Next Stardock Game Request - RPG

from Elemental Forums

I would like to see Stardock consider an RPG for their next game that would feature 7 elements;

  1. Pathfinder RPG Rule-set (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) under Open Gaming License; i.e. free to use
  2. Overhead perspective with turn based tactical battles (aka Return to Temple of Elemental Evil)
  3. World changing events caused by player actions or inactions that have a profound effect on gameplay
  4. NPC AI that reacts to player actions and act to advance their long-term goals
  5. Quests with multiple solutions
  6. Frequent Expansion sets
  7. Moddable

1. PathFinder Rule-set

The Pathfinder Rule-set (the successor to D&D V3.5) is available for use at no cost as it uses the Open Gaming License. This would give you access to a rule-set that would form the basis for the game design and tactical battle actions. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ . This makes game design so much easier as you are starting with a system that has been playtested.

2. Overhead perspective with tactical battles.

Most RPG players would agree that the Atari game Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil had the best tactical combat system for an RPG. In this turn based system players moved each unit one at a time based on their initiative - making decisions such as charging, defending, attacking, or delaying a turn to achieve a tactical advantage.

3. World Changing Events

If the player actions had dramatic effect on the world it would dramatically enhance the replayability and player involvement with the game.

Example 1: The players accept a task to uncover who is sabatoging the construction of a new castle. If they succeed a Castle with new NPCs and quests appears on the map. If they fail the Castle does not appear they will not have the assistance of the these new NPC PCs and castle defenses (think catapults) when the village is attacked.

Example 2: The PCs decline a quest to clear the forest of giant spiders. This allows the spiders to grow in number and ulimately attack the village under the guidance of a drow priestess and two driders. If the castle was not built they will likely overrun the village, burn it to the ground and move-on. If the castle was built and their attack is succeful the drow establish a base in the castle. The PCs experience is dramatically changed by two linked decisions.

Example 3: Likewise the PCs might aid an aspiring noble. The PCs actions might allow this noble to equip a powerful army and launch an attack upon a neighboring barony. Or the PCs actions might obstruct this noble's actions to build an army or encourage him to ally with the neighboring barony. Once more, the Pcs actions can have a dramatic effect on the game world and the outcome of an attack by an army of evil humanoids -will it be two allied kingdoms facing the evil army or one weakened by battle.

4. NPC AI with unpredictable encounters

Too often, in RPG games such as NWN, TOEE and Baldar's gate the NPCs do not react to player actions. You attack the temple once and withdraw to heal the AI does not increase patrols or plan an ambush to greet the PC on their return. If you decline a request to find those sabatoging the construction of the castle the AI does not hire other adventurers to conduct the investigation (and collect the reward). I would like to see an RPG game where the major NPC characters took action based on the PCs actions on in-actions and their own plans. Thus the game is not only a game of decision making but its also a game of time. Take too long to rest after your initial foray into a dungeon and the AI chief may have a nasty surprise waiting for your next visit. Wait longer and the AI may attack the village where you are resting.

Unpredictable Encounters? Its quite simple really - 50% Situation A, 30% AI Situation B, 20% Situation C. This would dramatically increase the replayability of the game and call on the player to really pay attention during replays - as no replay is a simple walk in the park for encounters can change.

Example 1: Brigands have taken the quarry workers captive, the PCs must rescue them to complete the castle's construction. The problem? The birgands are not in the same place every game.

Situation A: Brigands have taken the quarry workers captive - a simple battle with Brigands in Location B and C.
Situation B: The Brigands are mixed among the Quarry workers, the PCs can't use area magic without harming the captives.
Situation C: Brigands have prepared an ambush, with Brigands in Locations B and C supported by an additional group in area E, the brigand leader blows his horn and group E attacks enters the battle from behind the PCs.

5. Quests with Mulitple Solutions

Too often in RPG games quests have a single solution. I would like to see more open ended quests. See the Baron's Quest example in a post below. Here the PCs have several ways to acquire 100 swords for their baron. Each solution has a unique twist.

Example 3: The PCs accept a quest to stop the construction of the castle. They can do so in several ways: neutralize the engineer in charge, attack the worksite, stop the work at the quarry or remove the source of its financing. Each solution is equally valid with its own unique challenges. If the PCs decide to neutralize the engineer - they should do so in a manner where the event would not be traced back to them. If they publicly kill him, as many players will attempt, the local baron will likely place a bounty on their heads. However, if a feeblemind spell is used the goal may be safely achieved - with the castle collapsing after it is constructed.

