A question about the Rebel Advent

The Advent are NOT under mine control. They have a collective consciousness, not a hive mind. Each member of the Advent is an independent person, but their minds are linked by the presumably telepathic "unity". Thus its quite possible for them to disagree, and there are already an oppressed group within the Advent who have no psionic powers (untouchables if you will) that could be the basis for the rebels. Alternatively perhaps a different philosophy could emerge whose followers get branded as heretics. Thus there are quite a few possibilities for Advent rebels, as Ironclad certainly knows more about there history and society than we do.

the borg had rebels.

First of all the game manuel says that the untelepathic were rare. Secondly a collective conciesness is a hive mind. Even in the game there is an ability that ends free fill and that includes those outside of the Unity. With the Borg that rebellion happened by disconnecting them from the collective. I would love to see what those who are making the game say about this to it would shed a lot of light on this subject.

I don't think you can make a logical link between collective consciousness and mind control. The two are totally different. The Founders in Star Trek were a collective consciousness, but there was no mind control. 

The Vasari Empire wants the rebels and it wants them alive.  That much I know.

You could look at the compelling appeal of "Unity" like a drug--pretty much how the new "V'" series dealt with the same sort of thing.

Some people are more susceptible to drug addiction and others are more likely to walk away from it as an unpleasant or bad experience.  Some junkies burn out and others hit the bottom and fight back and get free.

I'd say the Advent rebels are just those who have that inner sense that, "This isn't who I am" and start holding onto that feeling and as they gain personal strength join with others who are doing the same.

In effect, they create their own mini-unity to stand against the tyranny of "the" Unity.

Something like this may have started with "cultural contamination"--with Diplomacy, we have interaction between the differnt empires.  Maybe Advent citizens started surfing social sites on the TEC 'net.

I agree with the collective concienceness =/= mind control, and here's how I see that happening: I dont believe they've really explained the level of this collective concienceness. When you see a member of the advent, is that person being controlled by everyone else in the advent race? or is it like a person with a cell phone where they constantly have a connection to everyone else and loads of data at their fingertips, but can ignore it? I think the latter. Now, for example, if the unity decides it likes the color red, that is because the majority of the race likes the color red. So, in that way, certain opinions will dominate the unity and suppress others (like the color blue, for instance), and i would imagine this would weed out individuals who disagree over a long period of time; however, in principle everyone has the option to disagree, but they dont (because of those that disagree have been weeded out).

Also, if an advent ship was in another galaxy, would they still be mentally connected to the whole of the advent race? what kind of range does this have? One of the known things about the advent is that their exile left a scar on their collective concienceness, so what if this scar developed into a break? people can have multiple personalties, why not the untity?

To the above...Tech addiction works the same way--people become dependent on "being connected" while others can take a break with no problem

I think the Unity is a true collective but with technological leverage used by a ruling class.  Rather than a Greek style democracy of all, it's more a theocratic Republic which possesses means to leverage and insert control into the consciousness whole.  I don't see it as mind-controlled zombies or 1984--though it's clear 1984 is where the rulers would like it to be.

There has never been any indication that the Unity is a form of hard mind control.  I've always viewed it more like peer pressure on steroids.  It's not like humans on a grand scale are all that hard to manipulate and control in the first place.

Yes, go into the game in the harmony section. In the final part of temple of Communion up-grades. Yes it tell's you that it mind control unless you have read about the up-grades.

Look at a typical corporate office setting and ask yourself if it looks like these people have free will.  As I already stated, there's no indication that the Unity is hard mind control any more than conventional peer pressure and group-think are forms of mind control.  Humans are just naturally inclined to buckle to societal pressures, and this is the mother of all pressures.  There is no indication anywhere in the lore that the Unity prevents individuals from consciously making the decision to disobey.

i think it would depend on the strength of the individual.  some wouldn't be able to fight it and some will.

the Borg are not sonics,  they get theirs through tech.  it is the tech that is controlled by putting the drone to sleep or a trance.

Did you read any of the more advance up-grade.  Or most of the starbase up-grades. What do you think the starbase up-grade that increase a planets loyalty do. Or enduring faith what do you think that is.  Heavens why do you think what they did was forbidden. And yes in the lore it talks about how the stronger minds give you the higher rank in the advent. I disagree with what you have said about that.

the way i see it, "mind control" per se is only used on people that haven't been properly inducted into the unity; they're crudely telepathically influenced or overpowered from afar. when they're implanted with cybernetics and given drugs, they retain their individuality to a degree and assert a distinct presence in the collective mind. per the lore, stronger telepaths have a greater presence in effect giving their voice more priority, establishing a hierarchy.

an advent rebellion would be caused by a dispute within the ruling caste that unlike before, can't be resolved peacefully. as things come to a head, a group of sufficiently powerful psintegrat would attempt to sway as many lesser followers as possible, then split to form their own collective

correct me if i'm wrong, but i got the impression that each founder was a distinct being, but it's just easier for them to communicate when "linked" - there is no greater group mind like in the case of the borg.

it was forbidden because the traders had a severe phobia of transhumanism, their exile was impulsive and unprovoked

radio towers.

No one of the up-grades to the Advent starbase telepathically force higher loyalty. I can't remember what it's called. But the radio towar up-grade is entirely diffrent from the loyalty up-grade. But even there the game describes the radio towar up-grade as using PSI equipment.  Now about the forbidden equipment I believe the genetic Engineering and psi related equipment and ability probably have some thing to do with Pre-game history war. I assume that since it's almost Universally forbidden in all the empire and nations in the Human worlds.  

 I''m sure the devs will have a proper explanation for a rebellion within the Unity.

And as you can see by the reactions of other people, it is not too hard to think of something that may cause a group within the Unity to rebel against their leaders.

