DerekPaxton DerekPaxton

The coming 1.1 patch

The coming 1.1 patch

  We have been hard at work on the 1.1 patch.  Today we built an internal alpha which went to our testers and they began reporting issues, bugs, etc.  Our feature list isn't completely implemented yet, there are still a few things to checkin but I expect that they will be all in by Monday.  The team has been told to focus on bug fixes and polish between now and next Thursday (11/18/2010) which we are targeting as the date for the release of the public 1.1 beta.
  What is coming?
  Toby already posted about the two major changes coming in 1.1.  Global Mana and Population as a resource (in that improvements consume population).  Global mana is a significant change to the magic side of the game, and all the spells have been adjusted to account for it.  Population to improvements is a significant change to the economic side of the game, forcing players to balance their population between economic, production and military goals.
  There are a lot of UI improvements, one of my favorites is the city idle popup.  You now get warned when a city has nothing let in its queue, and you have the opportunity to jump right to it.
  But 1.1 also includes a rebalancing of all the stats, combat, equipment and creatures.  The goal here is to visit all the core stats, baseline them and make sure the numbers are reasonable.  Toby has been working on it and I don't envy him, its a herculian task and it won't be perfect right out of the gate but it will be a step in the right direction and we will be looking for opportunities to make it even better.
  One detail part of the rebalance is that we had to review what all the stats did.  This is was they do in the current version of Elemental:
Strength- Every point of strength over 10 gives +10% to damage.
Dexterity- Every point of dexterity over 10 gives +10% to your armors absorption (aka:defense).
Constitution- Constitution is added to your max hit points.
Intellect- Intelligence is used by various spells to adjust damage/effects.
Wisdom- Wisdom was kind of a non-used stat but in some places Essence was referred to as wisdom, Essence increased your max MP.
Charisma- Charisma is used to reduce the cost of recruiting NPC's (champions).  Charisma didn't do anything for champions.
  In 1.1 they have been changed to the following:
Strength- Modifies damage
Dexterity- Modifies dodge
Constitution- Modifies hit points
Intelligence- Modifies spell resistance, boosts some spells, required for Champions to cast some spells
Charisma- Sovereigns Charisma modifies Champion recruit costs.  Champions and the Sovereign give a prestige boost to the city they are in.
  That leaves us with the following formulas:
Attack (which is damage) = Weapon Attack + ((Strength - 10)/2)
Defense (which is damage absorb) = Armor Defense
Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Spell Resistance = Intelligence / 2
Prestige Boost in City = Charisma / 5
  Elemental uses opposing roles for combat.  So if I have 23 Accuracy (I'm 4th level) and you have 5 Dodge (you have a Dexterity of 10) then we both roll from 1 to our rating and the highest roll wins.  I get a random number from 1-23 and you get a random number from 1-5, meaning there is about a 87% chance I will hit you.  The numbers are strongly weighted in the attackers favor as we didn't want to have long strings of misses going back and forth. (in fact as I look at it now I think it may now be weighted enough, we may need to change accuracy to level * 3)
  The nice thing about this system is that it never becomes impossible to hit or damage anyone.  It may become unlikely, but its never a waste of your time, and no creature is ever not a threat.
  Strength modifies damage as it did before but its no longer such a huge impact.  We were having problems balancing weapons because a 15 attack weapon on a 40 strength guy is 45 attack.  Now that would be a 30 attack, still huge but workable.
  Dexterity used to add to your damage absorption.  Which is fairly non-intuitive for Dexterity and kept us from designing more specialized creatures.  We want some creatures to be easy to hit and hard to damage, and others to be hard to hit but easy to damage, to makes them more or less difficult against different parties and attackers.  It gives us design room to grow into.
  Constitution now modifies hit points per level.  But the most important part is that hit points are now modified per level!  As your sovereign and champions levels up they will gain hit points, no more glass cannons.  We have played with a few numbers to get a progression that values level and the players constitution reasonably, but all the above formula's might be tweaked based on playtest feedback.
  Wisdom is gone now.  There are now 5 base stats (as there are 5 factions on each side, 5 tech tree branches, etc) and Intelligence is the "magic" stat.  We have to balance this stat a bit differently than most games because every sovereign is a caster but we don't want to make it isn't worth putting points in other stats.  We also use it as a limiter for what spells champions can cast, but your sovereign's don't have the restriction.
  Charisma is our non-combat stat.  We really wanted to allow players to build sovereigns that were never planned for combat.  They stay at home.  Charisma is a great stat for that.  The city your sovereign is in will get increased prestige, you can recruit cheaper champions (and let them fight your wars for you) and if you recruit high charisma champions you can use those in your cities to push prestige even higher.
  So why do we focus on stat adjustments?  It certainly isn't the sexiest part of the game, and many players will play without even noticing they changed.  From a code perspective removing a stat is harder than adding a stat (since you have to get everything that references it) so it's a lot of work without much direct payoff.
  The reason is that it's where you have to begin to balance anything after.  In order to balance the armor we have to know what the stats effect on armor is (formerly +10% per point of dex over 10, now no effect on armor).  In order to balance weapons we have to know strengths exact effect, previously we couldn't create high attack weapons because strength had such a huge impact that it was exponential.  Making strength more linear allows us to make weapons more varied.  Now that we have accuracy and dodge in we can create big weapons with high damage but penalties to hit, or small weapons with bonuses to hit or speed, but low damage.  We have more range to work with.
772,862 views 259 replies
Reply #201 Top