6. Frequent Expansion Sets

Too often an RPG has expansion packs that are released a year or two after the release of the main game.

I would like to see a continual stream of bi-monthly mini and major expansion sets that add; new NPCs, new monsters, new spells, new classes, new maps and new quests to the game.

The Monthly DLC - mini-expansion packs - available through a subscription would include; new classes, prestige classes, races, NPCs, updated NPC AI, updated conversation trees, monsters, spells, and focus on new adventures and quests that utilize existing maps and enhance existing encounters. The bi-monthly expansion pack would feature new maps and encounter areas. Cost: About $6 a month for new cotent to enhance the game would provide a predictable stream of income for Stardock and provide players with a constantly improving RPG experience.

Economics: 10k subscribers x $6/month = $720K a year - enough to pay for a dedicated team of developers. 20k subscribers = $1.4M a year

7. Moddable

The game should allow the player to easily add new content, quests and NPCs to the game world.

misc
68,423 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Funny thing, I was considering recently what an RPG made by Stardock would look like. It's not something they've done before though, I don't know how much of their resources could be used for that.

Your specific plan has a lot of flaws, though.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

8. Another feature I would like to see are 2 skills that are not included in most RPG games; Jump & Swim

Each one of these would give the PC more options when confronting a challenge.

  • Jump - a character can leap across impassible terrain or safely jump from rock to rock across a river of lava. A successful skill check lands you at your destination tile, a failed check lands you on a tile in the middle of your jump distance - which may land you in deep water (see below), lava or drop you 40 feet to lower level terrain with the fall causing damage unless you are a monk.
  • Swim - a PC could swim across a moat to enter a castle or swim accross a river to elude pursuers. A failed swim check would result in the character losing inventory or drowning. Implementation would be handled with two types of water terrain; deep water (requires a swim check) and shallow water (does not require a swim check). Example: You are in a town on stilts, a mob of pirates is approaching. You can stand and fight or jump in the water to swim to safety. Of course, if you decide to jump in the water you will likely have to leave your armor behind (or suffer an armor check penalty)

9. Races: I would like to see more racial specific characteristics benefits than shown in most other RPG games. This would give you a reason to include characters of other races in your party.

Example 1: Size. There might be tunnels that only those of small size can enter. This would open up new opportunities for parties that include gnome or halfling sized characters. It would give magic users another reason to learn the reduce size spell. This would also open up new opportunities for hit and run attacks by goblin and kolbald tribes defending their underground lairs.

Example 2: Darkvision. Some races such as Dwarves, Gnomes and Orcs have the ability to see in the dark. Only they can see threats hidden by darkness beyond the light of the party's lantern. If you party does not have a dwarf or orc it will not see the outlines of 2 creatures waiting in the darkness for them in the passageway in time to avoid or prepare for combat.

Example 3: Languages. You encounters hill giants. If your character has the skill Language(Giant) you can converse with-them instead of just attacking them. Likewise if you know Infernal you can attempt to use diplomacy with Salamanders from the Elemental plane of fire. This really opens up the game to players that like to rely on bluff, intimidate and diplomacy to achieve their goals (P.S. bluffing a giant is easier than trying to intimidate one :grin: ). (and don't forget the Know Languages spell)

10. News Classes & Races: A stardock game should have one or two new classes - perhaps the witch (master of potions, enchantments, illusions and broom flying) and a necromancer (master of the undead,death and disease that loses charisma (-1) every 5 levels)

10.1 An original race or two - perhaps the Frog People - natural jumpers and swimmers but physically weaker than the other humanoid races (-2 strength) and unable to wear most humanoid armor & footwear (i.e. really big webbed feet keep them from wearing human shoes or elven boots) and unable to use certain magical items (i.e. can't wear magical rings due to really big webbed hands). Frog People can swim without fear of drowning and can easily jump 60 feet or more - far more than a human can (normal frogs can jump 20x their own length) while leaping over their enemies in high ceiling (or wilderness) combat areas. Yes, a frog people racial choice would make for a most interesting combat and roleplaying option given their unique abilities.

