythier, reply 3Why do you think we don't know where the holidays come from?  You are worried about unimportant things.  The important thing is that we celebrate our savior being born.  That we celebrate our savior rising from the dead.  That we remember.  Some Christians refuse to celebrate the holiday for the exact reasons you state, and that's fine, as long as they remember Christ.  I choose to celebrate on those days with other Christians around me, because it's a tradition.

 

Unimportant things? Christians portray themselves as oh-so-holy, yet they deceive and steal from other religions and cultures... Leave the pagans alone! Remove your churces from pagan holy grounds. Christians have been pissing off territory where ever they went, destroyed cultural artifacts, burned scriptures of other civilizations and so on. What you celebrate is the greatness of Christian ability to destroy - not anything else. Your events are simply repeated to make sure that the territory you stole is constantly being marked. 

I can make a tradition of hunting down Christians, hog-tie them and exhibit them on poles. Since its a "tradition" - it must be right to do, right? 

 

You just compared celebrating Christmas to murder.


The christian celebration of christmas IS celebrating murder. Christianity is, after all, a blood-cult. 

Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 6
Expressokid, 

Welcome to JU. 


Quoting ExpressoKid, reply 2Keep in mind that Christianity stole the X-mas event from the Pagans and altered it, and gave themselves credit for the whole thing.

 

Ooooh... the war against Christmas has come early this year....before the Halloween event, now that's been paganized.

Your mistaken assertion indicates that you don't know much about Christianity.

The Old Testament prophet Isaias, born in 760 BC, predicted a  very definite and new form of religion to be given by Our Lord Christ Himself. 2:2-4 

The correct sense of that passage is that when the Christ shall come, He will solidly establish the religion of God and all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from it the ways of God and will walk in His paths under its guidance. This promised religion will originate in Jerusalem. Now, we find that the Christ came over 2,000 years ago and fulfilled this prophecy. He established a Church and prescribed its doctrines.  He sent that Church no longer to the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles (non-Jews)and commissioned it to go forth from Jerusalem teaching all men to observe all things He had commanded. He gave His Church His authority to teach and preach to all nations all days until the end of the world. He promised the gates of Hell will not prevail against it and that He would be with it until the end of the world. All this indicates a very definite religion and a very definite Church. That very definite religion is Christianity and that very definite Church is the Catholic Church.  

Christmas is Catholic in name and origin. The word Christmas comes from "Christ" and "Mass". The feast is so called because on that day the Mass commemorating the birth of Christ is said. 

In the Catholic Church, the suffix "mas" is preceded by the name of the person in whose honor for which the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass is offered to Almighty God. The feast at which the candles are blest is called Candlemas; the feast of St.Michael is called Michaelmas; and the feast of the Nativity of Our Lord is called Christmas.  

During the first centuries Christmas was entirely an in-Church celebration, but the date of the Nativity of Christ  was celebrated on December 25th by the Catholic Church in the year 300 AD. In the middle of the 4th century, the Pope introduced three Masses celebrated in honor of the glorious festivity and it's been that way ever since. One Mass at midnight, one at dawn and the other in in the hours of the day. Those were the days when Christmas was exclusively Catholic, in name, in spirit and in fact. 

The popularizing of this Catholic holy-day among non-Catholics has transformed Christmas into a holiday. 

 

 

"The correct sense of the passage" according to whom? In how many ways can the passage be twisted and turned? Whom truly know the "correct" interpretation? Which present another problem. Why couldn't the Christian god present his worshipers with a book himself that could not be move, not be hidden, was always public, would never decay and could not be changed in?

Catholics are Christians - dixi. There is no difference. Christianity is christianity no matter what horrifying mask is added to the branch.

The original pagan event was celebrated long before Christianity was invented. That Christianity allowed itself to ignore the freedom of other cultures and individuals, and in the same breath justify to steal events from those people, is just an indication why Christianity is so dangerous to the freedom of every single person on this planet. 

By the way - you can't use the old testament - if you do, you will have to accept killing homosexuals as well. You cannot just pick and choose as you see fit. Do you kill homosexuals?


In any case, I still see religious justification of invading other cultures, which is a hostile action. Hostility should always be met with resistance. 

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

Saving people from hell is hostility times ten.

Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 6
The Old Testament prophet Isaias, born in 760 BC, predicted a  very definite and new form of religion to be given by Our Lord Christ Himself. 2:2-4 


The correct sense of that passage is that when the Christ shall come, He will solidly establish the religion of God and all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from it the ways of God and will walk in His paths under its guidance. This promised religion will originate in Jerusalem. Now, we find that the Christ came over 2,000 years ago and fulfilled this prophecy. He established a Church and prescribed its doctrines.  He sent that Church no longer to the Jews only, but also to the Gentiles (non-Jews)and commissioned it to go forth from Jerusalem teaching all men to observe all things He had commanded. He gave His Church His authority to teach and preach to all nations all days until the end of the world. He promised the gates of Hell will not prevail against it and that He would be with it until the end of the world. All this indicates a very definite religion and a very definite Church. That very definite religion is Christianity and that very definite Church is the Catholic Church.  

Christmas is Catholic in name and origin. The word Christmas comes from "Christ" and "Mass". The feast is so called because on that day the Mass commemorating the birth of Christ is said. 

In the Catholic Church, the suffix "mas" is preceded by the name of the person in whose honor for which the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass is offered to Almighty God. The feast at which the candles are blest is called Candlemas; the feast of St.Michael is called Michaelmas; and the feast of the Nativity of Our Lord is called Christmas.  

During the first centuries Christmas was entirely an in-Church celebration, but the date of the Nativity of Christ  was celebrated on December 25th by the Catholic Church in the year 300 AD. In the middle of the 4th century, the Pope introduced three Masses celebrated in honor of the glorious festivity and it's been that way ever since. One Mass at midnight, one at dawn and the other in in the hours of the day. Those were the days when Christmas was exclusively Catholic, in name, in spirit and in fact. 

Quoting ExpressoKid, reply 8
"The correct sense of the passage" according to whom?

According to reason and history.  Christmas is a fact of history. In a point of time and at a definable place the God of Heaven and Earth was born of a woman, and came to live among us as man.  Our Lord Jesus Christ's one true Christian religion is a fact of history. That He established a living Church to teach, sanctify and govern with His authority is a fact of history. 

Christmas is not an isolated historical event like the birth of a president. It is a historical watershed that has separated mankind from his pagan ways. 

 

 
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

The Catholic church has long since abandoned that authority, though. :P

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 3
Why do you think we don't know where the holidays come from?
Because you don't??? None of you religious folk or your churches have any idea at all when Jesus was supposed to have been born, but Dec 25 was decided upon in Rome in the early 4th century. The church calendar in Rome contained Christmas on December 25 and other holidays placed on solar dates: It is cosmic symbolism...which inspired the Church leadership in Rome to elect the southern solstice, December 25, as the birthday of Christ, and the northern solstice as that of John the Baptist, supplemented by the equinoxes as their respective dates of conception (paganism). While they were aware that pagans themselves called this day the 'birthday' of Sol Invictus, this did not concern them and it did not play any role in their choice of date for Christmas"

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

No, we do know where they come from, we just don't care because it's not important.

Not only do I know about Christianity, I also have looked at Islam, Liberation Theology, Budhhism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Scientology, and some others, though some more or less strenuously. 

I find it hilarious that you think that we believe in Christianity only because we don't know that the holidays were chosen for cosmic symbolism dates.  It really doesn't matter which day we celebrate Christ.

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 13
No, we do know where they come from, we just don't care because it's not important.
Obviously, of what import is the truth now when you have all that un-substantiated faith to rely on. Wouldn't want to ruin a perfect track record with reality would you. I just thought you might want to learn something for a change, sorry for the inconvenience. I just stated some simple known facts and you just stated that you don’t care. Yet you continue to bitch and accuse … concerning those things you ‘don’t care about.

Quoting Jythier, reply 13
Not only do I know about Christianity, I also have looked at Islam, Liberation Theology, Buddhism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Scientology, and some others, though some more or less strenuously.
That so ... how did you manage that with your Christian-only computer unable to even review a competing view, let alone a hostile one, just wondering? All you have to do is remove the CGL (Christian-god-lock) from your computer (it is your computer right?) and then you could actually see for yourself where the rest of the world is coming from. I believe this to be another crock from a desperate man trying to maintain his magical world in spite of reality. What methodology did you use to prove to yourself that the Islamic god (all the gods) doesn't exist because inquiring minds want to know?

