Late GS QoT build

hey - if fashionable = pacov likes it... 

I like this build as a reasonable alternative.  I also like the pick up for BS1 at 2 and not leveling it further.  I get your point about holding off on ground spike until later, but when used well, it gives you even more staying/killing power early.  The problem... most particular in laggy games, is in wasting mana on useless ground spikes here and there.  One early miss and you'd pretty much be better off using ANY other build as you are likely close to oom and got nothing out of it.  As long as you are disciplined, the early ground spike can be quite effective and result in a tower torn down super quickly (normal tower game, ofc).

Anyway, I like the general points of your build.  Not my cup of tea atm as I'm still loving the hyper aggressive/running for my life qot build and toying around with that.  Certainly what you've come up with has some staying power and encourages you to play more cautious (as you don't need to be in open form until later in the game).  The aggressive build is pretty similiar to what you have here... just that gs comes sooner than later.  Once we hit around ws 11 or so, the builds are pretty damn similar. 

So, pros for your build vs aggro qot

1. > staying power.  You aren't as likely be to duking it out and drop alot of HP as you'd more likely try to kite while your troops do some dmg. 
2. less chance of death
3. less mana waste

pros for aggro build

1. > dmg output and chance for kills
2. around ws 5 or 6, the chance for ganks go way up on a coordinated team.  spike wave + gs + minions.  This is still early enough where spike wave it going to have an impact (long before jtreads hit the field)

Once we hit around ws 11 or so, the builds are pretty damn similar. 

Yes, that's the point. I do not doubt the conventional wisdom in general, I just think early game staying power > damage. Btw, this build's DoT is not too shabby: ranged cleave, 4 shamblers, 2 demos and 2 monks with Morale 3 do hell of a lot of ranged damage. Of course, it has no burst damage to speak of until 10+.

One early miss and you'd pretty much be better off using ANY other build as you are likely close to oom and got nothing out of it. 

100% true. Similarly, I was forced to concede some laggy games playing Sedna builds relying on WoS, for example. A great item, no doubt, but it's not so great when it refuses to activate -- which it does in laggy games.

I think GS 1 is nearly an absolute waste. Low armor reduction, low damage and cost equal to GS 2 (both 500 mana). Pathetic. Unless enemy is weak, you might get something out of it. Since GS 2 everything is fine though.

As for build overall, maybe not bad. I like variety

maybe not bad

Maybe?! Just maybe?! I will kill your Reg in 15 seconds, I swear!

Not under high towers. Just some mines and mark to blow your "army" and some long range attacks to use up all your mana, and 15 seconds... When I have so many potions with me...  No chances

High towers is for noobs.

-ppapanek

There is maybe some truth in it. But I like the high tower setting... But it fits of course! ^^

Hosting a game without is a no go.

Maybe. But normal towers are for minion users. Give my Regulus some demolishers and some little flying angels and I'll be fine with that.

Maybe. But normal towers are for minion users. Give my Regulus some demolishers and some little flying angels and I'll be fine with that.

Sure, you cheater. Fight like a man, stop running away! 

Oh, that gets offtopic here! ^^

For me, I always played QoT in closed mode, with RoDM and full minion (some would say full retard ). Mulch shamblers is a great skill, I don't know if I would feel comfortable in switching forms. Or maybe not yet, because there comes the day when I might get bored of it and try your build (and if I'm more skilled in using QoT maybe )

Mulch shambler is more egoistic because you can't help other with it, while mulch shambler only saves your own ass. When it comes to teamplay BS is the better skill I guess.

Uggg... no

Demigods get armor as they level, this build makes me sad.

Even limestone armor Rook nullifies your Gspikes 1-3 multiplier potential with only Nimoth armor (he will have that by 8) and not go below 0 armor.

The damage multiplier is not linear, the further you get below 0 armor the more damage you do.

