Royalist and Rebels :Expensive Ships vs Cheaper Ships

I would like this not to be the case. The whole "expensive and strong vs. cheap and many" is a very generic and over used balancing tool. I want something more unique.

I don't think at this point its going to matter because this balancing will have to take place in some form or manner. I think i wasn't clear enough in my explanation so i'll break it down to u. This is the balancing so far:

Military

Vasari: Heavy

Tec: Balanced

Advent: Light

Economics

Vasari: Resource Miners, High Population Growth

Tec: Traders=Trade Ports

Advent: Culture, Low cost production

Heavy, balanced and light will be juggled around for the rebels and the economics as well. E.g Culture with resource miners together.

This way variety is created while creating a whole new way of playing the faction and results in the need for a new tech tree for each faction

If this sort of re-balancing does not happen then all u get is a cosmetic make over for the the Vasari for example, renaming technologies, ships, designs while they still play the same. Its too boring for me.

There's way more interesting ways to balance than 'heavy, medium, light', as Kyogre says.

Even [earlier] Command and Conquer games do good by mixing it up:

Nod/Allies with dirt cheap spam units and awesome tech toys and sneaky tactics.

China having at the same time the weakest and toughest units in it's game. GLA in general.

But the real winner for interesting asymmetrical balance is Universe at War.

Novus is cheap... and you'll lose in a stand-up fight every time. Instead they have a stealth network that allows them to move many times faster across the map than the others.

The Hierarchy's main base consists of giant combat walkers reminiscent of War of the Worlds.

The Masari can switch their entire faction between modes that give various benefits to each unit.

And each faction has secondary unique game mechanics, too.

So yeah. The whole point of the rambling post is that balance is perfectly achievable with non-symmetric sides.

build upon it?--thats what they will do,...some game mechanics are universal otherwise there coming up with major game changers.

I wold like to see the Vassari Rebels get inhabited low firepower starbases as an option that can be built relatively cheaply in asteroid or star wells, but cost much more if built in good planet wells.

The Rebels would start with one of these starbases as their home planet, and it would cost more for them to research planetary technologies. However the inhabited starbase would improve the quality of low end wells economically and materially.

I never use non Vasari forces, so that's all I got It already makes different planet types more valuable for rebels, it makes them make a decision whether to build a military or inhabited starbase in a well (later on), and gives them a different "feel"

I agree that the High quality versus Horde balancing system is already used in the game (and many others), and using it to balance Rebel versus loyalist would not add to the game one bit, it would in fact be a lazy design decision.

How about rebels get the 'prototype of ships' while royalists get 'the actual ship'. for example, the TEC Jarvis will remain the same for rebels, while royalists get the TEC Jarvis V2! more powerful, less flaws but ultimately more expensive.

Maybe rebels could get along with the pirates much easier and get a lot of assistance from them. Maybe the pirates could get a lot of assistance from the rebels too making them stronger also.

And as far as Diplomacy goes perhaps rebel factions could relatively easily form strong alliances with each other, whereas Royalists find forming an alliance with any other faction much more difficult and costly.

I like the idea of each individual faction having its own unique characteristics a lot better than just the strong expensive verse's many weak. I'm sure there will be more to it. In any case will just have to wait and see.  

In the expensive strong vs weak and cheap the expensive would always win.  Simply put u can retreat beefier units from battle field much easier and repair them instead of losing them.

Yeah, Rebels need to work primarily based upon the idea of well, being rebels.  That said, are these rebels like the South in the American Civil War or are they just a bunch of random people on random planets that aren't coordinated?  That makes a huge difference.

More like the rebels of the CSA with a government and official military.

I also agree the simple cheap/expensive would be a terrible thing to implement on a faction wide scale. Ideally some Loyalist ships will be upgraded to be more powerful and more expensive than the Rebel ships, but the Rebels may have others kinds of ships that they improve on (and would thus be more expensive). To go along with the analogy, the CSA did this quite a lot with the CSS Virginia and the like. Just because they are Rebels doesn't mean they don't have the funds to develop more expensive weapons.

Why cant rebels be able to adapt there ships? for example instead of a normal TEC LRF which fires missiles, why cant rebels decided to change it to either an long range artillery frigate (firing heavy shells into a battle) or completly changing it to fire beams? (like a kol ship?)  making it an MRF?(medium range frigate)?

