people good  god would you stop bitching, I mean the fact that they are working on this game and up holding there promis is more then what most publishers and developers do.

but hey I wont bother I'll instead just play the game a post a semi constructive topic about works and what doesnt work

I think you're missing the point. Some of the people "bitching" have spent hours if not days of their time playtesting, modding, AND reporting issues. The fact these severe issues make it through QA into a "final" patch is frustrating beyond belief. I understand there is a difference between a drive-by forum poster who says something like "GAWD, this game sux" and someone like Heavenfall or others who have invested an incredible amount of time trying to partner with the devs to improve the game.

Honest feedback is necessary for a process, person, entity, game, etc. to really improve. If that honest feedback is ignored (perceived or otherwise) it's incredibly demotivating. Just my two cents; coming from someone who zealously playtested and reported bugs and AI problems in the 1.2 beta series.

I and others really want this game and franchise to kick ass - no pain no gain.

I did not intend for my post to be complaining, per se.

I have lots of other games to play, and if I need to wait for 1.4, for a more stable and better game, then so be it.

I have faith in Stardock. It's why I buy all of their games. I trust Brad Wardell. 

I admire you, Heavenfall, maniakos and the others for this, but honestly I don't know how you're doing it. The game is too boring to even test it and frankly the developers aren't listening.

Not 2 weeks ago I said that EWOM's updates seem directionless and wasteful. Here's another release to prove my point. Time passes and issues just go back & fort in a circular pattern. Yet for some reason the developers think this a worthy endevour, while they go about saying how FE will rock and receive high praise and a high metacritic score. They seem convinced everything they do is golden, that the AI can be worked in at the last possible moment etcetera etcetera, while we, the audience, are already spotting potentially game-breaking issues even with FE. They seem oblivious to our feedback, exactly as they were before EWOM's release. Well, if they have to wake up to reality once again, at least they won't be able to say that they hadn't been warned and had no way to see it coming.

Of course I might be wrong but this is how it looks like from this side. And I think this should count as helpful feedback too, to an extent.

Hmm when i played in the 1.3 version, My Kingdom produces one points Mana.. This is so strange..

!"#$%&/(( I lost the wall of text I was writing here

So a short version now:

I continued to play after I got dropped to desktop the other day. I used my sovereign that gives penalties to my cities to explore and fight constantly. I found new areas with resources and founded 3 more cities. I researched equally in all fields. I got to lvl 4 spells (general + earth).

And then I got attacked at my capital by a force I had no way to stop even with all the troops I had to keep in all of my cities to protect them from numerous monsters. I quit the game (not the 1st time I lost like this). Probably for good this time.

So lets see my options in this game:

1. Advantage by exploration? None. In Civ games you can get tech that speeds up your development or a more advanced unit that lets you conquer early. All I got from this is extra money (which obviously didn't help me) and a bunch of very basic equipment which is only useful for other champions which are too expensive to get. Lets not even go into all the stuff you get by exploration in MoM.

2. Advantage by magic? None. None of the general + earth spells I had could help me beat this army. Yes, I could immobilize the troops for a few rounds until I maybe got another stack of units out but it would not help me. I would have been better if I ignored magic altogether (more money for troops and less rounds spent building arcane academies). All the magic I needed anyways was familiar + heal so my sovereign could adventure without needing to return. It would have been more useful to use alchemy to turn mana to gold and build more troops.

3. Advantage by tech? Kind of no. One of the most basic tactics of 4x games is to risk early game and outech your enemy. I done this in Sins, BotF, Master of Orion 2, Sword of the Stars, all Civ games and MoM as well as other games. In this game this only works if you tech in Warfare. Armors and weapons all you need and your only real option. One branch out of 5. Such a bad design and in year time after this game is out it stayed the same kind of bullshit. I lost because I didn't tech in warfare only and spent all my resources and money into troops with these techs.

Not to mention how the tech tree is impossible to plan, there is no easy way to see all the tech and see what leads to what (unlike Civ 5, Sword of the Stars or even Sins - your own game). Not to mention how tech from the same tree cost the same even if it is a level lower (who ever came up with this idea and through it was good should be permanently banned from designing games - or designing anything).

