Frogboy Frogboy

Version 1.4 discussion thread

Version 1.4 discussion thread

Work in progress

For the first time since The Corporate Machine, I have a version of one of our games 100% in my hands.

So v1.4 is all mine. Everyone else is now fully on Fallen Enchantress. 

I'm not on FE yet because some of the mechanics are still being implemented so I can't work on its AI yet.

It's just you guys and me.  So it's like being a modder again except I get to play with the source code.

In this thread, I'll be hanging out talking about the "stuff" I'm doing.

 

86,570 views 141 replies
Reply #51 Top

Great list, Brad. :)

Quoting Frogboy, reply 45

3. Fix balance. Specifically, the combat imbalances, prestige imbalances, and training time balances.
 

Can you please give more details about how you are approaching the balance of units, weapons and armour?

Are we still going to have glass canons or is this going to be a serious overhaul? I am excited that this is being addressed but I don't want to get TOO excited until we see the specifics. ;)

Reply #52 Top

In my army every man is expendable. Bell curves mean nothing as long as I can outproduce my enemy.  :banhammer:

Reply #53 Top

I played an old version of the game (1.9 i think) which i had left on my wife's laptop last week. I was asking myself if there is any feature i would revive from that old version which had since been lost?

 

The most significant thing about the old version is that the manner system compels you to use magic in order to save manner! This is because the manner system is unit based and when the manner is full, the manner regeneration is wasted - so it compels the player to use magic which i think is very appropriate given the name of the game 'war of magic' as opposed to what it is now which could better named 'cold war of magic' since everyone is trying to limit their magic usage as much as possible.

 

But i would not want the old unit based manner system as it was, there would need to be some changes to make it work better?

Reply #54 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 47
Re: AI using magic - They do now.  The code was there, just the logic was hard coded.

Christmas comes early. Thank you.

Reply #55 Top

This looks like a very good set of priorities for 1.4. I'm also curious about the balance aspects and how you plan to address that. If you are successful with all of the priorities you have laid out, 1.4 will be a fairly extensive change for the better.

 

Not sure if I missed the latest on this, but what sort of timeline are you looking at? I seem to remember your original 1.4 timeline being closer to the FE beta, but since that has been pushed back, do you have a new goal? You are trying to do quite a bit with 1.4, so I would imagine you would need a significant amount of time to accomplish all of your plans. Any rough idea or will this just be a pure 'when its done' kind of thing.

 

Main reason I ask is because I'm still playing around with modding and I don't want to waste tons of time working on a feature that you will patch in a week or two.

Reply #56 Top

Quoting Sir_Linque, reply 44
Sethai, rolling multiple dice produces bell curves. Only rolling a single die doesn't form a bell curve distribution. It's just a matter of semantics whether you call it rolling dies or using a bell curve.

Correct, but you misunderstand me. The issue is not just getting results to be more consistent, but when and how.

As far as I understand they are implementing a bell curve approach for all attack rolls. You can use a bell curve instead of a true random number generator if you want, but doing so is silly, because we already have a much more natural and less “under the hood” mechanic of producing better damage rolls. Multiple dice. This is already used by groups of units, who do not in reality have a damage of 100, but 5 guys doing 20 damage. This is why units are more reliable, yet never as effective as their high damage stats would suggest.

If you’re going to resort to fiddling the random number generator to produce more consistent, results, then what is the point of using multiple dice for units of multiple guys?

The distinction between units with big attack value and few dice rolls, and lots of guys with low attack rolls is important because it gives the two different types of units different strategic rolls. The big units do more damage against hordes of weak units with low defence values, but heroes and monsters with high attack values might be the only way of doing enough damage to special monsters. It also makes some units less predictable than others: a group of spearmen can be relied upon to do consistent damage, but a catapult might kill a monster with one blow, or it might miss completely.

If you just fiddle your random number generator by applying a bell curve to everything, you reduce randomness, but you’ll also make everything just as dependable as everything else. You’ll completely remove the distinctions I just mentioned.

However, if you make heroes and monsters behave more like groups, and roll multiple dice, then you’ll remove some of the frustrating randomness, but you’ll keep the interesting distinctions that make them tactically different, because you add a new variable: the number of dice. If a monster rolled two or three dice at once, the results will be better, but he’ll still behave very differently to a group of spearmen. And there’ll be no need to fiddle the random number generator. Likewise, if a hero rolled two dice at once (gradually increasing to around 5 through traits) then he’d be more consistent AND he’d be able to compete with units without having to inflate his attack stat to ridiculous highs. But he’d still retain his dragon-slaying uniqueness, because he’d only have 3 or four dice as opposed to a unit which would have 8.

