rebelito

And you decide to hire the guy that ruined the 20-year old Civilization franchise???

And you decide to hire the guy that ruined the 20-year old Civilization franchise???

Dear FrogBoy,

I have owned most of your titles since GalCiv1. I enjoyed your creations thoroughly. Now, I was about to buy Elemental after reading how much better it became with patch 1.1. I wanted to buy Elemental because the lead designer of Civilization 5 ruined my civ experience after 20 years of loyal support.

Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches. I know of many that were thinking along the same lines, and were about to put money into Elemental to run away from the monster that this "lead designer" created and that is not true to the succesful principles that made Civilization the best franchise ever.

With this move, I think you lost a huge amount of potential sales that were about to happen, Brad. I'm sorry. Good luck, you will need it now.

 

Regards,

790,268 views 217 replies
Reply #51 Top

Elemental is a lot of fun at v1.1 as the result of a lot of good work by a number of people.  

I expect Elemental to get better as the result of the work of that same group of people.   There is no way that I can tell for sure if the addition of one specific person will change that trend and make this a bad game or if the current improvement trend will continue. 

What I will do is wait and see what happens and make any judgements based on the real outcome.  If the game continues to get better I will continue to play the game and recommend it to others.  If the game gets bad I will do the opposite. 

Pre-judging the outcome either positively or negatively based on indirect data is not consistent with my desire to judge games based on how much I enjoy them when I play them.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting Gene1966, reply 49
So to the heart of the OP's beef...What's the dealio with Jon Shafer and Civ5?  Why did Jon leave Civ5 series for Elemental?  Was Jon not happy over there?  I am quiting my job of 16 years simply because I no longer enjoy it.  I no longer believe my management.  Actions speak louder than words, it does not take a rocket scientist to match actions to words and they do or they don't draw your conclusions. 

I think the real deal is the reason Jon left and to the OP that just might be not for public consumption.  But hey now, I'm curious!  Any Drama involved? 

 

NDAs probably prevent us from receiving any inside information or tales of drama unfortunately :(

 

We need the media to refocus attention away from Hollywood and towards gaming to get some crazy theorycrafting going...

Reply #53 Top

Quick Brad, give Rebelito a cake to apology. But... well, that's not my problem. Well, Jon is a good edition to Stardock. So welcome to forum, son, if you haven't do it.

Reply #54 Top

You would have to be pretty narrow minded to beleive that this guy is solely responsible for Civ 5s short comings, he did a great job with Civ 4, which is why I play it still after not having the stomach to even get to the modern age in Civ 5, it bored me to tears.

Saying civ 4 is better because of the expansion packs is true to an extent, though the new idea's they came up with during the extended design time could have been easily introduced into Civ 5, yet they were not, it seems they created a generic game which they will over time milk the consumers with DLC until one day, after paying 3x what you did in the first place, have the game we wanted.

I think this move should be seen as Stardocks dedication to improving Elemental, weather you like Elemental or not, you cannot fault the companies desire to make Elemental a great game.

Reply #55 Top

 

 

........

 

NONE of this drivel changes or addresses Fistalis's point that he bought Elemental to get away from Jon and his decisions (rightly or wrongly attributed to him).

I'm not saying that he won't do a great job on elemental. I'm saying that in my opinion he ruined the lastest installment of my favorite franchise and i'm still pissed about it. I bought elemental to get away from the sort of design decisions he made only for him to be  hired on to the game i bought to support a different design style. Its maddening I tell you. A lesson in the absurd.

And to be honest. Had this been announced prior to my purchase of elemental I wouldn't have bought it. Simply because the state of Civ V is what lead me to buy elemental.  I woulda just said F it i'll wait for a new paradox game.

Which is basically my point.. (or was before i got derailed in thought) the ill will (deserved or not) that people feel toward shafer for Civ V is now going to be felt by elemental. As the OP has demonstrated.

Some of you mindless idiots need to at least acknowledge that it must seem INSANE (word used correctly this time) for Fistalis to leave Civ5 due to Jon's design decisions only to find that very man now "helping" his newly aquired purchase along......GEEEZ some of you people are obtuse!

....sigh

 

Reply #56 Top

I hate Civilization 5 as do my friends that I play Civ IV BTS with. This hatred has sent me on a search for a replacement. Civ was always the default game that I'd turn to when I was bored. I do blame everything on Jon Shafer, because that's the only name that I know. I couldn't help but notice the CEO post here and even throw a jab at another. I really like that this is my kind of place. I'll buy this game next paycheck.

