Idea for new ship type in game.

Ramming Speed. Engage. 

Or if you want to make it REALLY deadly, give it a bunch of side firing, short-ranged medium/heavy guns, ala. 19th century broadside.

I think that idea would be neat.  You're saying that you want something that will slow the ships down.  I think that's what mines are supposed to do, not that they do it very well, but I don't exactly know.

You're talking about a Wall-ship.  Ie, a ship that was built with discardable rocket engines.

My only problem with this idea is that if you only had one phase line from your homeworld, then you could build lots of your walls, build a funnel with those walls, and build a whole mess of mines and gun platforms, in that funnel, and bam!, you got yourself an extremely defensible planet.  Then you just place a titan at the end of your walls, and nothing will get through unless they make a "break in the Wall."  Because the titan could blow the enemy to pieces.

My logic is probably far-fetched, but my complaint is logical.

"Daemons run when a good man goes to war."

Solution, reduce mines. I know a few mods have done this, Novus Universum being one of them, and it helps stop the "minefield of doom" people otherwise make. Also makes you tactically place mines and the like.

The Wall Ship (nice name) should be small enough to Z-axis over or under with another ship--just like a planet or asteroid or anything else. 

I'd expect them to be expensive, with longer construction times and have to no shields--just lots of armor with very slow passive regeneration--they would rely on repair stations to heal them.

The "guns" I envisioned are actually similar to MyFist0's jest...they would not have any real range but would do damage on contact.  These aren't starbases or batteries--just large barriers with lots of very tiny automated defense guns glued all over them them.  So essentially you would have to hit the wall for its "guns" to damage you.

I would make them require antimatter to move and give them a really slow recharge time.

I'd love to have them count as "civilian" structures but as we have no structure slots they would have to have some fleet cost to them.  My work around is to design them as capital ships--so no one is going to spam them in place of a capital fleet. 

Tech wall ships could be given an antimatter dependent mine laying ability and flak bursts--that would make them nasty.

Advent wall ships could have the strike craft magnetize and animosity abilities.

Vasari wall ships could have nanite damaging and healing effects.

I'd consider having a couple of strike craft squadrons in each and let them level like capships from combat.

In a perfect world, a Pink Floyd tune would blast out when they went into action.

In an engagement, the wall ships would soak off fire in battle from your fleets if the enemy needed to break though.  An ability could be given to siege frigates that allowed them extra damage vs. wall ships and the antistructure cruisers should also be able to damage them.

The wall ship serves a different function than mines but it would help reduce them--either by replacing need for them in many cases and by making selective placement of fewer mines more effective by creating channels.

Wall ships would have to be nearly as wide as an average planet's gravity well to be useful.

...and I should get kudos for an original idea!

I've stopped updating the mods I was working with until we get past all the new updates and mines was one I was never satisfied with progress on.  Frogboy stated they wanted to make mines less spammy and more practical and fun--I'm hoping so.

    A horrible, horrible idea, what Sins needs is MORE space, with fleet engagement across wells, and strategic decisions beyond " hiding behind a wall ship". You want to take a space game and force corridor shooter strategies upon us?

wbino,

Do you have to download the mod if you don't think it's a good idea?  No.

Do we care if you think it's not a good idea?  No.

Simperium,

When I was writing my earlier post, I actually thought of Pink Floyd's The Wall.  I think having a way of limiting where the enemy could go would also be a good tactical idea, because you can keep your enemy from being able to attack certain places in your gravity well.

If you go through with this as a mod, I'd be glad to help with code and playtesting.  I would like credit for the name, though.

It does and doesn't have its virtues.

On the one hand, adding terrain, in a fashion, to space is always intriguing. This isn't unheard of as Chimaera Stations in Homeworld 2 was to act as a buffer against attacks upon the Tanis Derelict. It had anit-strikecraft weaponry and deployed fighters. Although it's a weak version of what you're proposing, it follows the same idea: stall the enemy. If it was properly equipped with strikecraft and short-range weaponry, it would serve its function without hindering gameplay.

On the other hand, the idea can present a block of sorts. Mines and starbases already exist. In a fashion, this is what starbases are, but utilizing damage versus mobility restrictions. A wall the breadth of a grav well might also be seen as excessive, as half or a quarter of a grav well is still long enough to present an issue to most, especially when it fires back and actually has the HP to make it more effective to go around. Of course, that is another issue. How tough should it be? You have to clear the grav well of enemies sooner or later, and if the wall is so stout that it's better to go around, then how are you going to effectively destroy it? If you nerf it so that it's better to engage than evade, then you're back to having a starbase of sorts.

Ultimately you're talking about a monolith, as described in concept art I saw in Homeworld. Massive structures of legendary proportions, so bulky that they can serve a myriad of purposes. They present two problems in most games. Poly count and game balance. Most places where I have seen them used successfully, they have been fairly large, but not as large as you say, and give boosts to units within the well rather than contribute directly. Of course, most are also capturable.

If you can put it together, more power to you. That along with a Gateship would be great tier 7 toys.

Poly count is no problem--they'd be very simple structures--just a little larger.  The Titan looks pretty comparable.

I wouldn't want to completely block a grav well--just make them long enough to not easily run around.  The whole point is to obstruct fast movement.  Between a half and quarter grav well would probably do.

They also would be small in number.  You're trading a cap ship for every wall and they'll have long build times and high cost.

So essentially, there might be one or two systems with a wall or two or a single more entrenched one--nothing fleet destabilizing.  They would be a real barrier for the Vasari star base but then the star base could chew them up quickly with its guns--at a huge cost to the defender as well.  Might also be useful to buy some time vs. Ogrovs and Starfish.