Likewise, this will also reconcile the two completely different damage systems for units and heroes/monsters, and that’s of great value as well.

Reply #57 Top

Quoting Goontrooper, reply 35



Quoting Alstein,
reply 34

Quoting Frogboy, reply 27I was easily able to smack down the AI.  For some reason, the AI units being sent home are not being put into the city, they're outside the city so their sovereigns can't defend.

Also, in tactical battle, the AI unit isn't using spells.

 

This has been a problem ever since you changed the magic system in 1.1.

 

I'd suggest making tactical spells not cost mana again , but be limited by int of the caster (with a bonus for sovereigns, but not infinite for sovereigns)

 

 


 

Please, please, please do this or something like it. I've always hated global mana for making all casters share a pool even for tactical combat. I see magic as a strenuous, difficult task that can exhaust a mage. I like the idea of a mage throwing everything they have at an enemy and running out of power. That seems much  more interesting and entertaining than a mage standing there a shrugging without any mana because some other major on the other side of the realm cast a spell.

 

I like having to manage mana as a key resource, just not globally for all spells.

 

Personally I would perfer a system much like AOW:SM.  Each Hero/Champion with spell casting has his own mana pool. And the Global Pool should only be used by the Soverign but can be cast anywhere in the Zone of influence of his kingom or Empire.

Reply #58 Top

At one point Frogboy was talking about bringing essence back, but he shelved it. Perhaps getting Essence for champions could allow them to use some mana in tactical combat without depleting the strategic reserve. A kinda personal mana reserve for champions. That way we avoid the "Cold War of Magic", which I agree is kinda a problem.

Reply #59 Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 57

Personally I would perfer a system much like AOW:SM.  Each Hero/Champion with spell casting has his own mana pool. And the Global Pool should only be used by the Soverign but can be cast anywhere in the Zone of influence of his kingom or Empire.

I can understand the desire to unshackle tactical magic from the strategic mana pool, but I’d like to come out in defence of the status quo, which has at least got simplicity in its favour. Giving tactical casters a separate pool or allowance not only has a complicating effect, but it opens the door to a lot of ridiculous situations. For example, we currently have spells that can heal and do direct damage that are castable on both tactical and strategic maps. If you give casters separate tactical mana pools, you’ll end up with people wanting to fight tactical battles just so they can cast a healing spell for free, instead of paying for it out of their mana pool.

I know people will find this hard to accept, but a consistent approach has to be taken. If people feel that strategic concerns are straight jacketing them in battle, then I’d argue that a better approach would be to move to a system where mana accumulates to a smaller limit but in a shorter time period, or simply just improve the mana cost balancing of strategic and tactical spells and increase the amount of mana around for everyone.

Right now though, sad as it is to say, taking the breaks off people’s tactical magic (however it is done) is only going to break the game further so long as the AI isn’t casting spells.

Reply #60 Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 57
Personally I would perfer a system much like AOW:SM.  Each Hero/Champion with spell casting has his own mana pool. And the Global Pool should only be used by the Soverign but can be cast anywhere in the Zone of influence of his kingom or Empire.

No they did not. They used the global pool... casting points just limited how much they could use.

Reply #61 Top

Nice updates Frog. What I would like to see is an overall increase in HP on all units. Just really think about this for a minute or two please. I know you want single champs/sovs to be able to wipe out armies but... out of a strategy gaming perspective I don't see the entertainment in that.

Single units could instead have the power to sneak away or dodge incoming groups. Then you would be forced to surround them with groups or send in other single units after them.

Reply #62 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 60



Quoting Bellack,
reply 57
Personally I would perfer a system much like AOW:SM.  Each Hero/Champion with spell casting has his own mana pool. And the Global Pool should only be used by the Soverign but can be cast anywhere in the Zone of influence of his kingom or Empire.


No they did not. They used the global pool... casting points just limited how much they could use.

Ok yes your right but they each still had that casting limit which is what I would like them to shoot for. I am use to thinking of the points as there own mana pool sorry.

