Tolmekian Tolmekian

Twilight: Tolmekian's TechTree Fix v3.51 Release 05-10-13

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Twilight: Tolmekian's TechTree Fix v3.51 Release 05-10-13

from GalCiv2 Forums

Purpose of the mod:

 This mod addresses widespread errors in the TotA TechTree.xml files.  These errors pretty much broke many of the unique TechTrees, causing the AI to pursue a deeply flawed research strategy and outright preventing the research of many techs.  Part of the fix included rearranging a number of the TechTrees to fix the seemingly random arrangement of some techs and reduce the number of branches for the AI to get sidetracked on.  Along the way, I ended up fixing many UP issues, planetary improvements, starbase modules, and did some general improvement and balancing on individual techs.

This mod is a direct result of MarvinKosh's Space Weapons Fix Mod, which provided the inspiration.  A lot of my development commentary and good input from other modders working on their own fixes is in that topic.  Thanks MarvinKosh, Quaternus, deweyjohn, TOV, foxthree, qrtxian and all others for input and support.

 


05-10-13: v3.51 release

Update to fix some errors in v3.5. 

  • Because I forgot to mention for the 3.5 release: The Hyperion improvements (shipyard, shrinker, logistics, resupply) are now all Galactic Achievements instead of Super Projects.  No more collecting shrinkers :o, it really matters who builds these things.
  • I would also like to add a special thanks to Gaunathor for extensive proofreading, playtesting, and feedback.  His contributions have played a big part in me continuing the work, fixing/improving even more than I originally intended, and finally putting out a (more or less) finished product after all this time.  It's fair to say that without him, this mod wouldn't be nearly what it is.  Thanks.

04-28-13: v3.5 release

 

Here it is, the more or less finished product after all this time.  It's been about a year since I put this project down, so I'm a bit fuzzy on what exactly I did before coming back to finish it up.  I'm pretty sure I've got the major things nailed down, though.  Let's see:

 

  • Fixed those minor but embarrassing typos that made it into v3.0
  • Standardized the cost vs maintenance vs output ratios for the various improvement.  Now every race can be content with their own improvements and not shop around for the obvious best.  You can now upgrade to Industrial Sectors without fretting about the inefficiencies.
    • In general, costs went down, sometimes a lot.  Maintenance costs were also reduced or eliminated on many improvements.  No more taking years upon years to develop a planet only to have the game end immediately thereafter.

 

  • Made starting techs that allow a bottom-tier improvement for many of the improvement lines.  The idea being to allow the AI access to each type of improvement and allow balanced planet development - no filling up planets before researching basic improvements.
    • eg. Races that use the "normal" economic structures (banks, stock markets, etc) now start with Market Economics, which allows construction of the Market Center.
    • If you make a custom tech tree, this allows you to select the base techs for your tree without needing conflicting "history" techs to unlock basic improvements.
  • Rounded out the Temple morale improvements, so Altarians and Drath have a progression of decent improvements unlocked by various techs, starting with Spiritual Happiness.
  • Did away entirely with farms, charging stalks, etc.  Replaced them with a universal, one-per-planet improvement that gives a bonus to pop growth and %food.
  • Did away with Advanced Extreme Colonization techs.  Now only one tech is required for each type of extreme planets.
  • Now every tech tree includes the Government techs and Planetary Defense Techs.  No good reason for some races to go without.
  • Omega Research Center: Now with more awesome.  No longer just a watered down tech capital, the Omega Research Center is a Galactic Achievement worthy of the title.
    • Speaking of watered down Tech Capital . . . I watered down the Tech Capital.  Kind of.  Bonus from 100% to 50%, but it now generates 14tp on its own.  Which leads to the next point . . .
  • All improvements that give a bonus to manufacturing or research now also generate their own mp or tp proportional to the bonus.  This is to counteract the sometimes painful misplacement of these improvements by the AI.
  • The evil races (Drengin, Korath, Yor) got a lot of attention during 3.5 development due to general lack of competitiveness.
    • Now have access to all 4 types of capitals (economic, technological, political, manufacturing) or an equivalent structure.
    • Drengin got a couple new unique techs - Superior Warships and Fleet Domination - which boost stats and unlock Galactic Achievements to speed their conquest of the galaxy.
    • Korath have a new Galactic Achievement - the Aul Incinerator.  Out with the one-per-planet suckfest and in with something that you'll actually want.
    • Don't think the Yor got any new stuff, but some stuff is easier to get and the Manufacturing Vortex and Distributed Energy Matrix got pretty big buffs.
  • Sprinkled a couple speed bonuses in the basic techs to speed things up a bit.  Basically, the AI never designs ships with engines and ends up late game with ships that move 3 or 4 per turn.  Now we're looking at 6 or 7.
  •  Uuuuuh . . . I think that's the major stuff.
  • Enjoy!