Rebels have always been known to adapt into other peoples technologies, due to financial constraints and maybe due to embargos from the nation they are breaking from, maybe by infusing vasari and TEC technology to create a new breed of ships?

I would like to see Rebels be a faction that can also spawn during a game if a faction doesn't have a high enough culture level somewhere far from the homeworld.

Of course this wouldn't be the only way to start them as people would want to play them from the beginning also, but it would be a cool option. Large empires with low culture (or a new game option, happiness, similiar to Civilization 5's happiness with related structures and technologies)

The benefit to this is htat a large empire might spawn multiple rebel factions at it's edges, some might get shits in the area, others might be as weak as milities at first. They would first try to capture worlds in the spawning faction, then start operating as regular factions later on. They might also have large diplomacy benefits towards other rebel factions from the same empire, with the ability to merge.

This coudl be a lot of fun. Post start spawning Rebel factions would keep large empires on their toes, needing to spend more money on keeping the people  citizens happy. It would make smaller empires more flexible, and give them the chance of coming back if they supported rebel factions in their enemies.

Just having Rebels as different techs isn't really making them rebels, Make them actually rebel.

Other things they should do, their Diplomacy ships should be able to start rebellions in other planets. I like the idea of getting along better with Pirates. How about being able to masquerade as pirates and hit your own friends without starting a war? (something you could do in Civilization 4 IIRC) Take their stuff and say "it was the Pirates not me!" (but with the chance of being found out also.

How about being able to start pirate bases similiar to colonizing a planet, you get a portion of the loot, and they never hit you? Or perhaps a Rebel Spy can attempt to blow up a starbase or sabotage planetary facilities, successful missions result in that spy gaining experience (each Faction can build only a limited number of spys based on their spy technology and the spy academies they've built) Related to this, Fleet leaders can be trained and gain skills as they win battles. Planetary governors can also do the same thing(giving bonuses to planets and their wells), But the higher level governors might be more likely to rebel (they want a peace of the pie)

I would like to see Loyalists get new skills also, Spy insertion corvettes that let you look at what's happening on a foreign planet (even a pirate base) or star base perhaps,

Observation stations that give you more info but are cheaper than starbases, various technologies to keep the civilians happy, from gladiatoral pits to ballet theatres depending on race. (as examples)

Happiness as a new game system would add to the depth of the game. Some planet types would just be better to live on and have happier people (it's nicer to live on a Terran planet than on an Asteroid for example)

Let's think a tad bit realistically here for a second and figure out what each rebellious faction would actually want.

TEC Rebels: Tired of the oppression caused by the now-massively overgrown TEC government, they have chosen to secede.  This is likely on a sector basis with entire swaths of worlds seceding as they seek lower taxes and more freedom to do as they please.  As a result, as a faction, they will have plenty of funding to deploy effective ships in combat.  Thus, they use standard TEC ships with few exceptions.  Being already set down in their ways, they probably would not use the Akkan, but rather a dedicated combat ship with a side-role of colonizing, or perhaps more accurately, liberating.

TEC Loyalists: After such a long war, the TEC has become a harsh militaristic society in which to live.  By this time, many capital ships have been redone (primarily just aesthetically) with more health and firepower, especially the Marza and Dunov as the TEC develops more dedicated combat frames than just the Kol.  Javelis Frigates now have the researchable ability to passively negate countermeasures (+50% accuracy).

Advent Rebels: Furious at the softness their leaders have shown towards the infedels, the Second Advent have begun a resurgence of volatility that the Advent first showed.  Their weapons are more powerful.  Their capitals more overwhelming.  Their Malice annihilates all (yes, I am talking about rebuffing it muahaha!!!   ).  Their Ruthlessness is unmatched.  Their Illusions are complete.  And their will unifies them more than the original Advent ever was.  Telekinetic abilities and weapons are amplified.  They will stop at nothing to defeat the TEC for the evil done against them a thousand years ago.  They will not forget the pain their ancestors suffered.  Sinners shall be purged.