So is casting time for spells confirmed in 1.1? If yes, then any idea what is going to pass for the MOM equivalent of 'casting skill?'

No, nobody's said anything official about it. I'm just pushing for it.


I am in the camp that supports casting times as well. I think this one game mechanic would do a lot to balance magic in combat. Hell, even Arcane Doom on a Vigiliant Minion would not have been so OP if there was a 2 or 3 turn cast time associated with it.

Reply #202 Top

Quoting nikmesh, reply 175

 
Idea's that come to mind to further enhance the role of INT are to make the stat that determines what your able to caste as a magic user. Basicly to caste a spell you need to possess INT equal to the spells casting cost. To be honest this is an idea that I came up with after reading your post, haven't really thought about it in great detail....

Huh? Isn't this the same as what is already stated, that INT will be a prequiste to deciding what spells can be cast.

A somewhat crazy idea is that each imbued champion can cast a fixed number of spells.. So for example

 

Fireball -   At least 10 INT , cost to learn 5 INT

Iron skin -  At least 12 INT, cost to learn 10 INT

Dancing Sword - At least 10 INT, cost to learn 5 INT

 

So say if your imbued champion had 15 INT, he could pick 2 spells to cast Fireball & Iron skin, but he couldn't cast any other spell... even though he met the prequisite for all 3 spells. Maybe bring in Level of champion into it, such that each level gain you can choose another INT worth of spells to learn.

The sovereign of course would not need to pick and can cast any and all spells as long as his INT is high enough.

PRO : creates a RPG feel, each imbued champion feels different... One could specialise in direct attack spells, another support etc..

CON : depends on number of champions it gets tiresome to micromanage.. e.g when do they pick spells etc... Can they "swap out" spells etc

I hope that SD will change alot of the perks, specifically adding ones that would be game impacting to the magic you caste. Personally I think the starting perks +1 tec, 1+ arcane and 2 food are probably some of the most feeble starting perks starting perks ever. Honestly, there value doesn't go beyond the first period of the early game.

Magic perks that would actually be useful...

-Boost magic attacks

-Boost Summons

-Boost enchantments

-Boost magical dispels

-Enhanced magic defense

-Sov genarates X amount of mana that is added to the poll each turn

 

Agreed +1 etc , type effects on the sovereign alone, do not scale and are insignificant in the long run, so don't really matter.

+1 for *every unit* (think MOM's Warlord) or *per transaction* (think MOM's alchemy)  are the way to go. Percentage bonuses or discounts are all a good idea rather than just +x where x is 1,2,3 etc

EWOM is slowly moving towards MOM level of "fun", but one area where 1.1 seems to be moving backwards is how fun it is in MOM to customize your wizard which has huge effects on how you play. Right now i understand you don't even get to choose what spell books, but it's all in research, so starting choice seems to matter little.