Quoting Jythier, reply 13
I find it hilarious that you think that we believe in Christianity only because we don't know that the holidays were chosen for cosmic symbolism dates. It really doesn't matter which day we celebrate Christ.
What in the world are you rambling about here. I have no idea at all why you wish to don the Christian label because if I knew I would be working on an antidote. You seem to spend a lot of time telling me what I think and believe and what I mean which seems pointless because you do not seem capable of reading and comprehending what I say.  So you just make this nonsense up … speak it … so it must be true, get a life. When you submerge yourself into someone else’s world view, YOU have to live that life not I. This place where you hang your brain out to dry every day must be a wondrous place. A breading ground of compassion, love and righteousness or something like that but unless you and another drinker are patting yourselves on the back, you are a miserable person. You seem to hate everyone, everything and every thought not already under the Christian yoke. No other religion is right regardless of the fact that you can prove nothing about your own. This of course is not a problem for me as I view them all equally.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

Quoting Jythier, reply 11
The Catholic church has long since abandoned that authority, though.

Not so. As successors in an continual unbroken line from St.Peter, the Pope and the Bishops in union with him have not abandoned that Divinely given authority....they couldn't for this is the provision made for His Church by the wisdom of Christ. And such an authority is the reason for the success of the Catholic Church in bringing souls to Christ which is its chief mission. 

And you should understand this....

Not only did the Apostles and their lawful successors have authority, Christ gave them powers..to sanctify (St.Matt. 28:19 to forgive sin, (St.John 20:23), and the power to govern, "He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." St. Luke 10:16 and "Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in Heaven." St.Matt. 18:18. 

They have power to offer sacrifice ....when at the Last Supper Christ, after instituting the Holy Eucharist (This is My Body...This is My Blood..", bade them to "Do this in remembrance of Me. 1Cor. 11:24-25. 

The Pope and Bishops in union with him still have that Divinely given authority to teach, sanctify and govern in His name, and they still have those powers...they still exercise them too! 

   

Finally, Christ promised to remain for all time with the CHurch He established. If the teachings and commands of Our Lord were to do good only to a few persons living in Judea, the merits would have been very limited. But they could do good for future generations until the end of the world only if there were a visible Society with His authority to carry on His teachings and preserve them from all change. This is His Church and one true religion.

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

So you believe that there are many portions of scripture that only pertain to the bishops and popes, but not your average believer?

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 15
Reply #15 lulapilgrim
Ditto, call me if you need help or want the truth yourself.

PS - Fair enough, chat with you later.

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 16
So you believe that there are many portions of scripture that only pertain to the bishops and popes, but not your average believer?

Yes there are definitely some passages that pertain only to St.Peter (Christ's first Vicar or head of His Church and his successors) and some that pertain to only ST.Peter and the Apostles (and their successors..bishops).

St.Matt. 16:18-19 and St.John 21:14-17 come to mind.  In St.Matt., Christ promised Peter the primacy of jurisdiction over His whole Church. This supreme authority is given to Peter for the benefit of the Church. Becasue the Church has to last until the end of the world, this authority will be passed on to Peter's successors down through history. The Bishop of Rome, the Pope is the successor of Peter.     

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. 19  And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Through the nouns and pronouns, we see these passages pertain only to Peter. When Christ says to Peter, "you are Peter and upon this rock, I will build my Church..", He promises that Peter is to be the natural foundation of His Church after His death.  Christ remains the Eternal Rock by His own power and authority, and for this reason Peter is not His successor, but His Vicar on earth.  

The second metaphor of the keys there is signified that supreme ecclesiastical power is promised only to Peter who will become His Vicar. 

Under the third metaphor his two-fold power of binding and loosening, supreme ruling authority is indicated.  

 

And in St.John, After Jesus' Death and Resurrection, Our Lord conferred the primacy upon Peter alone the jurisdiction of supreme pastor, shepherd and rector over His entire Fold (Church).  

This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead. [15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. [18] Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead thee whither thou wouldst not. [19] And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had said this, he saith to him: Follow me. 

