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FE: Promises, promises

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FE: Promises, promises

from JoeUser Forums

For those of you new to Stardock’s games, let me say, welcome! We’re glad you’re here!

For those of you who are veterans, thanks for hanging out with us.

I want to make sure users are fully aware, because it comes up sometimes, that we have intentions/plans for many things and on the other hand we have promises/requirements/obligations.

The former means, we intend to do something but it is not a guarantee. The latter means, yes, it’ll be in there.

Let’s start for the promises for FE:

  1. It won’t be released until we are happy with it.  Now, truth be told, I was pretty happy with WOM.  I was, as many may recall, working 100+ hours per week for the entire Summer before it was released.  With Derek in charge, I can go back to my traditional Executive producer role (ala GalCiv and Sins of a Solar Empire and to a lesser extent Demigod) which usually involves me pooping on the game for months prior to release and telling everyone internally how terrible the game is. I much prefer to distribute the insults rather than aborb them.
  2. The campaign will be good and engaging.
  3. The randomly generated maps will include randomly generated continents. WOM had randomly generated maps on pre-built continents.
  4. There will be a lot of spells. I don’t know what the final count will be. But they will be interesting, important, and exciting.
  5. There will be a lot of soul to the game. The players will talk to you in interesting ways. There is a lot of backstory for pretty much everything.
  6. There will be a lot more quests. There’s a ton of quests in FE. And unlike in WOM, where the quests were virtually all written by me in the middle of the night in the final several weeks (don’t ask me why I had to write these…) these quests are a collaboration between fantasy author David Stern and Toby (associate producer).
  7. Tactical Battles are totally different than WOM. It’s all initiative based now. No more “rounds”. Eliminates a ton of potential cheese and makes magic and tactics matter more.
  8. EVERYONE who bought Elemental: War of Magic in 2010 will get FE for free. Automatically.

Now, let’s talk about intentions for FE:

  1. We intend for there to be spells with a casting time that can then be countered.  This is almost certain to make it in but we have not made it a “Requirement”.  It’ll be based on how “fun” they play out.
  2. We intend there to be multiplayer of up to 16 people. However, it is not a requirement. If it would result in a lot of resources being siphoned off from the single player experience or would, on its own, result in delaying the release, it’ll get cut.
  3. We intend to have vastly more modding abilities in than any game we’ve ever made.  Actually, this is more close to a promise because the game is almost exclusively XML driven because of the project management system (coders don’t implement game design, the producers do and it’s XML driven via spread sheets and such). The AI makes heavy use of this. 
  4. We intend to have a almost completely new sound track. This isn’t a promise. We’ve gotten a lot of new music and effects in and have put them in but we wouldn’t delay the game over making sure all the music and sound is new.
  5. We intend to have Fallen Enchantress at retail. But because we won’t commit to a release date, we can’t promise this.
  6. We intend to have significant faction differentiation. In War of Magic, the Empires all shared the same tech tree and the Kingdoms had their own. Other than that, each faction only had minor differences.  Now, all of the factions are humanoids (we don’t have a spider race, for instance) but we intend for each faction to look and play very differently. How successful we are on this will be in the eye of the beholder.  But we will be making a best effort here to make them as different as we can as budget allows (i.e. we’re not willing to push the date back so that we can have an insectoid race.
338,764 views 169 replies
Reply #101 from Elemental Forums Top

BTW, if you think WOM v1.4 is "worthless" I can tell you right now that you will find FE worthless too.  So if that's really your opinion, you should go find a different game.  Heroes VI is out and so is Sword of the Stars II, you might want to check them out.

 

Reply #102 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm pretty sure I will enjoy playing FE, but are you seriously suggesting we go play a game which's release was so bad it was called 'elemental-like'? The word surreal comes to mind here...

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Reply #103 from Elemental Forums Top

He does mention WoM 1.4, which is a fair amount better than WoM 1.0.  He's not saying that WoM 1.0 was really worth playing.