 

I understand what you mean by the spell books thing; Wizerd creation was one of the most important gameplay choices you made as it affected your whole play style. However I see where SD are going with this, that is because it is impossible to predict what elemental shards you might be able to grab you instead get free rein to make spell school decison on the fly while playing the game.

Nonsense, in MOM you couldn't predict what nodes you would be able to get, it still worked fine. 

I used to believe games should give you perfect flexibility but now i realize part of the fun is to have some options taken away from you.  Again MOM did it best.. the number of spell books you had would determine which spells you would get.

And i agree it was more flexible, not "all for nothing" but granular.. 4 nature, 3 Sorcery etc. 

But even if you chose to go all for one.. say 11 book strategy it was fine.

There were also soft options to slightly change directions like trading spells (which made AIs wizards useful) and you could sometimes find spell books in very difficult encounters...

 

 

Reply #203 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 202

Nonsense, in MOM you couldn't predict what nodes you would be able to get, it still worked fine. 

I used to believe games should give you perfect flexibility but now i realize part of the fun is to have some options taken away from you.  Again MOM did it best.. the number of spell books you had would determine which spells you would get.

And i agree it was more flexible, not "all for nothing" but granular.. 4 nature, 3 Sorcery etc. 

But even if you chose to go all for one.. say 11 book strategy it was fine.

There were also soft options to slightly change directions like trading spells (which made AIs wizards useful) and you could sometimes find spell books in very difficult encounters...

Create an expensive spell to alter a shard? Maybe a skill where your Sovereign has to camp at it for 5 turns to reattune it to another element?

It's a highly solvable problem without having to either give out all books, or make which book you pick not matter.

Reply #204 Top

Quoting nikmesh, reply 198
So is casting time for spells confirmed in 1.1? If yes, then any idea what is going to pass for the MOM equivalent of 'casting skill?'

Casting Time isn't in 1.1, but it is speced to be included.  The problem is that Casting Time is big change with art, UI and AI implications and it interacts with future systems (meaning that if we implemented now we would need to reimplement later anyway).  So it isn't in 1.1, but I want Casting Time too.

Reply #205 Top

Thanks for confirming that Derek! Even if it's not part of 1.1, it's still excellent news =)

Reply #206 Top

Quoting Derek Paxton: "Essence is gone"

Derek, could you please give your reasoning for removing essence as a game mechanic?

Essence never worked right and was diminished throughout the dev process.  With your creative influence you can probably come up with a workable system that honors the original intentions of the essence mechanic.

BTW, I am really optimistic with the overall direction you are taking the game.  I look forward to 1.1 and beyond with great excitement.

Reply #207 Top

Quoting Derek, reply 204

Casting Time isn't in 1.1, but it is speced to be included.  The problem is that Casting Time is big change with art, UI and AI implications and it interacts with future systems (meaning that if we implemented now we would need to reimplement later anyway).  So it isn't in 1.1, but I want Casting Time too.

\o/

This thread just gets better and better.

Reply #208 Top

Really looking forward to this.

The Master of Magic mod team has been on standby waiting for the big changes in 1.1.

Reply #209 Top

Quoting Derek, reply 204
... Casting Time isn't in 1.1, but it is speced to be included.  The problem is that Casting Time is big change with art, UI and AI implications and it interacts with future systems (meaning that if we implemented now we would need to reimplement later anyway).  So it isn't in 1.1, but I want Casting Time too.

That's a solid example of why I think the Elemental project's biggest mistake was not making 'integrated metaphysics' an equal partner, or even superior, to 'integrated physics.' Those early design choices were driven by technical considerations and the assumption that later on 'content' would be easy to create at a satisfying level of quality. I remain convinced that content creation now would be far easier if a small set of serious, the-world-works-this-way decisions had been made. To mix metaphors, the game lacks magical constitution.

Reply #210 Top

Yeah, but we are where we are.  Hopefully we will get to somewhere good from here. ;-)

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #211 Top

Quoting GW, reply 209

That's a solid example of why I think the Elemental project's biggest mistake was not making 'integrated metaphysics' an equal partner, or even superior, to 'integrated physics.' Those early design choices were driven by technical considerations and the assumption that later on 'content' would be easy to create at a satisfying level of quality. I remain convinced that content creation now would be far easier if a small set of serious, the-world-works-this-way decisions had been made. To mix metaphors, the game lacks magical constitution.