Advent Loyalists: With the war dragging on for so long, shields have become more advanced.  As a result, Advent capitals now have the ability to resist phase missiles which is further amplified through the use of Shield Projection.  Beams become more powerful.  Armor is thicker.  But most importantly, the Advent have finally settled in for a long hard slog through diplomatic mud improving their economic standing with trade ports doing more than simply producing trade income.  They also passively increase the resources produced by that planet (including taxes) with the ability to perform Resource Focus to drastically increase these things.

Vasari Rebels: Knowing that the Darkness is just a few short years behind them and lacking a peace treaty that would allow the three races to collectively annihilate the Darkness, these aliens have begun to panic and despite the losses invested by their comrades, they fear that they mall all fall to their pursuers and have elected to evacuate once more.  These have amplified engines in every regard.  All ships can be capable of highly complex maneuvers by manipulating space around the vessels themselvs, giving them a stupendous advantage in aerial battles.  Even capital ships themselves begin being able to phase themselves out selectively to dodge attacks.  Through this, they have become nearly impossible to kill or catch.

Vasari Imperials: Still hoping for a truce that would allow the annihilation of the darkness, the Imperials have also made great strides in diplomatic affairs.  Knowing full-well that if the talks fail they will be forced to fight alone, Kostura cannons and phase missiles have become more powerful.  Orkulus starbases have become more monstrous, designed to take a beating like never before.  The Kostura's phase warping technology is also miniaturized to allow new additions to missile turrets, allowing them to damage enemy ships like never before.  This technology is also imparted on Skarovas Enforcers and any other craft with Wave Cannons, causing the armor of the target ship to phase out, leaving the vulnerable hull exposed to direct fire.  Also in preparation for the Darkness, the Vasari have improved their Ruiners which now can deploy fields of highly corrosive nanites which dissolve anything unlucky enough to pass through.

See?  Doesn't that make more sense?

Has Stardock offered you a job as a lore author yet?

Lol, not quite.    That said, I'm writing a science fiction novel and while I'm majoring in computer science with intent to minor in psychology, I have more than once considered dual-minoring in writing as well.  I just love to tell stories, that's really what it comes down to.  Hopefully when I finally finish the novel, I'll be able to publish it.  Whether or not I make money from it is irrelevant.  If it entertains others as much as I did writing it, it'll be worth while.

I write when I get bored, and I got a short story into my high school literary magazine (albeit they cut it in half, after I cut it in half myself). I thought about taking a writing course to get better, but CAD and programming were too appealing

Yeah, I once had a short story assignment.  And the plot I've come up with is good for multiple series within the same universe (I daydream a lot) just taking place at wildly different times so while the main series would take place around 3600 AD, there's another segment that would go at 3100-3200 and so forth.  I ended up taking a snippet of the one from 3100 and making that into a short story.  It would have been 30 pages, so I shortened it to 24.  Then I found out she only wanted 2-5 pages...  I ended up with 14.

Regardless, this is wildly off-topic.  Any comments on the actual content of my post rather than just the style?

Hopefully the civilian tech trees in general will also get reworked a little with the rebel civilian trees also accentuating the differences. 

The TEC rebels may still need money to build their forces so I could see them getting a tech for a credit bonus to commerce raiding and bounty hunting (a little like pirates, but not too much).  Advent rebels could have one that gives a boost to culture resistance early on so they can resist being brought back into the fold (similar to Wall of Faith so it may need to be reworked a little more to make it different).  Certain Vasari ships could get the ability to deploy the little mining drones so they could come in to a grav well and start harvesting enemy resources early on.

For generic abilities, how about the ability for scouts to have a chance to steal random, researched techs from enemy science stations?  Or for rebel factions to collect very small metal and crystal bounties for any ship and structures they destroy (like the GLA from C&C Generals), with tech levels increasing the amounts they get?

or the rebels get an actual scavenger ship...

like an ability for a corvette or frigate to latch onto an enemy ship and just start ripping it apart to get all of the crunchy metal from the outside and juicy crystal inside?

No, from the sounds of the new things put up about corvettes, they will do things more like attack the systems of ships.  I'm assuming that they'll have abilities that disrupt the use of various functions like weapons, regen, engines, etc without actually disabling them.  Just small little things to give you that extra edge.

Just an aside - it's Loyalist, not Royalist.

I don't know why everyone keeps doing that, Yarlen, because its annoying me too.