Reply #104 from Elemental Forums Top

Lol, disaster game release being called "Elemental-like".  Haha, The game is now a permanent part of Video Game history just like E.T on Atari.

Reply #105 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 104
Lol, disaster game release being called "Elemental-like".  Haha, The game is now a permanent part of Video Game history just like E.T on Atari.

Whoa now. I liked E.T. on Atari.

Reply #106 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, my father has played E:wom all the way from day one, he has enjoyed playing it through all the bugs & changes, I"m talkin for hours everyday.  I keep telling him about E:FE, about everything on the forums & such, but he doesn't care he just says 'that he likes this one' & refuses even to check out anything on E:FE.   

 

I just thought this might fit in here with all the E:wom failure talk.  Personally am waiting for E:FE but to each his own I suppose.

Reply #107 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Satrhan, reply 102
I'm pretty sure I will enjoy playing FE, but are you seriously suggesting we go play a game which's release was so bad it was called 'elemental-like'? The word surreal comes to mind here...

There is a reason there are few...very few indie PC games of significant scope being made anymore.

It's very very difficult to make them.  And it's even harder to release them.  Civ V had a budget that was 9 TIMES that of War of Magic and it was able to make use of Civ IV's source code and a pretty solid existing design.  If it weren't a Civ game, you wouldn't be able to justify spending that kind of money developing it. 

I'm sure it makes the griefers of the world smile when they see a Stardock or a Paradox or a Kerebos stumble. But if you want significant scope PC strategy games, you better hope they succeed because nobody else is making them.  Frankly, if FE isn't well received, I'm retiring from PC game development. I've got better things to do with my time. Certainly more profitable things.  And by well received, I don't even mean financially successful. I mean critically acclaimed by gamers and critics alike.  

Reply #108 from Elemental Forums Top

BTW, my point is that with FE, Stardock has pulled out the stops.  If it can't get FE right then it has no business making PC games anymore.

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Reply #109 from Elemental Forums Top

E:FE will be good. It's being made with that special ingredient after all. ;)

Reply #110 from Elemental Forums Top

"E:FE will be good. It's being made with that special ingredient after all."

 

umm... Frog legs? must be cajune cause it be lookin spicy

Reply #112 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 101
BTW, if you think WOM v1.4 is "worthless" I can tell you right now that you will find FE worthless too.  So if that's really your opinion, you should go find a different game.  Heroes VI is out and so is Sword of the Stars II, you might want to check them out.

 

 

EWOM 1.4 is not worthless. i even consider that EWOM 1.05, 1.06, 1.07, 1.08, 1.10,1.11, and 1.12, 1.13 as a good game. Well, the bugs definitely was a trouble, but I see that you have done a lot of effort to fixed that.and I respect that. I personally don't like Heroes Might & Magic series. But, it just me, and my taste alone. So don't tell me to check that game out. 

But I understand of what Mr. Frog thinking about. Yes, FE use the same engine as EWOM. That means, if you consider that the engine of EWOM is bad, then whatever Stardock do to fix that, you won't get orgasm (sorry). So you should move on and seek other game.

Reply #113 from Elemental Forums Top

Frogboy, it makes no-one happy to see Paradox, Kerberos or Stardock stumble. We just aren't emotionally attached to the games you develop before they win us over. I don't envy your position, but I hope you know in your heart that most of us care about Stardock quite a lot.

Reply #114 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 107

Quoting Satrhan, reply 102I'm pretty sure I will enjoy playing FE, but are you seriously suggesting we go play a game which's release was so bad it was called 'elemental-like'? The word surreal comes to mind here...

There is a reason there are few...very few indie PC games of significant scope being made anymore.

It's very very difficult to make them.  And it's even harder to release them.  Civ V had a budget that was 9 TIMES that of War of Magic and it was able to make use of Civ IV's source code and a pretty solid existing design.  If it weren't a Civ game, you wouldn't be able to justify spending that kind of money developing it. 
 