Yep, i think 1.1 should be delayed until it is really complete. Releasing 1.1 without an initiative based combat system and without casting times is a mistake, because these are huge gameplay changes and an expansion that includes these changes will look like a new game.

Reply #212 Top

Yep, i think 1.1 should be delayed until it is really complete. Releasing 1.1 without an initiative based combat system and without casting times is a mistake, because these are huge gameplay changes and an expansion that includes these changes will look like a new game.

I could not disagree more. In someways it feels like they have delayed 1.1 too long as is. While I am all for supporting the devs as they try to make good steps forward, waiting too much time will have an significant effects on the community, both in terms of loss of members and more importantly the loss of hardworking community members willing to put effort into expanding the game. Most mod makers I converse with have either moved on to different games or put their mods on hold pending the new release. While these players may eventually return to play a more interesting version in six months, most of the former modders will more than likely have lost any desire to expand the medium.

Personally speaking, I think that initiative based combat and casting times are nice features, but are far from necessities. As long as there are AI and combat changes to make the game more challenging, the rest will flow in nicely. In my opinion, I think that initiative and casting times are far less important than some aspects which the devs have said they have no current plays to address. For Example, I have been told the devs are not even addressing the OP nature of towns taken from an opposite faction. While something like casting times would be a nicety, these towns are so OP that you can make them have negative unit build times, though the system will set the unit build time to 1 at this point.

Reply #213 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 203

Quoting luketan, reply 202
Nonsense, in MOM you couldn't predict what nodes you would be able to get, it still worked fine. 

I used to believe games should give you perfect flexibility but now i realize part of the fun is to have some options taken away from you.  Again MOM did it best.. the number of spell books you had would determine which spells you would get.

And i agree it was more flexible, not "all for nothing" but granular.. 4 nature, 3 Sorcery etc. 

But even if you chose to go all for one.. say 11 book strategy it was fine.

There were also soft options to slightly change directions like trading spells (which made AIs wizards useful) and you could sometimes find spell books in very difficult encounters...


Create an expensive spell to alter a shard? Maybe a skill where your Sovereign has to camp at it for 5 turns to reattune it to another element?

It's a highly solvable problem without having to either give out all books, or make which book you pick not matter.

 

Agreed. But i think this aspect where all spellbooks are researched is definitely in and the developers definitely not going to change this. The rest of the changes look promising to push towards a MOM-like game, except the beginning options don't matter... 

Oh well, I'll wait for EWOM II in 2014 then...

Reply #214 Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 211

Yep, i think 1.1 should be delayed until it is really complete. Releasing 1.1 without an initiative based combat system and without casting times is a mistake, because these are huge gameplay changes and an expansion that includes these changes will look like a new game.

And releasing nothing until June isn't a mistake? Will anybody be left around here by then?

For that matter, why is it not okay for an expansion to look like a new game, while it IS okay for a patch to look like a new game? That doesn't make sense.

Reply #215 Top

Quoting Derek, reply 204



Quoting nikmesh,
reply 198
So is casting time for spells confirmed in 1.1? If yes, then any idea what is going to pass for the MOM equivalent of 'casting skill?'


Casting Time isn't in 1.1, but it is speced to be included.  The problem is that Casting Time is big change with art, UI and AI implications and it interacts with future systems (meaning that if we implemented now we would need to reimplement later anyway).  So it isn't in 1.1, but I want Casting Time too.

Good to hear it! :)

Reply #216 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 213

Oh well, I'll wait for EWOM II in 2014 then...
Nah, that would be Galactic Civilizations III. Or maybe I get lucky and we get an RPG.

Reply #217 Top

Nah, that would be Galactic Civilizations III. Or maybe I get lucky and we get an RPG.

I would play a Stardock rpg, then again, I would play GalCiv 3 too. I think in the end, whatever game SD puts out next will be amazing after all the things that they have learned from their last few games.

Reply #218 Top

Quoting LDiCesare, reply 196
Interesting post.

I agree with darklander0 that Intelligence should be renamed Magic under the new system.

