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The coming 1.1 patch

The coming 1.1 patch

  We have been hard at work on the 1.1 patch.  Today we built an internal alpha which went to our testers and they began reporting issues, bugs, etc.  Our feature list isn't completely implemented yet, there are still a few things to checkin but I expect that they will be all in by Monday.  The team has been told to focus on bug fixes and polish between now and next Thursday (11/18/2010) which we are targeting as the date for the release of the public 1.1 beta.
  What is coming?
  Toby already posted about the two major changes coming in 1.1.  Global Mana and Population as a resource (in that improvements consume population).  Global mana is a significant change to the magic side of the game, and all the spells have been adjusted to account for it.  Population to improvements is a significant change to the economic side of the game, forcing players to balance their population between economic, production and military goals.
  There are a lot of UI improvements, one of my favorites is the city idle popup.  You now get warned when a city has nothing let in its queue, and you have the opportunity to jump right to it.
  But 1.1 also includes a rebalancing of all the stats, combat, equipment and creatures.  The goal here is to visit all the core stats, baseline them and make sure the numbers are reasonable.  Toby has been working on it and I don't envy him, its a herculian task and it won't be perfect right out of the gate but it will be a step in the right direction and we will be looking for opportunities to make it even better.
  One detail part of the rebalance is that we had to review what all the stats did.  This is was they do in the current version of Elemental:
Strength- Every point of strength over 10 gives +10% to damage.
Dexterity- Every point of dexterity over 10 gives +10% to your armors absorption (aka:defense).
Constitution- Constitution is added to your max hit points.
Intellect- Intelligence is used by various spells to adjust damage/effects.
Wisdom- Wisdom was kind of a non-used stat but in some places Essence was referred to as wisdom, Essence increased your max MP.
Charisma- Charisma is used to reduce the cost of recruiting NPC's (champions).  Charisma didn't do anything for champions.
  In 1.1 they have been changed to the following:
Strength- Modifies damage
Dexterity- Modifies dodge
Constitution- Modifies hit points
Intelligence- Modifies spell resistance, boosts some spells, required for Champions to cast some spells
Charisma- Sovereigns Charisma modifies Champion recruit costs.  Champions and the Sovereign give a prestige boost to the city they are in.
  That leaves us with the following formulas:
Attack (which is damage) = Weapon Attack + ((Strength - 10)/2)
Defense (which is damage absorb) = Armor Defense
Accuracy = 15 + (Level * 2)
Dodge = Dexterity / 2
Hit Points = 10 + ( (Constitution / 5) * (2 * Level) )
Spell Resistance = Intelligence / 2
Prestige Boost in City = Charisma / 5
  Elemental uses opposing roles for combat.  So if I have 23 Accuracy (I'm 4th level) and you have 5 Dodge (you have a Dexterity of 10) then we both roll from 1 to our rating and the highest roll wins.  I get a random number from 1-23 and you get a random number from 1-5, meaning there is about a 87% chance I will hit you.  The numbers are strongly weighted in the attackers favor as we didn't want to have long strings of misses going back and forth. (in fact as I look at it now I think it may now be weighted enough, we may need to change accuracy to level * 3)
  The nice thing about this system is that it never becomes impossible to hit or damage anyone.  It may become unlikely, but its never a waste of your time, and no creature is ever not a threat.
  Strength modifies damage as it did before but its no longer such a huge impact.  We were having problems balancing weapons because a 15 attack weapon on a 40 strength guy is 45 attack.  Now that would be a 30 attack, still huge but workable.
  Dexterity used to add to your damage absorption.  Which is fairly non-intuitive for Dexterity and kept us from designing more specialized creatures.  We want some creatures to be easy to hit and hard to damage, and others to be hard to hit but easy to damage, to makes them more or less difficult against different parties and attackers.  It gives us design room to grow into.
  Constitution now modifies hit points per level.  But the most important part is that hit points are now modified per level!  As your sovereign and champions levels up they will gain hit points, no more glass cannons.  We have played with a few numbers to get a progression that values level and the players constitution reasonably, but all the above formula's might be tweaked based on playtest feedback.
  Wisdom is gone now.  There are now 5 base stats (as there are 5 factions on each side, 5 tech tree branches, etc) and Intelligence is the "magic" stat.  We have to balance this stat a bit differently than most games because every sovereign is a caster but we don't want to make it isn't worth putting points in other stats.  We also use it as a limiter for what spells champions can cast, but your sovereign's don't have the restriction.
  Charisma is our non-combat stat.  We really wanted to allow players to build sovereigns that were never planned for combat.  They stay at home.  Charisma is a great stat for that.  The city your sovereign is in will get increased prestige, you can recruit cheaper champions (and let them fight your wars for you) and if you recruit high charisma champions you can use those in your cities to push prestige even higher.
  So why do we focus on stat adjustments?  It certainly isn't the sexiest part of the game, and many players will play without even noticing they changed.  From a code perspective removing a stat is harder than adding a stat (since you have to get everything that references it) so it's a lot of work without much direct payoff.
  The reason is that it's where you have to begin to balance anything after.  In order to balance the armor we have to know what the stats effect on armor is (formerly +10% per point of dex over 10, now no effect on armor).  In order to balance weapons we have to know strengths exact effect, previously we couldn't create high attack weapons because strength had such a huge impact that it was exponential.  Making strength more linear allows us to make weapons more varied.  Now that we have accuracy and dodge in we can create big weapons with high damage but penalties to hit, or small weapons with bonuses to hit or speed, but low damage.  We have more range to work with.
772,582 views 259 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 22