 

p.s. Please make Jon Shafer post here and converse with others. I know a ton of people that would buy your game for this opportunity!

Reply #57 Top

Nice welcoming party for Jon.  LOL.   ^_^

I find it hard to believe anybody had a personal dislike for Jon or even that many people here knew who he was.  I think people just see the words "Lead Designer - Civ V" and put two and two together.  I know I do.   But then...everybody starts saying the Lead Designer of Civ V had nothing to do with Civ V being bad???   Insult my intelligence all you want, you're not going to get me to buy that one.

Reply #58 Top

Before everyone crucifies Jon and Brad for hiring him, let's see what kind of work they produce.  Remember, Jon also helped to create Beyond the Sword for Civ IV...

Reply #59 Top

The dude is a gold mine. You could put him on a website and have a midget throw pies at his face for $5 dollars a pop. Retire after that.

Reply #60 Top

Good call on both Stern & Shafer, this superbly timed out business move may very well prove to be pivotal for future SD endeavors.

Now, we'll also probably get the GC3 sooner and in some deserved innovative terms.

Reply #61 Top

Chill Pill

 

Some people in this thread need one of these badly, methinks ;)

Reply #62 Top

When Civ5 goes pimpmode in 2014ish with the second expansion, people will recognize just how incredibly important it was to focus on the core systems and ignore the rest of it. 1upt? hexes? City states? Culture tree? Mostly clean interface? Art deco style? Except for the city states, none of that could have gone into the game post-release without a huge amount of time and effort. And even they could only have come about in an expack entirely dedicated to them.

 

The rest of the stuff needed the feedback of millions of users to improve. Brain dead AI? Not enough testing -- and you'll never get enough testing to compare to real users going at your game. Imperfectly tuned systems? Duh. Again, something only mass users are going to notice.

Heck, even modders know that there's a huge difference between a system that sounds good on paper and played the way you expect it to be played, and a system played by people looking to exploit any and every loophole for an easy win. My relatively simple Mount and Blade mod needed a ton of testing to get the basic balance right. 

 

The design decisions are the critical element. Everything else, like Elemental, is a cake that needs some more baking. If you can't recognize that, well, you haven't been around long enough. 

 

I'ma conclude with one word, just one word: Arcanum.

Reply #63 Top

Heck, even modders know that there's a huge difference between a system that sounds good on paper and played the way you expect it to be played, and a system played by people looking to exploit any and every loophole for an easy win.

Amen Brotha (or Sista)! A very important point that not many people recognize.

Reply #64 Top

There isn't any proof that Jon is the person who ruined the Civ5. More likely some bad decisions and communication between the team and execs made Civ5 half-baked game.

 

Please, chill already (the pic above is great), this is Elemental forum and we do not need another "Jon ruined my game", "Civ5 is terrible" threads. There are plenty in CFC and you can make new ones there.

 

Please let him work... You can always judge yourself AFTER taste what he (more precisely, stardock with him) delivers.

Reply #65 Top

Confucius say that man who leap off cliff jump to conclusion.

All kidding aside anything is possible given enough time and money. I bought Elemental in September, had my wtf moments with CTD's and lame AI, came to the forums, microwaved a bag of popcorn while I read the drama, digested SD's plan, watched the execution of said plan, and am now playing my little teenie tiny part of the community feedback loop. SD is investing the money and proving it with these hires; they just need the time. As a customer I'm willing to grant that. We all have the same goals and objectives - a kick ass game replayable for years to come.

Anyway, I'm gonna go back to playing Elemental with the iTunes shuffle of Iron Maiden and Rush. I get all excited when Alexander the Great or The Necromancer pops on. It helps with the roleplay.

Reply #66 Top

At least they didn't hire Ryan Dancey.  That guy keeps moving upward in the gaming industry killing every game he's involved with.

Reply #67 Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 50

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 38Brad doesn't need to call fans insane, frankly thats unwise and I'm surprised he did as much. Truth is self evident and we have anonymous posters like us for that.While this is true, I personally would rather see developers on the forum and talking in an entirely uncensored fashion. This may mean that people, including the CEO, are not always a perfect model of restraint and tact, but that's how normal communication goes. People can get a bit dickish at times. And this was really not bad at all; from anyone else it wouldn't have prompted comment.

 

Fair enough, I can see the value in that. But that isn't the world we live in right now, and its not considered standard practice, like it or not we hold CEO's to a higher standard. Also if I called someone insane (and their post was reasonable) I'm sure it would draw comment (rightly so).