I strongly dislike the "exception" that sovereigns don't need intelligence to cast certain spells but champions do. I understand the rationale is to allow channelers to have low int and still be able to cast spells, but then I think it makes int much less important. If you have low int, you should hire champions with high int if you want to cast spells. I confess I dislike the idea because it's an exception and I dislike these. I dislike that channelers are SO different from the rest, including from other wizards.

I agree with this. It seems that the difference between sovereigns and wizards is ill defined, and something needs to be decided here. So far, I haven't seen a compelling need for this difference for any gameplay reason, and fictionally it creates difficulties. First of all, the sovereigns have been termed 'immortal', but if that were true, there would be no need for a dynasty system. Second, we also know that the units on the map most likely to die are in fact the sovereigns. So really, they are far from immortal, which then gives us back the reason for dynastic succession, but then if the sovereign dies, the faction dies with him, again leaving the concept of dynasties flapping in the wind. The role of the sovereign is still a dreadfully confused muddle.

The value of dynasties is that of smooth political transition. If everything depends on the original sovereign, then you don't need dynasties. Since we have them, and they do make for some interesting gameplay developments, why not use them and allow succession? Just because a sovereign doesn't age, doesn't mean he can't die, as we have seen n - 1 times in every complete game. :)

Reply #219 Top

Quoting nikmesh, reply 134

Derek Paxton or Kestral, has it been at all considered having armor being detrimental to dodge? The way I thought it could work for example is each armor weight class could halve a units dodge score. This could only work if dodge was made more powerful to account for the halving effect and that dodge would be at it's most effecient when used in light armor -Padded and leather armors-, with reduced effects on medium armors.

in a word: yes :)

Reply #220 Top

Hey Derek,

I think you mentioned the pacing of the first 30 turns is bad and you are right.  Is anything being done about that in 1.1?

Reply #221 Top

I personally would like change wisdom to agility and then:

-Agility gives us the base movements/attacks and the dodge chance

-dexterity gives the chance to hit our target (both melee and ranged).

-Strength adds bonus to damage in melee and also gives acces to heavy armor, heavy weapons. I.e. if you want to wear plate mail you need at least 15 str etc... Horses add some to strenght and movement.

-Constitution adds hps and some resistance to diseases spells

-Intelligence is the base for spell damage and could also raise whole abilities (optional)

   Bows damage would be a mix of str and dex

   And i would like a critical chance. Weapons could have a base critical. Could be 2 ways.

   First way: i.e. axe has 10% of critical base. And our warrior has a 67% chance to hit a target. We could do 6.7% chance for a critical and 60.3% for a normal strike. Critical hits need a critical dodge to avoid them. So if our target has a 21% of dodge then it has 2.1% chance to avoid the critical hit.

   Second way: Axe has 10% of critical chance. Our warrior has 67% chance to hit his target. If it hits then we woll again to see if it is acritical. 10% chance. Dodge chances same as first way.

 

But I guess we all have our own system, so do it as you wish :D

Keep on with the good work!

Reply #222 Top

This stuff sounds great. Thank you for addressing champions. I'm looking forward to playing Elemental again after 1.1 (and hopefully won't regret not taking the 75% refund).

Just want to give you guys a tip to watch out for High str champions with High speed weapons. It's an unintuitive combo, but it could very well make it so a super strong champion can use his linear attack bonus * higher attack speed for the exponential growth you guys were looking to avoid in the first place. Maybe some weapons need to have a cap on how much strength can be used?

Also, dexterity is very boring as a defense-only stat. Maybe add some sort of critical hit option in the future? If you choose to go this route, you could easily tie critical hit damage bonuses into bows, making dex the go to stat for archers.

Reply #223 Top

so.. how does imbuing work in 1.1? (without digging through a few hundred pages that is...)

 

i mean currently, the sov sacrifice max mp to give someone else some max mp...

with shared mp, does it cost anything?

Reply #224 Top

Quoting alaknebs, reply 223
so.. how does imbuing work in 1.1? (without digging through a few hundred pages that is...)

 

i mean currently, the sov sacrifice max mp to give someone else some max mp...

with shared mp, does it cost anything?

1 mana/turn to maintain it.

Reply #225 Top

1 mp per turn per caster?

children are auto imbued?