You need to make those punk ass bitches fear you at Levels 4-7 so they take scale mail instead of banded or saving for a 1500 item, lowering their gear compared to your team mates while still getting raped in the bum by a G Spike / Spike Wave gank bang when you TP in at 5 (because you bought a TP instead of a mana pot at the start of the game)

Come on, L-O, don't be so disappointingly trivial  However, it gives me the right to answer you in the same elementary school teacher vein. Take that!

It's obvious DGs get armor as they level. Now, there is a tactical perspective, and then there is a strategical one. In other words: do towers and creeps also get more armor as you level, eh? A rhetorical question. Siege functions (mainly demolishing mid) + dealing with strong creep waves are what QoT is crucial for in a long run, not some hypothetical early game kills, which you won't get anyway vs skilled opponents. And, trust me, those corner towers fall quickly anyway when attacked by a no-GS strong minion QoT.

Early GS = an easily dodged skill, a waste of mana, and your stellar chance to be mercilessly killed while in a much, much, much inferior mode. Late GS = getting this strategically critical, yet tactically overrated skill exactly when really needed and your opportunity to deal adequately with QoT's early game mana shortages. In fact, the only matchup for QoT in which early GS > late GS is, obviously, a tower-whoring Rook.

OK class...

1) You are in FAR more danger levels 10+ in open mode then @ levels 4-7
2) You are in GRAVE danger without at least Spike Wave I @ level 5 (how can you do anything safely BUT demolish a corner tower)

When you are a grad student, you will find that you are safer in open mode with mana for a spike wave then in closed mode.

Edit: I am edit retarded today etc... if you are wondering what is going on with these 2 posts lol.

Not to be construed as anything other than discussion on why I don't agree with your build taking Gspike late.

I've showed you my build before and here is the meta overview to compare vs what you are doing in your build.

1) BS1 is taken only because it gives you lane superiority levels 2-5
2) GSpike and Shamblers III over Morale and Shamblers because it gives you damage superiority
3) Spike Wave is your best defense from death after level 5, always take it at 5
4) Level Shield and Mulch late game because your DG now sucks and you need this to not die while doing stuff. The game usually never goes this high, but I'll fill out the build for others.

Build

1) Shambler I
2) Shield I
3) GSpike I
4) GSpike II
5) Wave I
6) Shambler II
7) GSpike III
8) Shambler III
9) Mulch I
10) GSpike IV
11) Mulch II
12) Shield II
13) Shield III
14) Shield IV
15) Goddess
16) Mulch III

This actually plays alot like yours, the difference is the Gspike gives you crazy push factor with an aggressive team, the spike wave is for both team offensive and defence (wave is better for saves the BS1) and late game the build exits to a focus on not dying since QoT's offensive power is rapidly dissipating. (mainly the worthlessness of GSpike on DGs as time goes on [armor goes up, life goes WAY up so no white damage multiplier and poor magic damage % vs total life] preventing your team from accomplishing anything in a group fight)

This actually plays alot like yours

Yes, I've taken time to re-read that PM, in fact, because I thought the builds are similar

Seriously, I think your analysis is good and does make sense. Why do I advocate a counter-logical skill progression, then? Well... If DG online were full of skilled aggressive teams that are 100% aware of QoT's benefits and limitations -- I would be crushed by your logic. However, that is not the case. I have devised my build desperately trying to find the middle ground between "the safe QoT" and "the QoT that does the essential QoT job done". The essential QoT job, in my opinion, consists of: saving/helping with BS; dealing with later game creepwaves; destroying enemy mid/cit.

Early GS may sound wonderful in theory. Practically, though, in casual matches: (1) you are hideously unsafe and always need help, (2) you are always oom, since you have to purchase Unbreakables first, and (3) the teammates usually don't reap the benefits of those early GS debuffs, just leaving you to perish when you port in and do a glorious 250-500 AoE that tickles those squishy Regs and TBs.