 

On the other other hand if you will... you don't get change by not reacting to the status quo. So I'll consider Brad a pioneer in bringing down artificial standards (and thus giving more freedom for conversation) for CEOs and agree with you. :)

Reply #68 Top

elemental(or any complex game for that matter) is hardly a one person show.  it takes a whole team of people to make a game good or make a game crap.  put a little faith in stardock and believe that they will do right by us.  things have been a little rocky over the last year but i believe that in the end all will be well.

Reply #69 Top

Someday I might play Civ 5 and get what the hell you guys are all ranting about.

I might not too.  Games based on history never interested me, be they fact or fiction.

But since I'm here and talk too much, I will say I'm very glad to see more top tier talent on Elemental, especially as expansions and sequels will undoubtedly benefit in a big way.

I'm not into mods much.  By the time they're polished, I've usually moved onto other games.  So if the expansions and sequels are that much better, I'm that much happier. :)

Glad you guys are doing everything you can to make a better game.  I haven't been disappointed at all since the 1.1 beta builds started coming.

Peace out from the resident looney,

Savyg

Reply #70 Top


Dear FrogBoy,

I have owned most of your titles since GalCiv1. I enjoyed your creations thoroughly. Now, I was about to buy Elemental after reading how much better it became with patch 1.1. I wanted to buy Elemental because the lead designer of Civilization 5 ruined my civ experience after 20 years of loyal support.

Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches. I know of many that were thinking along the same lines, and were about to put money into Elemental to run away from the monster that this "lead designer" created and that is not true to the succesful principles that made Civilization the best franchise ever.

With this move, I think you lost a huge amount of potential sales that were about to happen, Brad. I'm sorry. Good luck, you will need it now.

 

Regards,

Won't miss you.

Reply #71 Top

Yep, so far Brad's decision in salvaging Elemental with his choice of people are good in my book. Just look at V 1.1

It's  waaaay better than release date version. I'll reserve my judgment on the next expansion to see if hiring Jon was a wise idea or not.

 

To those who hate him, why not give Jon a second chance? It's not like he caused the death of your family because of Civilization 5. Even then, I still enjoy the game!

There are other worse game sequel that destroyed the franchise you know? *Empire Earth 3, Command and Conquer 4*

Reply #72 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
Don't be insane.

Do you have any idea how much of the design process as well as scheduling is altered when you're dealing with a publicly traded company? 

Seriously. If you don't like Civ V, think carefully about what it is you don't like about it.  Seriously.  

Moreover, as some have already observed, Kael is the one taking over design on Elemental from me. We desperately need someone who has AAA experience in extending game engines.

Don't let the din of the Internet fool you. The outstanding qualities of a given person are not what they often seem to be.  You guys who love Kael so much don't realize that what makes him a magical super being is that he's an enterprise level project manager.  Similarly, what makes Jon so amazing is his ability to extend what is there in new and interesting ways. These are crucial, important and most crucially, rare talents in our industry.

If you don't like Civ V, don't blame Jon. Don't blame Firaxis either.  The truth behind games is a lot more complex than it seems on the surface. 

As someone whose job for the past 2+ years has been to be a human punching bag for other people's decisions, I can tell you that the Internet "narrative" is almost never right.

So what you are trying to sell us is that Sid Meier, Firaxis, and Jon Shafer have no responsibilty whatsoever for the mess that is Civ 5.  I guess it was all 2K! Or should we blame Steam? 

Reply #73 Top

Quoting WalkerK19, reply 71


There are other worse game sequel that destroyed the franchise you know? *Empire Earth 3, Command and Conquer

 

A bit off topic from the epic whining. I believe you mean genre not franchise and I believe you are also confusing turn based strategy with real time strategy as both of your examples are RTS while Elemental is turn based more comparable to a game like Civilization which the complaining is about.

 

Reply #74 Top

I for one am very excited about Shafer joining. I can't believe some of the arrogance and tunnel vision some people who claim to be old and mature show. 

Reply #75 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 4
Don't be insane.

Do you have any idea how much of the design process as well as scheduling is altered when you're dealing with a publicly traded company? 

Seriously. If you don't like Civ V, think carefully about what it is you don't like about it.  Seriously.  

Moreover, as some have already observed, Kael is the one taking over design on Elemental from me. We desperately need someone who has AAA experience in extending game engines.