Quoting darklander0, reply 21...For example 10 Strength would give you 1% bonus to you warfare tech research.

Huh? No. Why would it?

I think it makes more sense in a thematic way. Let' say you're building a Warlord/Warrior Sovereign and you put a heavy focus on your Strength I think that a small bonus to Warfare would be nice because in a thematic way it shows your Sovereigns dedication to "Way of the Warrior". 

Reply #27 Top

Was there any mention of 20-30 new quests in 1.1?

Reply #28 Top

Quoting darklander0, reply 27

I think it makes more sense in a thematic way. Let' say you're building a Warlord/Warrior Sovereign and you put a heavy focus on your Strength I think that a small bonus to Warfare would be nice because in a thematic way it shows your Sovereigns dedication to "Way of the Warrior". 

Eh, give them a warlord trait that helps with Warfare research then, but for everyone else it should not.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Grump2913, reply 26
I'm pretty big on manuals being useful and addendums being added (or parts being rewritten) when significant changes take place. Will there be a .pdf file that functions as an updated manual so that players who have been watching the development from the side won't have to dig for information and can have it handily at their side when playing? This would be a big boon for the community and disheartened players.

Frogboy has been working on it.

Reply #30 Top

To quote an earlier poster:
Why wasn't essence kept as a cap on how much mana can be spent by a unit during a single battle? Kinda like the casting points in Age of Wonders.

I'm curious about this, as well. The problem is that, without a per turn limit, there is no feeling of relative power. What fun is it to have my newly-imbued champion channeling the same amount of mana per turn as my sovreign? It's not.

Barring a cap, what about a %mana increase for imbued champions to represent inefficiency that scales down based on INT? I'm also not thrilled about the dodge to attack ratio, and that there are random distributions on the damage rolls, but I'll reserve final judgment until I actually play.

Reply #31 Top

Awesome post, thank you!

Just to play interpreter for a minute, when Kael says Essence is gone he's talking about a stat; when the players who were involved in the last two year's of boards and betas say Essence is GONE?!?! they are talking about a core conceptual difference between the word 'Essence' and the word 'Mana'. Newer readers (and devs) may not pick up on the emotionally charged subtext ;)

Reply #32 Top

I think it makes more sense in a thematic way. Let' say you're building a Warlord/Warrior Sovereign and you put a heavy focus on your Strength I think that a small bonus to Warfare would be nice because in a thematic way it shows your Sovereigns dedication to "Way of the Warrior".

Eh, give them a warlord trait that helps with Warfare research then, but for everyone else it should not.

I completely agree. I don't think sov stats should directly affect research, as it it make no sense. I can understand the idea of wanting to add some kind of thematic flavor to the game, but this would probably be better attached to classes instead of skills. So then the thief character gets a bonus to researching adventure because it makes sense thematically, but not simply because my sovereign has a dex of 30.