TechTree Fix v3.51 with Dumb Old Minors: I did nothing to the minor races here.  If you want the same dumb minors you've always known and loved, this is the mod for you.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with Smart Old Minors: Same old minors that still won't colonize, but I added code to make them play to the best of the  AI's ability.  I gave them respectable descriptions, modest bonuses, and changed out the silly race images to reflect their upgrade.  Since they can't colonize, they'll send out a bunch of freighters and actually send constructors to grab up a lot of the resources while the majors are still colonizing.  They still get slaughtered when it comes down to it, but I've had fun watching them.  It's also interesting to see the majors make a ton of regular starbases since there are fewer resources to grab.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with MoOII Minors: The MoOII minors in this mod will colonize and behave pretty much like weak majors.  Much larger than the other mods due to the RaceImage and RaceLogo files. If you try this mod, remember to use the "quick save fix".  That is, the minors won't start behaving like majors until you save and reload.  So, start your game, quicksave, reload, and enjoy.

TechTree Fix v3.51 with MoOII and Smart Old Minors: Why not?  If you want a little variety, I packaged up both versions of the minors in one mod.  Your minors could be one, the other, or a mix of both.  Still be sure to use the quick-save fix, or your MoOII minors won't play nice.  I haven't tested this arrangement, but I can't see why it won't work.  (famous last words.)


03-04-12: v3.0 Release

v3.0 continues the work, this time focusing on starbase modules and planetary improvements, particularly Galactic Achievements, Super Projects, and Trade Goods.  Also included is a wonderful conversation mod, kindly contributed by qrtxian.  His mod fixes the errors in the GC2_Conversations.xml, so now you can enjoy all the unique dialogue as intended.

Highlights

  • All fleet modules that were removed in v2.0 are restored.  That's the fleet attack/defense and fleet warp bubbles, etc.
  • Entire Starbase Fortification branch removed.  The attack, defense, and assist modules were spread uniformly among the appropriate weapons and defense techs.
  • Enhanced Battle Stations starbase modules and added equivalent Starbase Defenses modules.
  • No more easy pickings, expect to see some well armed starbases.
  • Addressed a limitation where the AI will only use the first 100 starbase modules in the xml file.  Rearranged, removed, and edited starbase modules to ensure the most basic and useful modules are AI accessible.
  • Evil weapons and good defenses are now available at every weapon/defense level, instead of only at the end.
  • Extensive changes to Galactic Achievements, Super Projects, and Trade Goods.  I went after them with the idea that every one should be a "must have".  Costs reduced and AI values increased to ensure the AIs actually have a chance to build them, given their inability to plan planetary improvements.
  • Edit to add - All the trade goods now have a unique icon rather than a stack of boxes.  Except the Xinathium Hull Plating.  I figured that would still come in boxes.    I chose from among the unused icons that come with the game, so they may not be perfect.  They are, in my opinion, better than the boxes.
  • Two previously unused Galactic Achievements brought into play: the Life Force Extractor and Historical Preserve.  Two new GAs introduced: the Benevolent Research Center and Trade Nexus.  All four new GAs are unlocked by ethics techs.
  • Introduced new ethics techs to split up the multiple GAs and SPs unlocked by them.  Ethics techs now also provide a small bonus, so those who don't get the GAs don't waste their research.
  • Further optimizing and balancing.  My last playtests were some of the most balanced I've ever seen.  Sure, sometimes there are runaway monsters and pitiful also-rans, but overall it's pretty good.
  • All races are still set to AIPersonality 11, or Generic.  The Altarians, Arceans, and Korx default to their unique AIP when set to 11.  You can still use AIP 8 (Thalan, Human, Drath, Krynn) and 7 (Drengin, Korath, and Yor) if you want to mix things up, but there are special considerations.  First, AIP 7 is flawed in that it won't colonize outside of its influence sphere.  In order to stand a chance, you need to use Abundant Planets, Abundant Habitables, Abundant or Common Stars, and Tight of Loose Clusters.  Then, you need to Ctrl-n until you get a galaxy where the AIP 7s have enough stars within their influence.  Other than that, AIP 7 and 8 will perform pretty well.  Their research is somewhat flawed (no Xeno Ethics, for example) and they're hyper militant, but they seem to compete well.
  • Edit to add - While trying to improve the Arceans, I tested their TechTree with regular engines instead of their unique navigation techs.  I kept the navigation techs in the standard Arcean TechTree, but also left the Arcean-Eng tree in.