4. Advantage by money/resources? None. In this game resources are not a tactical option, but only a requirement. That is bad design. Yes, you can turn extra cash into champions and equipment for them but you cannot buy troops. There is no easy way to get an advantage by hoarding money, mana or other resources. Amount of cash you have was lowered a lot from before and that broke the game in my opinion. Before all you done is buy champions and equip them and you still had cash left over. Now it is totally opposite of that. Options are still missing. Even worse, to make a decent group of troops you need to spend 150 gold (and that is before metal armors) and then wait for 9 turns. WTF? All other games give a lot of turns but lower prices and a way to buy the build time.

Anyways, as you can see I complained about the pillars on which this game was built upon. And yes, they are crap, not well thought out and not well implemented. I just hope FE will not be using these same pillars or I can say already this whole game was the most wasted money in my life.

@TorinReborn

Yes, much of your frustrations come from design elements that were a great idea, but have been poorly implemented. I would like to tell you about how great the tech system was supposed to be made. It was based on you searching the past for old knowledge, not knowing what you'll find. Each time a discovery is made you choose from a random list. You can choose the basic area of research but not the outcome. There is supposed to be rare and random technology popping up in every game. There is supposed to be balance in every tree so that you don't have to worry about a specific research order like you would do in Civ or Galciv2. A small amount should be spent in every branch, but the game would have been flexible enough to make your surroundings determine what areas would be most beneficial to you. A small group of adventurers or an army of summoned beasts would be possible given what was around you at the start. That is where exploration comes in. The game would last for 6000 turns and you still might be in a tech war against the last empire of darkness. The tech trees are infinite, so the game can continue well past a preset limit of techs. 

Obviously this is not how the game turned out. Here is my tech order for winning:

(make your own maps that have balanced resources)

1.Harvesting-need to be able to use resources

2.Quests-need to use lost temples

3.Equipment-killing

4.Weapons-killing

5.Barracks-reasonable training times

6.Production-get that mill up and running (also the only great tile art in the game)

7.Armor-makes you invincible for the most part

8.Doesn't matter just steamroll the comp until you get what you need.

P.S. Your starting Sov just needs charisma and intelligence and all the magic books. I like to sap all other attributes and load up on traits to make my offspring invincible. 

=win

Sorry it didn't turn out that way, but I am currently researching a dimensional rift I found to see if I can get season two of Firefly and the good EWoM for a fair price.

Still wankz...lookz like nothing has chandged

Even in the idealized version that you describe, there is a fundamental flaw.  Basically, it only works if every choice is likely to have roughly equal value at every point in the game (with environmental modifiers changing things, sure).  But that's not ever going to be true when you have a progressive system, where you can research a much better version of something you've achieved. For example, every level of weapon is better than the last - obsoletes it completely, really. So now I have a choice: pick a much better weapon, or get some other basic tech that I didn't choose last time.  The thing is, the much better weapon has much more value, but the exact same cost as the more basic (and less effective / valuable) military tech.  While it was a bold experiment, I'm afraid that TorinReborn is correct that it is a fundamentally flawed progression.

I hadn't meant to comment on this thread, I promise - but when I saw this I wanted to make sure this problem was clearly defined (I probably failed:-p)

TL;DR: when choosing among things, if a more valuable choice costs the same as the less valuable alternatives, you will effectively always choose the more valuable. Which is neither a fun nor an effective way to run a tech tree.

Quoting tanafres,

"For example, every level of weapon is better than the last - obsoletes it completely, really. So now I have a choice: pick a much better weapon, or get some other basic tech that I didn't choose last time."

There is seriously no hope for FE is this is their idea of fixing this game.

The game still feels pretty flawed to me.  No reason for a 1.4.  I feel like Walter Cronkite, The War in Elemental can no longer be won.  this game can not be fixed.  I had faith, but it can't be done.  I don't think Brad, for all his good intentions, can actually see the game for what it is and change what really needs changing. 

I would be fine with 100% focus on FE as well.

Me too! I vote to ditch EWOM!

+1

hire heavenfall and have him decide what needs to be fixed, you guys are failing.

if they cant fix elemental:wom, how could they do any better on FE

Different project lead, several months of dev time rather then trying to patch an already released game, and something resembling a professional design process?