Don't let the din of the Internet fool you. The outstanding qualities of a given person are not what they often seem to be.  You guys who love Kael so much don't realize that what makes him a magical super being is that he's an enterprise level project manager.  Similarly, what makes Jon so amazing is his ability to extend what is there in new and interesting ways. These are crucial, important and most crucially, rare talents in our industry.

If you don't like Civ V, don't blame Jon. Don't blame Firaxis either.  The truth behind games is a lot more complex than it seems on the surface. 

As someone whose job for the past 2+ years has been to be a human punching bag for other people's decisions, I can tell you that the Internet "narrative" is almost never right.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 17

Yes. That is the public version of the explanation and the broadly correct description. I'm the CEO. All failures are on my doorstep.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 20
At the end of the day, my job is to make sure we produce incredibly good games.

We don't make decisions based on Internet politics.  Good games sell. Jon is a key ingredient in our ongoing strategy.  Without Jon, there's no realistic way we can take our game engine and make it extensible via Python and such.  I would challenge any Internet person to name someone more qualified to make a game extensible than Jon Shafer. Anyone. 

 

Frogboy, I'd just like to say... For every person who is driven away by your hiring of Jon, there is another who looks at your handling of the (admittedly horrible) launch of Elemental and the effort made since, and purchase it.

Between your statements above, your hiring of Kael (a man I have the utmost respect for; Hell, I'm still working on one of the big two Fall from Heaven modmods) and Jon, I will be purchasing Elemental. And I am sure it will be worth it; If not immediately, then after a few patches. Games take time to perfect.

 

But then, I may be biased. It certainly helps to have some idea of how game development actually works, before going off like the OP did; Hell, I hope to one day soon be doing exactly what you people are doing here. Just need to finish the degree. ;)

 

Quoting the_Monk, reply 55
 

 

........

 

NONE of this drivel changes or addresses Fistalis's point that he bought Elemental to get away from Jon and his decisions (rightly or wrongly attributed to him).



I'm not saying that he won't do a great job on elemental. I'm saying that in my opinion he ruined the lastest installment of my favorite franchise and i'm still pissed about it. I bought elemental to get away from the sort of design decisions he made only for him to be  hired on to the game i bought to support a different design style. Its maddening I tell you. A lesson in the absurd.

And to be honest. Had this been announced prior to my purchase of elemental I wouldn't have bought it. Simply because the state of Civ V is what lead me to buy elemental.  I woulda just said F it i'll wait for a new paradox game.

Which is basically my point.. (or was before i got derailed in thought) the ill will (deserved or not) that people feel toward shafer for Civ V is now going to be felt by elemental. As the OP has demonstrated.



Some of you mindless idiots need to at least acknowledge that it must seem INSANE (word used correctly this time) for Fistalis to leave Civ5 due to Jon's design decisions only to find that very man now "helping" his newly aquired purchase along......GEEEZ some of you people are obtuse!

....sigh

 

 

Yes. Because issues with a game are always a result of poor design choices. No no, of course it can't be poor or rushed implementation, commands from higher up the food chain, or anything of that nature... :|

 

Quoting Aeon221, reply 62
When Civ5 goes pimpmode in 2014ish with the second expansion, people will recognize just how incredibly important it was to focus on the core systems and ignore the rest of it. 1upt? hexes? City states? Culture tree? Mostly clean interface? Art deco style? Except for the city states, none of that could have gone into the game post-release without a huge amount of time and effort. And even they could only have come about in an expack entirely dedicated to them.

 

The rest of the stuff needed the feedback of millions of users to improve. Brain dead AI? Not enough testing -- and you'll never get enough testing to compare to real users going at your game. Imperfectly tuned systems? Duh. Again, something only mass users are going to notice.

Heck, even modders know that there's a huge difference between a system that sounds good on paper and played the way you expect it to be played, and a system played by people looking to exploit any and every loophole for an easy win. My relatively simple Mount and Blade mod needed a ton of testing to get the basic balance right. 

 

The design decisions are the critical element. Everything else, like Elemental, is a cake that needs some more baking. If you can't recognize that, well, you haven't been around long enough. 

 

I'ma conclude with one word, just one word: Arcanum.

 

Very well said.

 

And the whole discussion about the desirability of a good modding architecture... Mods keep games alive. Mods are a source of free content to the community, increased sales for the developer, increased lifespan for the game. Writing off mods as unnecessary is simply ridiculous... Particularly when mods have the capability to save poor games and make them worthwhile.


Your opinion there shouldn't matter if you personally can mod or not, either; Simply because you can't, doesn't mean that others cannot make compelling mods of their own. More than likely mods that you would have fun playing. ;)