I think that's most of it.  Without further ado, here it is:

TechTree Fix v3.0 with Dumb Old Minors: I did nothing to the minor races here.  If you want the same dumb minors you've always known and loved, this is the mod for you.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with Smart Old Minors: Same old minors that still won't colonize, but I added code to make them play to the best of the  AI's ability.  I gave them respectable descriptions, modest bonuses, and changed out the silly race images to reflect their upgrade.  Since they can't colonize, they'll send out a bunch of freighters and actually send constructors to grab up a lot of the resources while the majors are still colonizing.  They still get slaughtered when it comes down to it, but I've had fun watching them.  It's also interesting to see the majors make a ton of regular starbases since there are fewer resources to grab.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with MoOII Minors: The MoOII minors in this mod will colonize and behave pretty much like weak majors.  Much larger than the other mods due to the RaceImage and RaceLogo files. If you try this mod, remember to use the "quick save fix".  That is, the minors won't start behaving like majors until you save and reload.  So, start your game, quicksave, reload, and enjoy.

TechTree Fix v3.0 with MoOII and Smart Old Minors: Why not?  If you want a little variety, I packaged up both versions of the minors in one mod.  Your minors could be one, the other, or a mix of both.  Still be sure to use the quick-save fix, or your MoOII minors won't play nice.  I haven't tested this arrangement, but I can't see why it won't work.  (famous last words.)


Update 01-07-12: v2 Release

After nearly a year, here it finally is.  Details can be found in this post.

v1.1 Notes:

  • Extract the zipped folders into: C:\Program Files\Stardock Games\GalCiv2\Twilight\mods  This is the pathway for my Impule-downloaded version.  In any case, put it into the mods folder in the Twilight folder.
  • The TechTree Fix is optimized for AIPersonality 11 (Altarian, Arcean, Korx, and Generic).  AIPs 7 and 10 are pretty much broken, and AIP 8 has certain issues that require me to do another round of optimization and testing for any race that I want to set as 8.  I set all races to AIP 11 in the mod.  You can change the setting, but it will change the way the AI pursues research.
  • My detailed change log is included in the folder.  I'd include it here for everyone to see, but it's a 15 page Word file.  It lists all the changes that I made to the techs, improvements, modules and issues.  It also includes every iteration of AIValue for each tech, so you can see just how many times I had to tweak some of them.
  • Additonal Highlights:
    • Fixes broken UP Issue "Add two trade routes".  It proposed 2 trade routes, then called for a vote on 0,1,2,3, or 4.  That vote was broken and didn't work.  It's now yes/no for 2 trade routes.
    • Restores 3 Galactic Achievements by fixing Tech Requirements: The Galactic Stock Exchange, Galactic Monument, and Hyper-Distribution Center are once again available with the proper techs.
    • Fixes error in some starbase modules that caused attack bonus to be misstated in the starbase summary.
    • Fixes Temple of Neutrality, which was a cut-and-paste of Temple of Righteousness.  That means the tourism penalty affected good races.  Now it affects neutral civs and not good ones.
    • Fixes Planetary Defense improvement so it now actually gives +25% Planetary Defense.
    • Fixes a number of errors in descriptions of techs and improvements.  Unfortunately, I didn't fix the error in the Temple of Righteousness/Neutrality/Evil descriptions.  They don't affect trade income, only tourism.
    • Fixes a number of errors in the TechTree xml that prevented the entire TechTree from being displayed in the xml viewer.
    • There's a few more in there.

 

modding
1,777,262 views 722 replies
Reply #251 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting qrtxian, reply 249
How are you getting AI 7 to work? I've been specially tweaking the Korath so that they can use Spore Weapons, but I long ago wrote off the default Drengin and Yor AIs as a lost cause.

As long as AIP 7 gets a decent starting position, it can be quite good. It just needs enough planets to build up a strong enough fleet. After that, it simply conquers all the other worlds. At least in theory.

I'm testing on a medium map with abundant stars, common planets/habitable planets and occasional extreme planets, and the Arceans as opponents. After setting the Arceans back to AIP 11 and some more tweaking, they have become quite decent and are now a good reference point. The Korath are currently beating the Arceans regularly in my tests (about every second to third game), which means, they shouldn't have much trouble against most of the other races. I set Spore Weapons to ID Weapons, which let the Korath to quickly researching it. A little too fast, actually. So I set the AIValue to 8, which slowed it down a bit (second to third year, instead of mid to late first year). The biggest problem, however, was to get the Korath to research the necessary infrastructure, because they were focusing too much on weapons. Especially manufacturing and economy were extremely lacking. They often had huge and powerful ships, but couldn't build them fast enough or support the maintenance.

I'm currently considering to try to make the Drengin and Yor work on AIP 7. If I have any success, I will let you know.