Reply #63 Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 59
Giving tactical casters a separate pool or allowance not only has a complicating effect, but it opens the door to a lot of ridiculous situations. For example, we currently have spells that can heal and do direct damage that are castable on both tactical and strategic maps. If you give casters separate tactical mana pools, you’ll end up with people wanting to fight tactical battles just so they can cast a healing spell for free, instead of paying for it out of their mana pool.

A good point, but fairly easy to work around. A simple personal essence system would hardly be so complicated that it would harm the game more then it improves it.

As for healing it is among the few tactical spells that's effect lasts longer then a battle. You could simply move it and any spells like it to strategic.

Another way would simply make personal essence work for both strategic and tactical and regenerate over time up to it's limit. That way players could still save up for the big spells, but use small ones every now and again without compromising later strength.

I want to see my channelers cast magic not just amass it. As it stands you can't really level channeling strength and this would fix that as well. I want to see different types of champions not just warriors, and in a magic "Cold War" you won't. 

Reply #64 Top

Frogboy, I know this is not a major concern, but can you do something with ships, please? Can you at least get the AI to use them? I really enjoy playing super large maps with continents and it sucks that the AI is unable to move over water.

 

Also, can we make the heal spell more effective? Its basically useless in my opinion.

 

I think it is fine that soldiers can be glass cannons but the time requirements for creating units should be severely lowered. Each turn is a season so it really shouldn't take years to train one soldier. A squad of soldiers should be done in a couple turns in my opinion. Soldiers with fancy armor and equipment should take longer because they are more elite but lower tier to mid tier soldiers should be able to be trained relatively quickly (like in 2 or 3 turns). Personally i wouldn't mind it being one turn for unit recruitment only because i just find it silly that it takes a whole season to train a few guys how to fight.

 

Also, some changes to caravans would be nice. (any way to add merchant ships trading between docks?)

 

Reply #65 Top

Quoting BlackRainZ, reply 64
Frogboy, I know this is not a major concern, but can you do something with ships, please? Can you at least get the AI to use them? I really enjoy playing super large maps with continents and it sucks that the AI is unable to move over water.
This is probably more of a FE thing then something we can hope to see in WoM anytime soon.

 Frogboy I remember that a while back some new players were complaining that the lowest difficulty is too hard. Which makes it hard to get into the game. Since you are looking at that stuff anyway you might want to make the lower difficulties more newb friendly.

Reply #66 Top

why does it have to be for FE? I just want the AI to be able to go in a transport ship and move around, it can't be that hard! They don't have to attack, just transport units.

Reply #67 Top

Thanks for the updates. I am looking forward to 1.4 and the FE beta.

Reply #68 Top

In case you guys missed this from the 'Respect the WoM' thread:

 

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
Awesome.

I'm feeling pretty good about the new beta that should be live for you guys tomorrow.

 

 

So we should have a beta within the next day or so,  hopefully. I'm looking forward to trying it out, and seeing the change log.

Reply #69 Top

I think people need to calm down about 1.4 and 1.5. If frogboy is alone on it... it will be polish, and that's hardly frogboy's expertise jugding by 1.3. If he says there's a weapon re-balance that probably means a few weapons and a few armorpieces.

Reply #70 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 69
I think people need to calm down about 1.4 and 1.5. If frogboy is alone on it... it will be polish, and that's hardly frogboy's expertise jugding by 1.3. If he says there's a weapon re-balance that probably means a few weapons and a few armorpieces.

I AM PERFECTLY CALM!

Reply #71 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 69
I think people need to calm down about 1.4 and 1.5. If frogboy is alone on it... it will be polish, and that's hardly frogboy's expertise jugding by 1.3. If he says there's a weapon re-balance that probably means a few weapons and a few armorpieces.

 

Agreed. 1.4 and 1.5 should be bug fixes, balance, and polish. That seems to be exactly what Frogboy is doing, and I'm glad to see him being realistic about his goals. Bug fixes, balance, and polish are plenty of work, especially for a one man show.

 

Any new big ideas need to go to whatever comes after FE, because FE already is too far along for any major feature creep, AFAIK.

Reply #72 Top

The new beta should be out now.

Reply #73 Top

How does one get the beta files? I thought it was available on impulse with the show beta/alphas check on.

Reply #74 Top

Makviel, I'm downloading now. You should just need the 'pre-release version' checked, AFAIK.