 

I am not sure why some people are unhappy with removing essence in general. It was a fairly arbitrary limitation on the power of the sovereign, and was a fairly OP stat as far as pre 1.1 is concerned. I mean why would anyone want to put points into anything else. Since none of us have actually played the new version, nor seen exactly how global mana works, I think it is safe to say that any outrage over the removal of essence is probably veiled outrage over the devs ignoring some small community conversation about how these players saw the future of the stat.

 

So far a lot of the OP sounds like it is moving in the right direction. Though I think think that tactical combat should be expanded even further, I think the changes above will make combat feel a lot more balanced. This sounds like a good first step towards a more interesting game.

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 25

Quoting RikazeMA, reply 23In hindsight, it does make sense though...  Perfect, logical, rational sense, and I really don't know why I didn't see it coming...  Hence the surprise.
How does it make sense? Other games with global mana that I am familiar with have a limit for how much a hero can use per turn, which is what essense could still do.
That overlaps with intelligence limiting available spells for champions, and it would be bad to limit a Sovereign's ability like that. When those are taken into account, that functionality for Essence would make it a pretty lame stat. I do agree that there should be some limit to mana expenditure by champions, but luckily they are limited by their actions, so it all works out okay.

Essence being lost is a bit bad thematically because it can no longer be invested in Champions and in invigorating the terrain, but one of those was already gone, and neither of those were ever implemented in particularly satisfying way. That wouldn't mesh with a mana-limit functionality anyway.

On that note, though, I have a question:

How does imbuing work now?

Reply #34 Top

Quoting kenata, reply 33

I am not sure why some people are unhappy with removing essence in general. It was a fairly arbitrary limitation on the power of the sovereign, and was a fairly OP stat as far as pre 1.1 is concerned. I mean why would anyone want to put points into anything else. Since none of us have actually played the new version, nor seen exactly how global mana works, I think it is safe to say that any outrage over the removal of essence is probably veiled outrage over the devs ignoring some small community conversation about how these players saw the future of the stat.

It is more the fact that it will not matter who casts a spell, the only diffrence between one hero and the next (when it comes to spell) will be what spell they will have access to.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 34

How does imbuing work now?

Imbues are to have a mana upkeep.

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Unless there is a stat that effects the ability to use magic other than the one that unlocks spells, then once that is high enough to use the biggest spell then caster heroes will be investing in non-magic stats (likely DEX and CON) and will never, ever need or want to become better at magic again.

Reply #36 Top

If the most expensive spell in the game only costs 20 mana (like now) then you don't really need a mana-per-turn limit as you are never going to get into multi-turn casting. If you can afford to cast ten 20 mana spells in one turn then you probably deserve to be able to.

On the other hand if the game is to become more like MOM and have epic-level spells, then multi-turn casting and a per-turn limit will probably inevitably evolve into Elemental.

Reply #37 Top

It is more the fact that it will not matter who casts a spell, the only diffrence between one hero and the next (when it comes to spell) will be what spell they will have access to.

Let me reiterate that the above does not say this at all, and since the current system rewards a player for making an army of super powered essence wielding super men, I am sure the new system will have more than one single stat controlling the difference between the sov and the heroes of various levels.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 35

Quoting kenata, reply 33
I am not sure why some people are unhappy with removing essence in general. It was a fairly arbitrary limitation on the power of the sovereign, and was a fairly OP stat as far as pre 1.1 is concerned. I mean why would anyone want to put points into anything else. Since none of us have actually played the new version, nor seen exactly how global mana works, I think it is safe to say that any outrage over the removal of essence is probably veiled outrage over the devs ignoring some small community conversation about how these players saw the future of the stat.

It is more the fact that it will not matter who casts a spell, the only diffrence between one hero and the next (when it comes to spell) will be what spell they will have access to.

Note that some spells will have scale with the caster's intelligence. Based on how things are now, I'd imagine that this "some" actually means "every single one where that could possibly be the case".

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 36

Quoting Cruxador, reply 34
How does imbuing work now?