Some more observations regarding the Korath:

1. While I was right regarding the "effect", I was wrong about the "cause". The Korath started researching Planetary Invasion not because I set the Category to Biological Warfare, but because it was ID Weapons and the Category was no longer set to Invasion. I finally realized that after trying to slow down the Korath' attempt to research it. Researching both Planetary Invasion and Spore Weapons early on is devastating for the AI, as it takes about a year to finish. Even setting the AIValue to 1 for PI and the following techs had no effect. I finally set the Category for PI to Military, but this also didn't slow the Korath down. If they would use Troop Transports it might actually not be that much of a problem, but they don't. While the Soldiering bonus is quite helpful in repelling invasion attempts, it is offset by the years it takes the Korath to research the techs early on. This is too detrimental in the early game. So i finally disabled PI again. For now. At least we know now, that the Korath will research anything with ID Weapons and a Category of non-Invasion (and non-Starbase, see below).

2. Category Starbase is one that the Korath will only touch if the AIValue is very high. And even then it might take awhile. I set the AIValue of Advanced Starbase Construction to 2,000 and Korath were finally researching it in year four. Even setting the ID to Weapons didn't change that. So, I finally set the Category to Military. Combined with ID Defenses, the Korath will research it, if they feel the need, even on a AIValue of 20.

3. ID Defenses will be researched if there is a need for them. Primarily ship defenses. Everything else needs to be set to Category Military, or it will take a very high AIValue for the Korath to consider it (as shown above).

4. Category Culture is another one that the Korath will only rarely touch. They will research them, but it will take a long time until they consider it. In most cases, the Korath have either won or lost the game, before they do that. Changing the Category to Pure Research helped greatly in that regard. It is really good to see the Korath building Dark Influence improvements on their planets, especially on influence bonus tiles. Well, as long as they haven't build a Malicious Bazaar, or something equally stupid, on them.

5. The Korath seem quite fond of hull techs. I'm not quite sure about this, because it seems to change from game to game. In some, the Korath have Huge Hulls before the end of year four. In others, they are still using Medium Hulls by that time, but have already researched Superior Hulls. That is with one third to one half of the regular AIValue I use for hull techs.


Quoting Tolmekian, reply 248

Which is a big part of the reason that it needs help. The idea is to make it worthwhile, even must-have, under any conditions. Given its nature, I'm thinking hefty overall population growth bonus as refugees and like minded people flock to your empire. Put that in with a planetary influence and morale bonus and I'm thinking people will actually want to build it.

Sounds good. I'm currently thinking of a way to make the Galactic Bazaar more worthwhile outside of negotiations. For the moment I added a bonus to planetary economy, but am thinking of giving it bonus to Trade, too. It is a bazaar, after all.

Reply #252 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

ok.....i got the tech tree to work.....now i get my ENTIRE tech tree as starting techs, and about 25-30 blank tech icons with no desc., icon, cost OR model.......WTF?! XO

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #253 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

My weekend was quite "interesting".

A couple weeks ago, I started an attempt to balance the weapons and defenses. Part of it was the removal of all the iterations (Laser 1,2,3..., Deflectors 1,2,3..., etc.). Each tech was progressively more expensive than the one before. This had quite a negative effect on the research performance of the AI. It was only going to tier 1 or 2 maximum. The next tier seemed too expensive. Changing the cost and AIValue of the techs also had no good effect. The AI was either rushing weapons (using Photon Torpedoes early year 3) or didn't really bother with them (still using Harpoons in year 10). Yesterday, I finally decided to consider the attempt a failure and began to undo the changes I made. Took me the better part of the day. After I was finished, I ran a test game to see if everything was back in order. The research is now completely out of whack. Looks like I have to start again. :(

This actually gave me an idea. I wanted to see how the AI performs without any "restrictions", so I set the AIValue for all techs to 0. Just for the heck of it, I did the same with the planetary improvements. The results were ... ahm ... well, I don't have the necessary words to describe it. :omg:

If you never did this yourself, I suggest you try it out.


In unrelated news: Today the Altarian/Iconian Coalition has won the first free-for-all large map game of the new season (10 races, all set to their original AI, with the exception of the Iconians and Torians, who are still on AIP 11). The Thalans made a close 2nd place, beating the Terrans by only two weeks. The Torians managed a good 4th place. The 5th place goes to the Yor, who managed to play quite excellent despite the odds. They started out in the south-east corner, boxed in by the Arceans, but managed to survive the first years and eventually conquered the Arceans. They spend the last years fighting against all other races. But, in the end, their enemies were too much for them. Still, well played, N1! An honorary mention goes to the Drengin, who were the first to go. Despite being surrounded on all sides by their enemies, the Drengin managed to survive several major assaults, before their untimely end in year 3. Well, maybe you have more luck next time, Lord Kona!


Quoting Galacticruler5000, reply 252
ok.....i got the tech tree to work.....now i get my ENTIRE tech tree as starting techs, and about 25-30 blank tech icons with no desc., icon, cost OR model.......WTF?!