To feed my sheep, is the same as to rule church, the flock of Christ, with the threefold power of teaching, ruling and sanctifying and that's illustrated in the parable of the Good Shepherd. The 4th part record's Christ's prophecy of Peter's martyrdom. Peter will suffer in the likeness of the Good Shepherd who gives his life for his sheep. 

..................

Later on, in St.Matt. 18:18 all the Apostles will receive together the promise to bind and loose with Divine authority, thereby becoming partakers in one of the promises made to Peter, but they do not receive the keys to the kingdom. 

............................

Then for Peter alone, there is St.Luke 22:32, Our Lord said to Simon Peter, "but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." 

I think this is a biggy because Our Lord had previously told Peter He was gooing to give him an especially important mission among the Apostles...that of being the rock foundation of the Church He would found. Here, when His death approaches and He has instituted the Sacrifice of the New Testament, our Lord renews His promise to give him the primacy, Peter's faith, despite his fall, cannot fail because it's supported by the efficacious prayer of Our Lord Himself.

Our Lord's prayer waseffective in respect not only to St.Peter, but also to his successors. Their faith will not fail. This indefectibility of the faith of the Bishop of rome, the Pope, the successor of St.Peter, is guaranteed by the charism of infallibility. which the Divine Redeemer wished in defining doctrine pertaining only in faith and morals when as supreme ecclesiastical pastor and teacher who confirms his brethren in the faith.   

 

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting GirlFriendTess, reply 17
Ditto, call me if you need help or want the truth yourself.

Thanks. Will do...but remember ...truth is in possession. You must possess truth to give it. k6  

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

Lula, the change of wording totally proves you're wrong about 'this rock' being Peter.  "Thou art Peter, and upon thou I will build my church" would mean what you're saying it means, but he doesn't say that.  So what was he talking about just before he said it?

As for 'to thee' those things could also be things he gives to all Christians, which would include Peter. He was simply talking to Peter about these things - but we all get the same Holy Spirit, and there is not one that is greater.  There is simply no Biblical evidence that there should be a Pope with special authority, and the Pope did not even come into being until a guy in Rome somehow became overseer of many Bishops.  If there was supposed to be a supreme ruler over the churches, it would have been Paul, you know, the guy who started the churches and wrote lots of letters to them that now make up the Bible?  But he knew it wasn't him, and Peter knew it wasn't him either.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 16
So you believe that there are many portions of scripture that only pertain to the bishops and popes, but not your average believer?

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 18
Yes there are definitely some passages that pertain only to St.Peter (Christ's first Vicar or head of His Church and his successors) and some that pertain to only St.Peter and the Apostles (and their successors..bishops).

St.Matt. 16:13-19 

And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?  14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus said to them: but whom do you say I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in Heaven. 

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. 19  And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

.......................................

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
Lula, the change of wording totally proves you're wrong about 'this rock' being Peter.  "Thou art Peter, and upon thou I will build my church" would mean what you're saying it means, but he doesn't say that.  So what was he talking about just before he said it?

Yes, Jesus said, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build my Church". Even appealing to proper grammatical usage, "this rock" is Peter for the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter's profession of faith ("Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God") is 2 verses earlier, while his name is in the immediate preceding clause, the closest noun. 

Other Scriptural passages such as St.John 1:42 confirm "this rock" is Peter. It was Jesus who gave Simon his new name: ".....Thou art Simon, the son of John; thou shalt be called Cephas", (which means Peter). The Kings James version has the ending of St. John 1:42 as "which is by interpretation, a stone."

"Cephas" is the Greek transcription of an Aramaic word meaning stone, or rock. "Cephas" was not a proper name, but Our Lord put it on Peter to indicate his role as His vicar  which He later revealed in St.Matt. 16:16-18. Since Simon's fresh name of Peter itself means rock, the sentence could be re-written as "Thou art Rock, and upon this rock, I will build my church." 

Cephas is the same word which St.Paul frequently used to identify Peter, 1 Cor. 1:12; 3:22, 9:5, 15:5, and Galatians 2:9, 2:11, 2:14. 

Anyway, "this rock" is Peter  and Protestants wish to avoid what follows from this which is Jesus' teaching the establishment of the papacy and that Peter will be given supreme authority over His Church. That's why they suggest that the word "rock" could not refer to Peter, but must refer to his profession of faith or to Christ, the Eternal Rock.