Let's just wait and see what the devs came up with!

If they do have a collective consciousness, think of it more like your body opposed to a government. If one member of the unity was "Infected" by a rebellious though, it would shared with the other members of the unity in a compelling way. Although they might have free will, the way in which memories and emotion is transferred would be overwhelming for someone who had only experienced perfect "Unity" (Pun intended). Maybe the TEC or Vasari messed with the mind of a single member, causing a fracture in the unity.

Advent don't talk. There telepaths. They know , have free will but there culture, morals and religion is what drives them insane with the thirst for vengeance. You have to remember that in the story they pretty much exhausted most of there desert planet's resources and are now branching out to colonize more worlds. Politically they never thought it necessary to pull off such as act but they needed the political drive to incite war hence vengeance on the ancestors that banished them. They want to prove there power. The link between each member is a link of understanding. Its a link that is required to them to get the job done as cold and calculating as possible. That is why there see no need for powerful ships but instead have weaker ships yet united there deadly. Thats why i hate them to be honest, there so hard to play. How do u win with weaker ships? Well only the best multiplayer advent players can answer that question or iron-clad. The advents link is a backup and a weapon in itself. Telepathic powers drive there tech. Use them well with there cheaper weaker ships and u will prevail. 

Rebellious advent will still need this link to be powerful. YOu are not a rebel advent if u don't have advent charateristics: Telepathy.

May as well call yourself human if u are not a telepath. If this were the case then i suspect more advent/tec designs for the rebel advent. IN any case logic only dictates the rebel advent are opposed to there counter parts as such there thirst for revenge is driving them mad. Advent like many other races tend to have to political view: Either this war is for a good cause or war is bad for our people and its morally wrong. One faction then breaks off and forms a new order where it preaches peace, happiness and love. Some see them as heretics and fools but they see a universe where peace can only be achieved through understanding. SO the rebels are the good guys. Logic dictates the rebels free sense of being and peace will create a more powerful side of the advent because to defend there ideals they will need powerful ships along with their telepathic abilities and be fewer in numbers.

It can be said that  humans have a hive mind.  we are smarter together than by ourselves. 

and justblazz it sounds more like they want acceptance rather than vengeance.

True- 

I don't know if I would say we are smart together. There is the 'mob mentality' that has created such quotes as, "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals," which I have heard in various forms. 

More on topic, it's fiction. The creators probably had one idea or another in how tight or loose Advent society is and they named the research tabs and abilities accordingly, occasionally going a notch too far for lack of a better name or cause they just didn't think there would be ramifications, which one can argue there still aren't as the program has yet to explode into flames. So, they've come up with a new chapter to the not-story and want us to accept it so we get our paws on the toys. They'll either tweak what they have to make it all come together in this still fictitious world or they won't work terribly hard at it and we'll not care much cause there's no campaign and we still get the toys to push around and make cool sound effects with. So, I figure that we can wait for the devs.

every book i have ever read, has always had the strong  telepath.  which is why they usually have some sort of police to watch for that.

Ok first things frist.

The difference between mind control and sharing thoughts.

Mind control is controling's someone's thought's.

While there are many theories about how people could be mind controled:

Submininal messege's, hypnoses, teleptha bombardment or overwritting thoughts.

Compleetly ignoring non of these works and that mind control is impossibol.

Lets asume that the advent are mind controled for a minute.

What kind of mind control?

Is one person desiding everything?

Is a group in control?

Are they programde to think in a certian way without anyone accauly in command?

Problem after problem after problem.

Shared thoughts:

The ability to share thoughts isnt as far-fetch as mind control.

First lets for about this for a moment:

If you have bin raise in a sociaty where it is ok to eat dogs.

Then you will not see what is wrong with it because you have bin raised into believing dogs make good food.

Likewise if you are raised in a country that threats dogs as pet and not food you find the idea horrifying.

In both cases you are thought what is right and wrong by your countries standards.

This has bin called training condition school etc.

You are raised with a certain set of believe's.

Now the advent are thought from early age, how special they are, how right they are ,how there beter then others and they need to share the unity with the "unenlighted".

Condition this over a thousent years and you have a very strong COLECTIVE will to make everyone part of the unity.

Willing or otherwise.

Now the difference between a normal sociaty being brainwashed into this and the unity is that the unity share's thoughts memories emotions etc.

Now lets put this into a context we can understand:

Lets say you hear a story about a rape survivor.

Painfull right?

Now inmagine feeling the survivors pain remembering its memories and feelings its feelings.

Now you got the unity in a nutsell.

They arent mind control they are vengufull to the tec like a rape victem to its abuser.

And i dont need to tell you about the power of hate.

Especialy if you have a thousent years to prepar.

So how can the advent split?

A question opion wich i ask a other.

How can some forgive there abusers while other want them dead?

Because people are different.

The loyalist and rebels both want the tec to pay for there crime's.

But the loyalist want to do this at ANY cost where the rebels believe this path of vengeunce will destroy there beloved unity.

Haterd blinds and if not control it can destroy the wielder.

That is why the advent split.

Between those who will stop at nothing to get revenge.

And those who want to precerve the unity above revenge.

these 2 goals have split the community in half.

In the same way any religion would be split in half.

By a disagreement about how thing's shoud be.

Now to those who keep whining about havent you read about the mind control upgrade's.

I have and i explain how it works:

If you are told every second of the day for the rest of your life that red isnt a color.

How long can you resist?

A hour?

A week?

A month?

Everyone even has a breaking point.

And the advent are master's of conditioning.

Keep in mind neither rebels nor loyalist want peace they just disagree about how to kill you not if they shoud kill you.

Anyway this is the way i see it.

Malaficus shaikan.

1 year old necros

But a good one!