Where did you put your files? If you use the subfolders of the data folder in the mod directory, it can have a detrimental effect on what you are trying to do. For example, if you put the gc2types.xml in the ShipComponents subfolder, it will be combined with the original file. Any changes you made will show up. On the other hand, if one of your changes was the removal of something from the file (like a weapon), it will still show up in the game. The only exception to this rule, as far as I know at least, is the TechTrees subfolder for the racial tech trees. Your safest bet is to use the data folder for all the other xml files.

Regarding the "starting out with all techs" part, make sure you have assigned a cost to all of the techs. Otherwise, the game marks them as already researched when you start the game. Another possibility for this is an improperly done combining of your tech tree and Tolmekian's mod. A badly placed syntax error can make an xml file (partially or completely) unreadable by the game. I know that from my own experience. A good idea would be to check the debug.err for clues. You can find it in your "My Documents\My Games\GalCiv2" folder. It will show any missing tech requirements for other techs, buildings, weapons, and so on. Do so before you start a new game, as the file gets overridden with each game start.

I hope this puts you on the right track. If you need any more help, you know where to find us. But please provide a little more information next time, okay? ;)

Reply #254 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 253
My weekend was quite "interesting".


Quoting Galacticruler5000, reply 252ok.....i got the tech tree to work.....now i get my ENTIRE tech tree as starting techs, and about 25-30 blank tech icons with no desc., icon, cost OR model.......WTF?!
Where did you put your files? If you use the subfolders of the data folder in the mod directory, it can have a detrimental effect on what you are trying to do. For example, if you put the gc2types.xml in the ShipComponents subfolder, it will be combined with the original file. Any changes you made will show up. On the other hand, if one of your changes was the removal of something from the file (like a weapon), it will still show up in the game. The only exception to this rule, as far as I know at least, is the TechTrees subfolder for the racial tech trees. Your safest bet is to use the data folder for all the other xml files.

Regarding the "starting out with all techs" part, make sure you have assigned a cost to all of the techs. Otherwise, the game marks them as already researched when you start the game. Another possibility for this is an improperly done combining of your tech tree and Tolmekian's mod. A badly placed syntax error can make an xml file (partially or completely) unreadable by the game. I know that from my own experience. A good idea would be to check the debug.err for clues. You can find it in your "My Documents\My Games\GalCiv2" folder. It will show any missing tech requirements for other techs, buildings, weapons, and so on. Do so before you start a new game, as the file gets overridden with each game start.

I hope this puts you on the right track. If you need any more help, you know where to find us. But please provide a little more information next time, okay?

Ok, but the tech problem effects EVERYONE but the minor races.

in my experince, files such as gc2ypes.xml work in the mods data directory, and not in the subfolders.

all the techs in the editor have thier normal tech costs and AI values, but dont in game.

Reply #255 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Galacticruler5000, reply 254
Ok, but the tech problem effects EVERYONE but the minor races.

Minor races are a special case, because they don't have access to every tech they have in their tech tree. But still, it is weird. Did you modify the MinorRace_TechTree.xml?

Quoting Galacticruler5000, reply 254
in my experince, files such as gc2ypes.xml work in the mods data directory, and not in the subfolders.
 
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my explanation, so let my try it again: If you put the files in the data folder, they will "overwrite" the original file. The game will read the modified files instead of the originals. If you put the files in their corresponding subfolder, all changes in them will be "added" to the original file. The game will read both files and combine them. To put it simple: subfolders are good if you want to add or change something. If you want to remove something completely use the data folder. The only exception to this, as far as I know, are the racial tech trees.

Quoting Galacticruler5000, reply 254
all the techs in the editor have their normal tech costs and AI values, but dont in game.

So something is overriding them? Okay. What tech trees are you modifying and where are they? Make sure there are no duplicates and all files are in the correct place (TechTree.xml in the data folder, racial tech trees in the TechTrees subfolder). Another thing to consider is that the racial tech trees take priority over the main tech tree. If you made changes to the TechTree.xml, they could be overridden by the racial tech trees. Check if there are any changes in them, that could prevent your modification to work.

One last thing, make sure the path to the mod directory is set correctly in-game. I know it sounds stupid, but sometimes it can be as simple as that. ;)

Reply #256 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting evilroc, reply 250
Hello, Tolmekian!

Just here to say thank you for great job and that I am very excited about upcoming 2.1 update!

Your mod gives the game a new breath, I could not believe how so many bugs were left in game after 2 addons and some patches... Keep up a good job

Thank you very much. I'm glad you found my mod and are enjoying it.  v2.1 is coming along nicely and should be ready before toooooo long.

I'm actually getting a bit excited to finally play a game myself!

Quoting qrtxian, reply 249
How are you getting AI 7 to work? I've been specially tweaking the Korath so that they can use Spore Weapons, but I long ago wrote off the default Drengin and Yor AIs as a lost cause.