 

Civ V was 9 times the budget of Elemental?  I thought WOM had more budget then that.

 

As for the reason very few games are made, I think that's more a function of downward price pressure caused by Steam sales.  It's hard to make a profit on anything over a shoestring budget when there's a huge supply of games.

 

I just hope FE is worth what I thought I was going to get with WOM.  WOM wasn't worthless, but it was nowhere near what I expected from you guys.

It does look like you've learned from the problems with WOM, so if the AI holds up, I see potential for FE to be a very good game.  AI for fantasy games is a lot harder then space game AI though, I don't envy your job.

Reply #115 from Elemental Forums Top

It makes me sad to see the state of EWOM, Stronghold 3 and Sword of the Stars II at release. I might buy SotS later after much patching and at a reduced price. If it was a quality release, I would gladly buy at full price. Anyways, I am among those who bought EOWM in 2010 and hopefully I will love FE. :) I am looking for a GAME and not fancy graphics, intros and such. Replayability, ramdomization and fun is what I want. There still is some hope for the future:

 

Fallen Enchantress - lets all hope

Crusader Kings II

Kings Bounty: Warriors of the North (the Kings Bounty series is the best thing in gaming since CIV IV)

 

Seems like the Skyrim release is pretty solid compared to the bad launches of late. I might try that one too.

Reply #116 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 101
BTW, if you think WOM v1.4 is "worthless" I can tell you right now that you will find FE worthless too.  So if that's really your opinion, you should go find a different game.  Heroes VI is out and so is Sword of the Stars II, you might want to check them out.

 

Well my wording was a bit too strong but I stand by my comment that I would have never bought E:WoM without a promise of a fix through expansions and I would not buy it today (1.4 version). I would not even pirate it. It is still a boring game. And by saying FE will be the same does not bode well for FE then. I really hope you just said that while overwhelmed by emotions because all your previous previews seem to suggest FE will be pretty different (read better). Actually it seems FE will have all the parts E:WoM was missing. Unless yours and Derek's previews are lying to all of us :hugme:

And sending me to play two of the most buggy games in recent history is an evil comment. Sots2 is also not pirate worthy atm and H6 really needs a patch or two before it becomes fun.

And yes, I also seen people at the kerberos forums use word elemental to describe what happened to Sots2 release :D

I am sorry frogboy, but elemental is on the same list as hellgate london that produced the flagshiped term.

Reply #117 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 107

Quoting Satrhan, reply 102I'm pretty sure I will enjoy playing FE, but are you seriously suggesting we go play a game which's release was so bad it was called 'elemental-like'? The word surreal comes to mind here...

There is a reason there are few...very few indie PC games of significant scope being made anymore.

It's very very difficult to make them.  And it's even harder to release them.  Civ V had a budget that was 9 TIMES that of War of Magic and it was able to make use of Civ IV's source code and a pretty solid existing design.  If it weren't a Civ game, you wouldn't be able to justify spending that kind of money developing it. 

I'm sure it makes the griefers of the world smile when they see a Stardock or a Paradox or a Kerebos stumble. But if you want significant scope PC strategy games, you better hope they succeed because nobody else is making them.  Frankly, if FE isn't well received, I'm retiring from PC game development. I've got better things to do with my time. Certainly more profitable things.  And by well received, I don't even mean financially successful. I mean critically acclaimed by gamers and critics alike.  

 

I definitely want to see the little guys, indies and the middle market companies to survive and thrive.

My 3 favourite companies are Paradox Interactive, Runic Games and Stardock.

I am quite confident that E:FE is going to be great and I will do my part in helping make it a success. Whether that be through beta testing,

buying a copy for my brother and perhaps another friend and generally getting the word out.

 

Of course, E:FE still has to deliver the goods.

Reply #118 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 116

Quoting Frogboy, reply 101BTW, if you think WOM v1.4 is "worthless" I can tell you right now that you will find FE worthless too.  So if that's really your opinion, you should go find a different game.  Heroes VI is out and so is Sword of the Stars II, you might want to check them out.