Imbues are to have a mana upkeep.

oh, okay. That's a very elegant solution.

Unless there is a stat that effects the ability to use magic other than the one that unlocks spells, then once that is high enough to use the biggest spell then caster heroes will be investing in non-magic stats (likely DEX and CON) and will never, ever need or want to become better at magic again.

Yes... until you research a more powerful spell. If the game can reach a point where that doesn't happen, then that's a problem, but it's not a problem with this particular system. And we've seen no indication that that problem exists. If you decide, "okay, this champion can use this powerful spell, that's good enough" and then invest in other attributes, then that's a decision you're making, and it should be valid, but it doesn't detract from the ability to not do that.

Also note that the fact that Intelligence buffs many spells is also relevant here.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Gyb, reply 37
If the most expensive spell in the game only costs 20 mana (like now) then you don't really need a mana-per-turn limit as you are never going to get into multi-turn casting. If you can afford to cast ten 20 mana spells in one turn then you probably deserve to be able to.

On the other hand if the game is to become more like MOM and have epic-level spells, then multi-turn casting and a per-turn limit will probably inevitably evolve into Elemental.
Spells currently use actions, as influenced by the speed stat (the actual name of which slips my mind). As that wasn't mentioned in the OP at all I doubt it was subject to these rewrites. I would imagine that this would continue to be the case.

Reply #40 Top

i am really hoping that we can make heroes much more varied.  i worry with this system that all of my heroes will be spell casters.  i would like to create heroes that are good in different things.  would it not be good that heroes gain essence with each level and that essence would be spent on spells and abilities?  i would like to purchase a spinning attack for my awesome warrior hero, or buy a new spell for my wizard hero.

Reply #41 Top

Essence isn't gone, it's just not a stat anymore since you pull from a global mana pool.  I.e. a magician must have essence to cast spells and only channelers have essence inherently (but can imbue heroes to have it).  It's a bool.

 

Reply #42 Top

Quoting Cruxador, reply 39

Note that some spells will have scale with the caster's intelligence. Based on how things are now, I'd imagine that this "some" actually means "every single one where that could possibly be the case".
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Yes... until you research a more powerful spell. If the game can reach a point where that doesn't happen, then that's a problem, but it's not a problem with this particular system. And we've seen no indication that that problem exists. If you decide, "okay, this champion can use this powerful spell, that's good enough" and then invest in other attributes, then that's a decision you're making, and it should be valid, but it doesn't detract from the ability to not do that.

Also note that the fact that Intelligence buffs many spells is also relevant here.

You must have missed that conversation, intelligence is only for the spells you will be able to cast.

Also in an attempt to simplify some of the confusion over spell damage and how it is affected by your INT we are going towards more flat damage numbers for spells which your intelligence will not be increasing.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/399192/page/6

Currently there is a max level of 10 for spells as there are none above that. Yes they could go above that, but what is bigger than the Spell of Making that makes you all powerful and win the game? Thus after level 10 (if you are going all INT) there will be no reason to invest in INT, the only magic stat in the game.

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Reply #43 Top

Quoting Stmorpheus, reply 41
i am really hoping that we can make heroes much more varied.  i worry with this system that all of my heroes will be spell casters.
This won't happen. If imbued champions have a mana upkeep, that means you want to have as few casters as you can.
i would like to create heroes that are good in different things.  would it not be good that heroes gain essence with each level and that essence would be spent on spells and abilities?  i would like to purchase a spinning attack for my awesome warrior hero, or buy a new spell for my wizard hero.
Abilities like that have been discussed. Last I heard, there will be some sort of thing like that in 1.1. I don't know if that's still true or how it would work, though.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 43

Quoting Cruxador, reply 39
Note that some spells will have scale with the caster's intelligence. Based on how things are now, I'd imagine that this "some" actually means "every single one where that could possibly be the case".
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Yes... until you research a more powerful spell. If the game can reach a point where that doesn't happen, then that's a problem, but it's not a problem with this particular system. And we've seen no indication that that problem exists. If you decide, "okay, this champion can use this powerful spell, that's good enough" and then invest in other attributes, then that's a decision you're making, and it should be valid, but it doesn't detract from the ability to not do that.