Well, a large part of my work on v2.0 was getting the evil races, particularly the Yor, Drengin, and Korath, to be competitive.  I spent a lot of time focused on just that.  Looks like it paid off, because they do quite well. I mentioned earlier, but I noticed a very weird thing while working on the Korx.  They didn't seem to be "accepting" my changes to their techtree until I wiped out their raceconfig file in the My Games folder.  After I did that for all races, the evil races had a breakthrough and I even had to scale back some bonuses I gave them.

So, it may help if you routinely delete those xmls.

Reply #257 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 256
Well, a large part of my work on v2.0 was getting the evil races, particularly the Yor, Drengin, and Korath, to be competitive. I spent a lot of time focused on just that. Looks like it paid off, because they do quite well. I mentioned earlier, but I noticed a very weird thing while working on the Korx. They didn't seem to be "accepting" my changes to their techtree until I wiped out their raceconfig file in the My Games folder. After I did that for all races, the evil races had a breakthrough and I even had to scale back some bonuses I gave them.

Competitive with their stock AIs, you mean?

What settings are you using for this?

Reply #258 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting qrtxian, reply 257

Competitive with their stock AIs, you mean?

What settings are you using for this?

Sorry for lack of clarity.  For 2.0 I was still working strictly with AI 11 all around.  It was just a couple weeks ago that I decided to try all stock AIs just for funsies.  Turns out they do fine without any additional changes.  They could be further optimized, perhaps, but it's not absolutely necessary.  They do seem a bit heavy on the weapons, but that could be due to AI 8's well known tendency to drive the galactic arms race.  I'll eventually try just 11 and 7 to see how they play together.

Settings are pretty much any size galaxy, all abundant, tight or loose clusters.  I've tried having either common habitables, planets, or stars, and of the three it seems only common stars still gives a decent chance of having enough planets nearby.  Basically, you can thin out the stars a bit, but you'd better have tons of habitable planets around each star.  It also takes babysitting.  If one or more of the AI 7s gets stuck in a corner or simply in a low planet density area, it's sunk.  In an actual game, I'd probably avoid blind exploration and simply ctrl-n until I could see that the AI 7s had enough stars in their starting spheres.

Reply #259 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 258
It was just a couple weeks ago that I decided to try all stock AIs just for funsies. Turns out they do fine without any additional changes. They could be further optimized, perhaps, but it's not absolutely necessary.

That's what I realized during my test game, after setting the AIValue for all techs to zero. The AI is doing a remarkable good job on its own. It just needs occasionally a little tip. I guess the words I've been looking for yesterday were "totally unexpected" or "surprisingly good".

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 258
Settings are pretty much any size galaxy, all abundant, tight or loose clusters. I've tried having either common habitables, planets, or stars, and of the three it seems only common stars still gives a decent chance of having enough planets nearby. Basically, you can thin out the stars a bit, but you'd better have tons of habitable planets around each star. It also takes babysitting. If one or more of the AI 7s gets stuck in a corner or simply in a low planet density area, it's sunk. In an actual game, I'd probably avoid blind exploration and simply ctrl-n until I could see that the AI 7s had enough stars in their starting spheres.

That's how I do it in all of my games, no matter what AI my enemies are using. Giving everyone are fair chance, so to speak.

Reply #260 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 259

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 258It was just a couple weeks ago that I decided to try all stock AIs just for funsies. Turns out they do fine without any additional changes. They could be further optimized, perhaps, but it's not absolutely necessary.
That's what I realized during my test game, after setting the AIValue for all techs to zero. The AI is doing a remarkable good job on its own. It just needs occasionally a little tip. I guess the words I've been looking for yesterday were "totally unexpected" or "surprisingly good".

It never occurred to me to simply zero everything and let the AI do what it will without influencing it.  A little surprising given my nature, but I guess the scope and complexity of the task coupled with my inexperience when I started just led me a different way.  I'm almost a little sad now.

I wonder how cheaply the AI would sell techs off at AIValue 0.  I've gotten feedback that you may as well forget tech trading with the high AIValues I've used in my mod.

Ah, now you've done it.  I guess I'll either start from scratch and redo the balancing or throw up my hands and walk away.  Now v2.1 will never be released.

Or maybe I'll just finish up v2.1 and then worry about it.

Reply #261 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 260
It never occurred to me to simply zero everything and let the AI do what it will without influencing it. A little surprising given my nature, but I guess the scope and complexity of the task coupled with my inexperience when I started just led me a different way. I'm almost a little sad now.

Me neither. But, as I had to restart my balancing anyhow, I thought "why not give it a try"? It certainly was interesting to see how the AI behaves naturally.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 260
I wonder how cheaply the AI would sell techs off at AIValue 0. I've gotten feedback that you may as well forget tech trading with the high AIValues I've used in my mod.