  

 

 

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

You don't think 'This rock' applies to the fact that he's the Christ, the Son of God?

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 16
So you believe that there are many portions of scripture that only pertain to the bishops and popes, but not your average believer?

Quoting lulapilgrim, reply 18
Yes there are definitely some passages that pertain only to St.Peter (Christ's first Vicar or head of His Church and his successors) and some that pertain to only St.Peter and the Apostles (and their successors..bishops).

St.Matt. 16:13-19 

And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?  14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus said to them: but whom do you say I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in Heaven. 

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. 19  And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
As for 'to thee' those things could also be things he gives to all Christians, which would include Peter. He was simply talking to Peter about these things - but we all get the same Holy Spirit, and there is not one that is greater. 

Yes we all get the same Holy Spirit and there is not one that is greater, but being appointed a leader or head isn't to be confused with being greater. 

Even apart from the religious significance, the grammatical usage makes it crystal clear that from verse 17 on, Jesus was talking only to Simon Bar Jona, renaming him Peter, promising to give only Peter the keys of the kingdom, (supreme authority), and the power to bind and loose. 

The keys...

Jesus did not give all Christians the keys to the kingdom or the power to bind and loose. No, it didn't happen. But what happened is through the bestowal of the keys from Jesus, Peter obtains primacy over the whole Church. The precedent for this transferal of power stems from the account of Isaias 22:20-22. In the Old Testament, the key is the symbol of supreme power in the kingdom of David because it is irrevocable. 

When Christ said to Peter, "and I will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of Heaven", it's evident Our Lord was promising to give to Peter, who will become His Vicar, supreme authority in His Church.

Power to bind and loose....

That Peter will have supreme power to bind and loose is confirmed in the singular address given to him. ..Whatsoever thou shall bind and loose on earth shall be bound also in heaven." "Whatsoever" shows the extent of the power to bind and loose. There will be a repricocity between heaven and earth in whatsoever Peter decides to bind and loose (in matters of faith and morals.) And since Heaven can't confirm falsehoods, and since Jesus commits heaven to binding and loosing Peter's descisions, then Peter's decisions must be infallible. Heaven must provide a mechanism by which by which Peter's decsions will be without falsehoods. That mechanism if you will was established in 16:17, the Father provided Peter with a divine revealing.

Again, Peter was singled out from the others due to the fact that the Father in Heaven "revealed" to him that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus recognized the intervention of the Father and Peter and concludes he is the one chosen to lead His Church resulting in giving him alone the keys. So, the primacy is given to Peter based on his faith, but a faith that comes supernaturally from a revelation given to him by the Father.

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
There is simply no Biblical evidence that there should be a Pope with special authority,

St.Matthew 16 is the evidence and it is such a stickler for Protestants and that's because it clearly teaches that Jesus specifically chose Peter to be His Vicar (first earthly head) and gave him primacy and supreme authority (full teaching, feeding, ruling or governing jurisdiction) over His whole Church.    

Quoting Jythier, reply 20
If there was supposed to be a supreme ruler over the churches, it would have been Paul, you know, the guy who started the churches and wrote lots of letters to them that now make up the Bible?  But he knew it wasn't him, and Peter knew it wasn't him either.

And according to Scripture Jesus knew it wasn't St.Paul. 

Jesus chose Peter and that's all there is to it! 

It was Jesus who gave Simon Peter his new name, Cephas, which meant rock. 

The night before He died, Jesus told Peter alone, not to fail in the Faith and to "confirm thy brethren." 

After the Resurrection, Our Lord told Peter to "feed My sheep" and to "Feed My sheep."

St. Peter also was the Apostle who presided at the election of Matthias, the Apostle who replaced Judas Iscariot. 

St. Peter was the first to preach to the crowds after the descent of the Holy Spirit at the First Pentecost. 

St. Peter also took the presiding role at the Council of Jerusalem and his (infallible) decision seemed good to the Holy Ghost. Acts. 15:28.  

 

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

Quoting Jythier, reply 22
You don't think 'This rock' applies to the fact that he's the Christ, the Son of God?

Christ is the Eternal Rock, but "this rock" in St.Matt.16 is a special position and authority Jesus is giving to St. Peter. "This rock" is the foundation that gives firmness and unity to His House, the House of God, His Church.