In skilled matches, on the other hand, people are way too aware of what you can potentially do with those seemingly crappy AoEs. The chances are, you won't hit a single opponent with GS. I know I get hit with GS maybe once per 5-6 attempts when I play Sed vs QoT in lane: way too aware of the exact skill hitbox, and anyhow, hybrid QoTs signalize they are going to ground spike you several seconds before (it's not open->ground spike, it's more like ooooooooooooooopen->ggggggggground spike).

Few quick notes if u let me. 

Orion, whats the point in taking both shield and GS early on when u have mana pretty much to use only 1 of them. And if you do want to play offensive qot than why take shield at all? Instead of taking shields you shud raise your dmg output so you wont be useless lategame as u suggested. So do take morale instead of shield. The reason for that is that u need less mana cose you only using wave and GS. This way you can get idols and fell-darkur faster. All i need with my build is unbreakable, boot for 1000 1 helm and then later ofc fell-darkur, maybe nimoth. With wave and boots, you will be safe enough from ganks till late game. And as they say the best defense is offense. 

Orion, whats the point in taking both shield and GS early on when u have mana pretty much to use only 1 of them. 

A miracle! We seem to agree on this point

You must spam too much

With the mana flag, even if you spam, you can fire off 3 of either skills in a row without any mana items.
When you are out of mana, in closed mode you can regen enough for a shield in 1 minute, or a GSII in 1 minute 30 seconds.

So what you are saying does not reflect reality.

>> So do take morale instead of shield

Oh good grief, with Monk idol and Shamblers I, morale is worth 10 DPS ontop of the 190 DPS you are already doing. That is a waste of a point early in the game.

Well my im playing extremly agressive with my qot. Either to get kills or get towers down faster then the enemy. Therefore i cant waste mana on shield. Im not happy with only keeping lane control.

Morale is for mainly demos anyway and since i never have to use shield then ill take that 10 DPS instead wasting my point on a skill i wont even use.

Btw i can keep lane without shield easy so that skill is pointless if u dont get ganked early on

With the mana flag, even if you spam, you can fire off 3 of either skills in a row without any mana items.
When you are out of mana, in closed mode you can regen enough for a shield in 1 minute, or a GSII in 1 minute 30 seconds.

So what you are saying does not reflect reality.

What he is saying does reflect reality, in fact. Now, I'm great at mana conservation. Really. If there is one aspect of this game I'm nearly perfect at, it's mana conservation. I don't spam skills unless necessary (and even then, I never spam them at will). Still, I cannot lane vs good player(s) using both GS and BS when necessary and not running desperately oom. In closed-only mode, with the build outlined, I have enough to re-summon shamblers/monks and shield the lanemate during emergencies. But only barely enough, and I am a real miser with my mana reserve. If he plays open-only, he should be oom much sooner even with GS only.

If you have a replay of hybrid GS/BS QoT early game making timely use of both skills and still not running oom -- in a skilled game, that is, pray share it with me. Until then, I prefer to trust my own considerable experience with QoT.

WTF is wrong with both of you

1 of your build shows shield 1 @2
1 of your builds shows GSII @ 4

You are telling me, that you cannot wrap your mind around the fact that someone might use either or styles depending on what is happening early in the game, and is not actually chain spamming skills repeatedly early on?

You don't use shield for defense, you use it to yellow flags and tower dive early on.
You don't use GS2 to attack demigods unless they are asking for it, you use it on towers when left alone in the lane, because it is REAL easy to send a tower hugging hippy to base with shield.

I dunno, stop playing on high tower n00bs? Probably the only reason where I could see you not understanding this

I dunno, stop playing on high tower n00bs? Probably the only reason where I could see you not understanding this 

When I think about it... That may well be the case. I keep forgetting you are an antediluvian relic The default setting now, even in 50% of skilled only games, is high towers. So it's not a noobiness on our part, it's just a desire to adapt to the ever-changing reality