Well, I didn't keep it on 0. That was just to get a general impression. Since then I raised it to 10 and started balancing from there. Maybe I will try to found that out later. Too high AIValues (>25) definitely prevent tech trading. The AI wants everything you got for just one tech. And sometimes even that is not enough.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 260
Ah, now you've done it. I guess I'll either start from scratch and redo the balancing or throw up my hands and walk away. Now v2.1 will never be released.

Or maybe I'll just finish up v2.1 and then worry about it.

Well, as today is the "worst day of the year" for me (or "birthday", as other people call it), I might as well use it to ruin someone else's day, too. ;)

At least I know how your feeling. Finding out that everything you did is for naught and the only option is giving up or start again. I had that happen at least two dozen times with my mod alone, and I don't even want to count how many times it happened in my "real life". :(

In your case, finishing v2.1 first and then re-balancing from scratch, might be the best option. Though you should consider calling it v2.2 or v2.3 based on the amount of new work you already did. :thumbsup:


(About 3.5 hours until this day is finally over.)

Reply #262 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

There's still no way to save AI 10, though?

Reply #263 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting qrtxian, reply 262
There's still no way to save AI 10, though?

Nothing's ever good enough for you, huh? :P

Now that I'm fiddling with planetary improvements, I had a random thought about whether improvement AI values could save them.  It's a long, doubtful shot, but I may set all the improvement AIs to 100 or 1000 just to see.

Or I may just do it with the Torian improvements.  Not gonna change all those values on a lark. In either case, it's more post-2.1 work.

Reply #264 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 263
Now that I'm fiddling with planetary improvements, I had a random thought about whether improvement AI values could save them.  It's a long, doubtful shot, but I may set all the improvement AIs to 100 or 1000 just to see.

You can save your time, I already tried that. Doesn't work. :(  

Reply #265 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I actually have mixed feelings on that - back before I did any modding, Torians on AI 10 colonize like ET-esque rabbits. Were it not for the bug crippling them, they might have been overpowered (although it's possible that the other guys would have had a better chance with fixed tech trees).

And I really like the Iconians on 11, particularly since I optimized them for research and it's the AI that most often goes for research victories. So all in all, it could be worse.

Reply #266 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 261

Well, as today is the "worst day of the year" for me (or "birthday", as other people call it), I might as well use it to ruin someone else's day, too.

Happy B-day for yesterday!

 

(I was going to post a screen shot of a ship I designed in celebration of the joyous occasion, but I can't find find it, so you'll have to go without.  Maybe next year.)

Reply #267 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Hi Tolmekian,

I just wanted to tell you I'm a new GalCiv 2 player and checking this thread every day for news on your improved AI mod. I understand you might have been discouraged by the recent findings on AIValue but I'm sure 2.1 will be worth it.

Thanks again for your work !

Reply #268 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Wetballs, reply 266
Happy B-day for yesterday!

Thanks, I guess. :S

"Birthday" is for me not a "joyous occasion" at all, but a reminder of how much my life sucks. Having a chronic depression is the least of my problems. :(

Reply #269 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting LapinDuracell, reply 267
Hi Tolmekian,

I just wanted to tell you I'm a new GalCiv 2 player and checking this thread every day for news on your improved AI mod. I understand you might have been discouraged by the recent findings on AIValue but I'm sure 2.1 will be worth it.

Thanks again for your work !

Thank you.  I was actually being a bit facetious about throwing up my arms and walking away.  I'm happy with what I've done, for the most part.  The difficulty of tech trading is a down side, but maybe I'll be able to tackle that next time around.

 

And for everyone else, a little teaser.  I'm pretty well done with the Galactic Achievements, Super Projects, and Trade Goods.  Just about everything should be quite desirable  at this point.  Even the much maligned Galactic Guide Book has been elevated to a hot commodity, more or less literally.  Hint.  I reduced the cost of almost all of them to help the AI actually have a chance of building one before the player swoops in and snags it.  It's much more about being first to research the techs rather than building up factory planets just to have a chance of finishing a project.

I've put in the evil weapon and good defense techs, now I just need to do the ship components.  After that it's a playtest or two and we may just be ready to roll.

Reply #270 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 269
I was actually being a bit facetious about throwing up my arms and walking away.

Glad to hear that. You had me worried there for a moment.

Who am I kidding? I'm always worried.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 269
Even the much maligned Galactic Guide Book has been elevated to a hot commodity, more or less literally.

I changed it into a Trade Good and gave it a 15% bonus to influence. Curious to know what you did with it. 

Reply #271 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 270

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 269I was actually being a bit facetious about throwing up my arms and walking away.
Glad to hear that. You had me worried there for a moment.

Who am I kidding? I'm always worried.

Always look at the bright side of life. :)

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 269Even the much maligned Galactic Guide Book has been elevated to a hot commodity, more or less literally.
I changed it into a Trade Good and gave it a 15% bonus to influence. Curious to know what you did with it. 