If they can't fix FE, then I'm with you that it's time to pack it in on the franchise. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to condemn it as a failure before then.

^ Nicely said.  I'm keeping an open mind to the fact FE has every chance to not be the on-going embarrassment that EWoM was.  It'll be lovely to play a new installment of Elemental that does not slow down and inevitably crash after every 20-50 minutes (regardless of which patch I'm currently using).  It's a really nice idea; hopefully not just a dream.

Interesting.  I recall you mocking and scolding soooooooo many people for merely uttering the very same remarks over the past several months, those validly criticizing the once infallible game you always rushed to defend at all costs.  Yet here you are.

No harm done though.  Some are simply able to grasp the reality before them much quicker than others. 

Yep, it's mind boggling. Game advertised as the best ever by Stardock: within a few gaming attempts many of us were aware that it was a complete failure... and that it was beyond fixing. All that was going to happen with these clumsy attempts to patch it was pretty much written and foretold repeatedly (yet it's still been painful watching this unfold throughout the course of the year).

FE might be a different beast. So far, there've been some good signs and several bad ones. We shall see.

I hate this kind of defeatist attitude. Defeatism never leads to success. One reason people like Brad make it big is that they don't quit after the first setback.

Get your facts straight, since day one I have complained about the problems of this game. I can go and necro threads to prove it. I have lashed out at people who acted like children about the state of the game, not about making comments about flawed features of the game.  Maybe I held onto hope far longer than it was reasonable, I will give you that, but I have never been blind to the faults of the game, just the ability of them to be recognized by Brad and for them to be fixed.

Nobody denies that it's turned nicely for Stardock. It is *us* who got an unplayable game. I trust Brad can make his company thrive, but about making his games work... not so much, at this point. See, keeping the resolve and the attitude is good, but you've got to acknowledge your mistakes first if you really mean to grow past them. I thought it would be possible. I've always been a defeatist about Ewom - because the game *is* beyond repair - but with the (faint) hope that a lesson learned the hard way could be beneficial for the next installment (FE, as it is).

You just have to read the last comment posted by Brad to realize he *still* won't acknowledge Ewom's fundamental design flaws, he *still* blames the new engine, their "bad luck" or something. And he still claims the patches have "improved" the game when even his most loyal and patient supporters are finally giving up and shelving the game for good. It's almost amazing really.

I want to start this post by pointing out to you how the post I quoted said "if they cant fix elemental:wom, how could they do any better on FE", and how that is completely against your views. Actually we disagree with very little.

I agree with the point that Brad is desperate to make EWoM playable. It's understandable though, the failure of the game must be really tough on him. It's essentially his first flop designing games. I too hope that he would completely move on from WoM sooner rather than later, as I have very little interest on the game anymore now as FE is coming along. But coming from

But I disagree with you on Brad not aknowledging the mistakes. In FE Derek Paxton is at the helm, and that basically addressed the fundamental flaw in Elemental's design. Brad blames the infrastructure of their game design team, which was nowhere as structured as it should've been.

Keep in mind that it's not Brad calling the shots with FE.

Uff, I finally played Age of Wonder Shadow something (:D) this weekend and from the moment I started it it felt like a much superior product then EWoM. From the more pleasing to the eye art style to the better and more spells, to 10x better and more interesting combat.

I knew about the game from before but I always thought it was just another HoM&M clone. If I knew it was a Master of Magic clone with better graphics I would have played it years ago

Anyways, now I think even less about EWoM, and expect even less of FE.

Now that you mention it, I happen to agree with your comparison of Elemental with a game released in 2004. Game mechanics aside, I have quite a dislike with Elemental's art style. I feel that only a minority of gamers would be attracted by it when compared with the more eye-candy look of a gem like Age of Wonders. The GUI alone puts Elemental's to shame.

Here's to a vastly improved FE.

I have begun to realize the fundamental flaw with forums is that we all respond faster and in greater number than it is realistic to expect from the developers of the game. We may all come to a consensus here about quality and hopes and the vitality of the game, but no one is going to change anything. I think it is time to just wait till January 2012 to see if the game is any good. 

I am assuming that is when the game will actually come out give a fall release date.