 

Well my wording was a bit too strong but I stand by my comment that I would have never bought E:WoM without a promise of a fix through expansions and I would not buy it today (1.4 version). I would not even pirate it. It is still a boring game. And by saying FE will be the same does not bode well for FE then. I really hope you just said that while overwhelmed by emotions because all your previous previews seem to suggest FE will be pretty different (read better). Actually it seems FE will have all the parts E:WoM was missing. Unless yours and Derek's previews are lying to all of us

And sending me to play two of the most buggy games in recent history is an evil comment. Sots2 is also not pirate worthy atm and H6 really needs a patch or two before it becomes fun.

And yes, I also seen people at the kerberos forums use word elemental to describe what happened to Sots2 release

I am sorry frogboy, but elemental is on the same list as hellgate london that produced the flagshiped term.

 

Evil? Hyperbole much? o_O

This is computer game ffs, not ethnic cleansing. 

 

Reply #119 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Alstein, reply 114

Quoting Frogboy, reply 107
Quoting Satrhan, reply 102I'm pretty sure I will enjoy playing FE, but are you seriously suggesting we go play a game which's release was so bad it was called 'elemental-like'? The word surreal comes to mind here...

There is a reason there are few...very few indie PC games of significant scope being made anymore.

It's very very difficult to make them.  And it's even harder to release them.  Civ V had a budget that was 9 TIMES that of War of Magic and it was able to make use of Civ IV's source code and a pretty solid existing design.  If it weren't a Civ game, you wouldn't be able to justify spending that kind of money developing it. 
 

 

Civ V was 9 times the budget of Elemental?  I thought WOM had more budget then that.

 

As for the reason very few games are made, I think that's more a function of downward price pressure caused by Steam sales.  It's hard to make a profit on anything over a shoestring budget when there's a huge supply of games.

 

I just hope FE is worth what I thought I was going to get with WOM.  WOM wasn't worthless, but it was nowhere near what I expected from you guys.

It does look like you've learned from the problems with WOM, so if the AI holds up, I see potential for FE to be a very good game.  AI for fantasy games is a lot harder then space game AI though, I don't envy your job.

 

Steam has been good for PC gaming. In fact, if it were for DD, PC gaming would already be dead IMO.

 

Reply #120 from Elemental Forums Top

I think Steam has been good, this isn't me Steam-bashing again. 

 

I think the issue is more a fundamental issue with supply in the PC Market.  There are tons of games, and the shift to DD means you're not just competing with recent retail games, but the classics.  This isn't Valve's fault, it's just the free market.

 

I think this is what is causing the difficulty. 

 

It's a lot harder to make a game people want these days.

 

Reply #121 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 116
 

Well my wording was a bit too strong but I stand by my comment that I would have never bought E:WoM without a promise of a fix through expansions and I would not buy it today (1.4 version). I would not even pirate it. It is still a boring game. And by saying FE will be the same does not bode well for FE then.

Indeed. It does not. You will almost certainly not like FE if you find WOM "boring" at this point.

There are lots of people who find GalCiv and Sins boring too.  It doesn't make them wrong. To them, they are boring.  FE will probably be boring for a lot of people as well.

 

I really hope you just said that while overwhelmed by emotions because all your previous previews seem to suggest FE will be pretty different (read better). Actually it seems FE will have all the parts E:WoM was missing. Unless yours and Derek's previews are lying to all of us And sending me to play two of the most buggy games in recent history is an evil comment. Sots2 is also not pirate worthy atm and H6 really needs a patch or two before it becomes fun.

HOMM VI isn't buggy. I listed the two most recent TBS games released. 

It all depends on what you find is fun or not.