I too made it a trade good.  I guess the free Survey Module thing is hard coded, but I added a +1 speed bonus.  The description is something like: Detailed sensor data allows our ships to plot the most efficient courses, increasing speed by 1 pc/week.  It makes sense as a trade good, leaving it up to the owner whether or not to share that data with others.

While doing this, I found out that the ShipMoveBonus, as found with the Gravity Accelerators, doesn't seem to work. The modding guide says it should provide a bonus to ships built on that planet, but the Gravity Accelerators provide an overall bonus.  When I tried using it for the Galactic Guide Book, it didn't work in either regard.  I ended up giving the GGB a 10% speed bonus using the AbilityType/AbilityAmount tags.  I haven't tried removing the ShipMoveBonus from the Accelerators, but I'm guessing the bonus is hard coded.  Not that I would remove it, since it allows the bonus to show up in the tech tree and planet improvement screens.

I guess I should just say it now so as to get all the protests ahead of time: I also changed the Eyes of the Universe to a trade good and reduced the bonus to +5.  Still quite good by any standard, but just a bit less super powered.

Reply #272 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Tolmekian for President!  Change I can believe in!

;)

ShipMoveBonus is in Hyperion Shipyard, Navigation Center, Advanced Navigation Center, and Innovation Complex.  It provides +speed on that planet.

ShipSpeedBonus is in Gravity Accelerators and provides +speed civ-wide.

At least, according to the tags.  I hadn't thought to try removing those tags to see what's hardcoded, though.

Reply #273 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 271
Always look at the bright side of life.

Every time I tried that, life decided to screw me over. :(

Pink Floyd's The Wall is a pretty good description of my life, but lets stay on topic now, shall we?

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 271
I too made it a trade good. I guess the free Survey Module thing is hard coded, but I added a +1 speed bonus.

This is regulated by the AltCost and AltCostPrereq fields in GC2Types.xml. AltCostPrereq works only for GAs and TGs, and needs to be set accordingly. As far as I know, you can use this for other ship modules, too, but I haven't tried it yet.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 271
While doing this, I found out that the ShipMoveBonus, as found with the Gravity Accelerators, doesn't seem to work. The modding guide says it should provide a bonus to ships built on that planet, but the Gravity Accelerators provide an overall bonus. When I tried using it for the Galactic Guide Book, it didn't work in either regard.

Like Sole Soul said, Gravity Accelerators use ShipSpeedBonus that is civ-wide. The bonus seems to be hard coded to work only for the Accelerators, but you can change the value. ShipMoveBonus, like on the Navigation Center, is on a per planet basis and can be used with all buildings.

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 271
I guess I should just say it now so as to get all the protests ahead of time: I also changed the Eyes of the Universe to a trade good and reduced the bonus to +5. Still quite good by any standard, but just a bit less super powered.

I also halved the bonus, but kept it as a GA. This certainly makes sensors more viable and helps with the frame rate on large maps with lots of ships.

Quoting Sole, reply 272
Tolmekian for President! Change I can believe in!

Agreed! :thumbsup:

But in my country he would need to go for Federal Chancellor.

Reply #274 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Tolmekian, reply 271

I too made it a trade good.  I guess the free Survey Module thing is hard coded, but I added a +1 speed bonus.  The description is something like: Detailed sensor data allows our ships to plot the most efficient courses, increasing speed by 1 pc/week.  It makes sense as a trade good, leaving it up to the owner whether or not to share that data with others.

I guess I should just say it now so as to get all the protests ahead of time: I also changed the Eyes of the Universe to a trade good and reduced the bonus to +5.  Still quite good by any standard, but just a bit less super powered.

 

I'm curious to know if you changed the names of these, as neither "Galactic Guide Book" nor "Eyes of the Universe" really sound like goods one might trade to a space alien.  Not like "Nano Recorders" or "Frictionless Clothing" anyway.  But good changes!  (Though personally, I'll probably knock the sensor bonus for EotU down to +3 for my games.  Sensors III take up 4 spaces each on a medium hull, so EotU would be like giving each ship +12 spaces for free)

Actually I just now noticed that there is no "Sensors IV" module, even though there's a Sensor's IV tech.  Has it always been this way, and I just never noticed it?  I just usually build Sensor Array's anyway - maybe that's why I never noticed.

Reply #275 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Whoops, my bad on the ShipSpeed/Move.  Thanks for the correction. I was looking right at the modding guide and everything, noting the difference.  I try to be precise when discussing this stuff so as to prevent the spread of misinformation. Boo.

 

As for the sensor bonus, I guess I never thought much about sensor balance.  I think I'll leave it as is for now, names and all.  You may not like trading off the Galactic Guide Book, but if you want that freighter full of Orion slave girls then you'd better pay up. ;)