I'm not interested in making a "full-turtle" option--just adding one more strategy to the tool kit.

Watching the Jarrasul climbing over pirate ships while being chewed to pieces was just neat. Having one surprise system fortified with them could be very interesting.

Major issues

Making the planetary equivalent of Hadrian's wall around a planet is interesting, but it has to be a structure or movement is gonna be a total pain in the ass.  Also, what if the fleet hits the edge of it and turns the thing sideways?  SOASE doesn't use Line of Sight so long range ships have the advantage against the enemy stuck behind the wall.  It hampers all movement, enemy and friendly alike.

Actually using the Z-axis seems to be a major pain in the ass. 

You can't autoplace structures reliably if it is in a template.  You could put it in the pirate template, but the positioning is random.  Also, if given to players, they could build them so close to one another that the wall is impossible to bypass -AI movement is lame.

Will be interesting to see what you do with the idea.

Mod any class of ship with Tech star base self-destruct ability.

With regards that this would inspire a turtle strategy, I don't think this would work. One way to counter this turtling is to allowing the damage to not only affect enemies but allied and owned forces alike.

Ok, I hear another complaint, using this ship as suicidal ships, kamikaze style. Easily countered, send in the LRMs (that is the point of them, prevent kamikaze attacks).

Yeah--the self destruct could be awesome.

It will take some experimenting and that's how I'd look at it in the game--it's an experimental tech that won't be common.

The wall could keep ships at long range to give forces behind it time to rally or escape.  It's really a sort of rear guard--functioning first as a deterrent and then to buy time to rally or escape and occasionally to supplement defenders in battle.

I'm not using the Z-axis just forcing ships to go up or under as they do now on obstacles and the idea is that it is a pain for ships forced to do it.

Maybe the Vasari could have a phase wall that you can fly though when it turned on.

Essentially the wall serves the same purpose as barbed wire does--it hinders, slows and deters enemy charges.

I'll make some simple models and if MyFist0 *cough* will model convert them for me I can try them out.

better. addresses one issue.

I just assumed it would be at best one per grave well.

Understood. And that's where finding the HP/DPS balance comes into play.

For the most part, I would think you would move it into place and put it on 'Hold Position'.

Interesting. How far would the collision detection really take that? A minor tipping or are we talking a new carousel ride?

Well, missiles have the advantage. Everything else is crapped. I imagine it makes up for blocking friendlies by buying you time and having guns of its own.

Like I said, have fun and let me know how it goes.

I'll keep ya posted--I have an idea.

Interesting Idea, I like where the discussion is headed. My only concern is the Cap Ship requirement, I don't think people will pay not only Fleet Supply but also Cap Ship Pts just to have something slow down an enemy fleet. Just my opinion. I know you have to make it prohibitively expensive so its not abused but why not make this a tactical structure? It would give more incentive to actually max that improvement; don't know about the rest of you but I rarely max that unless its at a chokepoint and I want ridiculous amounts of guns/hangars/pji.

If someone does take the time to do this, I think it would be neat to have it look/act race specific as in each race goes about accomplishing a wall in a different way with a different look ie each has its own type of shield, limited attacking capabilities and a fleet buff. If you did this and it took up like 6-8 Tac slots, I think it could be highly effective but not OP.  My ideas as follows

TEC- Giant armored Wall with short range flak burst weapons, mid range lasers and bonus to nearby ship shield & AM recharge.

Advent- Shield Wall Generator with short range TK push, mid range illum beams and bonus to nearby ship PM resistance.

Vasari- Gravity Shield generator with short range Phasic Trap, mid range PM Launchers and bonus to Rate of Fire or Damage.

Aren't tactical structures already limited in number?  I think one can be added that automatically spawns but can't be manually put in the queue--or am I wrong?

I'm also not sure if you can properly orient the model--it would usually face a phase lane and there's no way to rotate a structure.

Perhaps it could be built as a starbase but I am not versed in where to go about that and what the limitations would be.

I'm open to ideas.

sinperium, from what I remember one of the rotateFacingType options for structures/starbases is AwayFromOrbitBody.

harpo

Ah--cool.  Didn't know that.  This definitely could help.

Making it a structure would be a good way to keep it from getting pushed over. At the same time you can face it wherever you want as a cap.

hmm, yeah I guess making it an armed station with the orientation set away from the planet and have it eat up a decent tactical supply would work in your favor. Then hangar bays could fill the rest and eat the enemy up.

I was thinking little tiny men with spears and bows on top but those strikecraft you mention are a good idea too.

Is there an offset to determine how far from the station a structure will appear?

To your question, Simperium, I don't know.  But, I still support this mod and only have one more objection: The idea was probably looked at by the Vasari before they sent their fleet to suicide against the Darkness.

Which means one of two things:

Either the Vasari dropped the idea of a Wall-ship, or

The Darkness has an ablity to destroy everything in a system such as a Phase Annihilator ability.

I wouldn't put that beyond them.

or the devs thought it sounded plain silly

That too.  I think a wall - ship would only be really useful online.  Offline, the AI would just assault the ship like it does on a starbase, through direct attack.

I dunno. I can see using the bomber's ability to go through objects as a cool way to make it work. I think in MP, it would probably go without use considering the likely cost and the human ability to use scouts to find a way around. It's really no different than a DS minefield, which as strong as it is, is usually circumvented.

As I pondered this more with me wee brain, I had the thought of a fourth race mod wherein the new race is a spaceborne insectoid species that is able to use an ability to spawn a model with it's young hatchlings spread in an arc and anchoring a web that acts as "the wall".  It would be a frigate spawn ability (the wall would be the frigate). 

I guess I need to start with modifying the currently in-game ability and creating a simple wall to see how it plays.

I'll go make the model now.