My problems with WOM ,with the benefit of hindsight, include:

  1. It was buggy and unpolished
  2. The terrain was largely meaningless and mostly empty
  3. The AI was not competitive
  4. The tactical battles were not very tactical
  5. The spells in the game had little impact on the outcome
  6. Each game played mostly the same as the other.

And yes, I also seen people at the kerberos forums use word elemental to describe what happened to Sots2 release I am sorry frogboy, but elemental is on the same list as hellgate london that produced the flagshiped term.

And?

People are under the misconception that Stardock has to make PC games. It doesn't. I said it last year with WOM (And clearly it's true), even if our games made $0, it wouldn't have a lot of impact on Stardock as a whole (it would on the games team obviously).  That means, if FE fails, the reasons are irrelevant because we will be done.  I will have, at the point, done everything within my capability to produce a quality PC game. 

Now, having made PC games for decades, I think I'm a pretty good judge of what makes a good game, especially if I'm not working 100+ hours a week for months at a time (if you want to talk about the single point of failure on WOM, that is the biggie, one can lose any sense of objectivity and be unaware of it).

I can't promise that you will like FE.  In fact, I am pretty sure you won't.  But I can promise you that *I* will like FE.  

 

Reply #122 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Alstein, reply 120
I think Steam has been good, this isn't me Steam-bashing again. 

 

I think the issue is more a fundamental issue with supply in the PC Market.  There are tons of games, and the shift to DD means you're not just competing with recent retail games, but the classics.  This isn't Valve's fault, it's just the free market.

 

I think this is what is causing the difficulty. 

 

It's a lot harder to make a game people want these days.

 

I'd have to make a clarification to your point: There are a ton of games out there. But there's only a tiny tiny number of >$1M budget titles released each year and of that, virtually none that are PC-exclusive.

In fact, I am not sure I can name a *new* (non sequel) >$1M PC exclusive game that has come out since Elemental. Can anyone name one? 

One of the big things that made WOM such a train wreck is that it all had to be written from scratch.  Unlike say BF3 or Elder Scrolls, turn based PC strategy games don't have an "engine" they can license.  

And in fact, licensing engines is so expensive that you really can't just do it for the PC.  

Think of all the bugs that were in WOM. Particularly the weird memory ones.  The engines out there you can license have already been through that and squashed them.

I'd love to license engines. I hate spending money writing 3D engines and 3D game systems. But we can't. Outside of a Blizzard it's not really doable. And even Firaxis, which did make their own engine for Civ V would never have made that engine if they couldn't use it on Civ V and the other game I can't mention they're working on.

We've explained to others that a video game is really just a thin layer on top of a very large software system. 

The main reason FE is likely to be well received is that the video game layer knows what the software system can and can't do.  WOM didn't have that benefit.

Reply #123 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 121
People are under the misconception that Stardock has to make PC games. It doesn't.

This is not entirely true.

I have a large quantity of Varoa mites and elecromagnetic radiation stockpiled for the event that Stardock decides to stop making strategy games. Should that happen, they will be released into the environment which will precipitate massive colony collapse throughout the Michigan region of America, depriving Stardock of their primary recreational activity. Let's just hope that it never comes to that.

All your bees are belong to us.

Reply #124 from Elemental Forums Top

Heh.  Anyone who does their research in the right type of threat to make has my respect!

Reply #125 from Elemental Forums Top

Frankly, the game looks very good at this point. It seems to have (almost) all the features people were expecting from EWoM before its release (I mean that in a good way).

Reception is hard to predict though. I assume a good chunk of the people who are into this kind of games already bought EWoM at the time, so they're going to get FE for free. Sure they can voice their (likely, I repeat, at this point) appreciation but they're not going to "vote with their wallets".  Also word of mouth can even generate phenomenons, but it's never really all about pure quality of the items: there are other factors like surprise effect, hitting the right moment, raw chance...

Basically what I'm saying is that even FE's "reception" will have to be judged with detachment, when the dust has settled. The game could be great and still not receive an immediate, enthusiastic reaction. But if the game is good, it will get its credit eventually.