Also note that the fact that Intelligence buffs many spells is also relevant here.

You must have missed that conversation, intelligence is only for the spells you will be able to cast.

Also in an attempt to simplify some of the confusion over spell damage and how it is affected by your INT we are going towards more flat damage numbers for spells which your intelligence will not be increasing.
https://forums.elementalgame.com/399192/page/6

I did indeed miss that, thank you. However, the OP of this thread explicitly states that Intelligence "boosts some spells", so even if intelligence was planned to have no such effect half a month ago, it is clear that it is planned to do at least something of that nature now. The cited reason for removing it is to decrease confusion. Lots of games do something like specify a constant damage value and add a stat modifier to it. That would be accurate to both the anti-confusion goal, and the new information in this thread, and is what I suspect that they're doing.

Currently there is a max level of 10 for spells as there are none above that. Yes they could go above that, but what is bigger than the Spell of Making that makes you all powerful and win the game? Thus after level 10 (if you are going all INT) there will be no reason to invest in INT, the only magic stat in the game.
If you cast the Spell of Making, then it's irrelevant because you just won. It is true that there is no need to invest in INT beyond that (besides whatever bonuses to spells are actually going to be in the game) but at that point it is purely academic. If the balance is such that it's viable for someone other than your sovereign to cast the Spell of Mastery in all but a thousandth of cases, then that's the problem there. It's not a problem with the stat system itself, but rather, with the amounts of INT that a champion is capable of gathering in relation to the threshold numbers required for a champion to cast a given spell. If this problem does arise, it would be most elegantly fixed by changing the INT thresholds, and not altering the stat system in any way.

Reply #45 Top

I am personally concerned with Intelligence being the only casting stat, I feel as if there should be a second one.  Int being the offensive stat, and something else playing the role of defensive stat.  Maybe its just me though.

As for Essence, is it out completely? Or is it out as a stat?

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Cuddlelump, reply 46
I am personally concerned with Intelligence being the only casting stat, I feel as if there should be a second one.  Int being the offensive stat, and something else playing the role of defensive stat.  Maybe its just me though.

As for Essence, is it out completely? Or is it out as a stat?

see

Quoting Draginol, reply 42
Essence isn't gone, it's just not a stat anymore since you pull from a global mana pool.  I.e. a magician must have essence to cast spells and only channelers have essence inherently (but can imbue heroes to have it).  It's a bool.

In other words, a champion either has essence, and thus can use magic, or does not, and thus can not. Sovereigns always have essence, and champions must be imbued, which apparently had a mana upkeep now. So far as I know, nobody's talked about where heirs fit in.

Reply #47 Top

If children have a mana upkeep, things might get a little dicey if the dynasty is especially fertile whilst the nation produces little mana. *_*

Reply #48 Top

Why do you have to remove wisdom completely... why can't you just ignore it and keep it invisible to the player?  Who knows there might come a reason you want it back.

Overall this looks good, but also I wanted to say I'm less than enthused by one more popup slapping me in the face.  Between idle cities and caravans I'll barely be able to see the game.  Can't we have a different system for these kinds of alerts, like icons off to the side?

Reply #49 Top



  There are a lot of UI improvements, one of my favorites is the city idle popup.  You now get warned when a city has nothing let in its queue, and you have the opportunity to jump right to it.

 

 

One of my pet peeves right now is the fact that the 'find cities needing something to do button' at the bottom of the screen only takes you to cities not doing anything.  It'd be nice if that was changed to 'find cities with either the build or training cue open'.  That way, you don't have to manually click on each city that has one of it's two cues open.

 

Other than that, looks like a lot of good ideas!  Can't wait for the beta testers to get their hands on it.  I'd love to help with the beta!

Reply #50 Top

So why do we focus on stat adjustments?  It certainly isn't the sexiest part of the game, and many players will play without even noticing they changed.  From a code perspective removing a stat is harder than adding a stat (since you have to get everything that references it) so it's a lot of work without much direct payoff.
This post gives me a lot of hope regarding how fun this game is. Hopefully there will be much more meaningful variety of equipment in the game now, with different corresponding strategies.