11. I like the Pathfinder RPG rule-set / d20 System Reference Documents because;

a. You start with a large built in audience (i.e. D&D) that would boost sales
b. Time tested and simple tactical combat system (initiative, weapons effects, armor ratings, combat tactics, etc.)
c. Lots of room for expansions and downloadable content
d. Comparatively easy to program for
e. The D20 "System Reference Document is a comprehensive toolbox consisting of rules, races, classes, feats, skills, various systems, spells, magic items, and monsters compatible with the d20 System version of Dungeons & Dragons and various other roleplaying games from Wizards of the Coast. You may consider this material Open Game Content under the Open Game License, and may use, modify, and distribute it." I.e. you can use the d20 ruleset and the listed monsters, spells, etc. and add new ones but you can't call it D&D.

This means no royalties to or approval from Atari/Hasbro are required, though I would consider a relationship with Paizo Publishing for use of their product identity content & rule modifications from their Pathfinder RPG d20 world. www.paizo.com

The core Pathfinder system rules are also available under the Open Gaming License. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ . This means that the core rules are available for free for anyone to use under the terms of the OGL.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Actually, see the wonder that Chris Avellone (Obsidian) and his buddies have managed to make with the crappy Gamebryo (Oblivion/Fallout * 3 *) engine? See how good writing, not-obvious multiple choices, and deeper meaning (via allegory or good characterization) can transform a decent RPG into a masterpiece? This is what it's all about, especially your "point 3".

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Last thing I knew Chris was working on big time was Alpha Protocol - which did not do so hot.  But Fallout New Vegas seems to be doing better.

I would also like to see a Stardock style sandbox RPG.   Oblivion and Fable are the big names in that particular niche, but neither really strikes my fancy well - Oblivion mostly because the mechanics that have been driving the Bethesda games are pretty poor, and Fable because, well... it's Fable. :P

I think a "Dwarf Fotress" + bigger budget would be pretty much up Star Dock's alley, and given the recent hit (for it's scope) that Minecraft is, might even make a certain amount of business sense.

However, I wouldn't adapt the D&D ruleset.  For as much as I like D&D, the 3.5 ruleset is really suboptimal for conversion to a computer game.  So much of the effort the NWN1 & 2 team put into the games had to be focused on adapting to 'not computer friendly' rules, which could have been put elsewhere.  Further, there are lots of opportunities that a CRPG has for additional depth and interest that a pen and paper doesn't, because the computer will do the book keeping for you, where as a pen and paper RPG will not.  If you really want to play D&D on a computer, I suggest trying DDO, it's free to play now.

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally if they do an RPG I'd like to see it in a different genre to the standard fantasy fare. Something like a Superhero RPG. There are three superhero MMORPGs, and the only single player superhero RPGs I can think of were the old Freedom Force games.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ppboyle, reply 4
Last thing I knew Chris was working on big time was Alpha Protocol - which did not do so hot.  But Fallout New Vegas seems to be doing better.

I would also like to see a Stardock style sandbox RPG.   Oblivion and Fable are the big names in that particular niche, but neither really strikes my fancy well - Oblivion mostly because the mechanics that have been driving the Bethesda games are pretty poor, and Fable because, well... it's Fable.

I think a "Dwarf Fotress" + bigger budget would be pretty much up Star Dock's alley, and given the recent hit (for it's scope) that Minecraft is, might even make a certain amount of business sense.

However, I wouldn't adapt the D&D ruleset.  For as much as I like D&D, the 3.5 ruleset is really suboptimal for conversion to a computer game.  So much of the effort the NWN1 & 2 team put into the games had to be focused on adapting to 'not computer friendly' rules, which could have been put elsewhere.  Further, there are lots of opportunities that a CRPG has for additional depth and interest that a pen and paper doesn't, because the computer will do the book keeping for you, where as a pen and paper RPG will not.  If you really want to play D&D on a computer, I suggest trying DDO, it's free to play now.

 

That's one opinion.  I would adapt the D&D ruleset.  The level of computer friendly or not is irrelevant.  IF you were trying to market to a wider audience than would play it.  Having the ruleset is a badge of honor.  People would buy it and even pre-order it based on that fact alone.

*Stardock has the creativity and the humor to pull off a good RPG or turn based tactics game.  or both. 

*Also could just basically keep their own game universe.  Imagine getting to create a character for RPG/Tactics game with Gal Civ races! Whoo!

Lastly DDO is not even close to what is being asked for.

Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I would love to see a MMORPG loosely based on a Harry Turtledove Alternate History world...I would be all over a game like that! :thumbsup:

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Another reason to use the D&D ruleset (aka Pathfinder Ruleset or the d20 Ruleset) is that the ruleset has been extensively playtested and documented.

By adopting a proven ruleset the designers can focus on what really matters - the user experience and developing an RPG world with locations, quests, adventures, dungeons and an NPC AI that will engross and challenge players. They don't have to spend months building and testing a new ruleset that may not work as well as they expected (i.e. look at Stardock's experience with Elemental).

Futhermore, under the Open Gaming License developers are free to change or modify the ruleset. If something will not work in a PC environment or is out of scope you can change it's mechanics or exclude it from the product requirements. You have a lot of freedom with the OGL.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Edwin99, reply 8
Another reason to use the D&D ruleset (aka Pathfinder Ruleset or the d20 Ruleset) is that the ruleset has been extensively playtested and documented.
The fact that they already know the ways in which it is broken is not that important. Fixing a broken thing is a lot more difficult than noticing that it's broken. Especially when something is hugely and fundamentally broken, as with 3.5. That's why Pathfinder's changes basically just emulate 4e whenever they think they can get away with it. They mitigate the problems, but don't fix them.

By adopting a proven ruleset the designers can focus on what really matters - the user experience and developing an RPG world with locations, quests, adventures, dungeons and an NPC AI that will engross and challenge players. They don't have to spend months building and testing a new ruleset that may not work as well as they expected (i.e. look at Stardock's experience with Elemental).
RPG systems are not that tough to design, all things considered. It is easier to say "okay, here's something we want, how doe this fit in" than it is to say "okay, this is something that our system has, how could we make it work?". In the latter case, you are limited to those things done or done well by the system you're using, in the former, your game can be its own thing.

Futhermore, under the Open Gaming License developers are free to change or modify the ruleset. If something will not work in a PC environment or is out of scope you can change it's mechanics or exclude it from the product requirements. You have a lot of freedom with the OGL.
This is true, but considering it's such a heinously flawed framework, they're better off choosing the option with even more freedom: Their own system.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

I´m more a RPG - Player, then a strategy player. The RPG elements and the fantasy setting brought me to elemental: wow and of course its TBS.

A rpg from SD could be great. I would pre order any party - rpg with a harsh adult fantasy world and story, a pinch of black humor, sex and intrigues ( G. R. R. Martin, Steve Erikson), tbs - tactical battles and a deep char - generation and development. 

And pls, no mmorpg.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I like all that OP is suggesting. I would love a pathfinder based RPG. Does not need to be TBS, as Dragon Age worked well without it (better then NWN 1 and 2). Making it pretty much free roaming, something like Storm of Zehir but much better would be the way to go.

Making their own system has its advantages, but it can also make the mechanics behind the game crap like Dragon Age where nobody knows how half the things actually work.

But best of all it needs a strong interesting story and strong characters.

Something like Dragon Age but with better mechanics behind it all. Like Pathfinder's :D

 

As a reference check out Knights of the Chalice crpg.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

TorinReborn, I agree that the RPG should be free roaming with an interesting story and strong characters.
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In fact, I would like to see the PCs choices influence the path of the game.

Example 1: Two quests - Clear the Spider forest and the Dungeons of Stone.

1. If the PCs visit the Spider Forest first the Dungeons of Stone adventure becomes more difficult to complete as Hobgoblins have moved in to take over the caverns of the Goblins while the PCs were busy clearing the Spider Forest of its vermin.

2. If they clear the Dungeons of Stone first the creatures in the spider forest grow in number and attack the neighboring village. Perhaps another group of NPC adventurer's has a % chance to complete a quest if the PCs fail to address it by a specific game date. 

This would a) increase replayability, 2) add a bit of strategy to the players choice of which quests to undertake, and 3) give your decisions major consequences.
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Example 2: Barony - PC Actions Affect the Future!

When the players reach level 6 the Barony will be attacked by an army of Orcs. Before then the player has an option to complete quests that will affect the battle.

Quest 1: Clear the road of Lizardmen raiders. Doing so will open up the barony to more trade, attract new NPCs to the barony and cause local merchants to offer a greater variery of goods to purchase. Increased tax revenue will allow the baron to hire a skilled Commander of the Guard (i.e. NPC Ftr3 is replaced by a new NPC Ftr6).

Solution A. Brute Force Approach – Slay the lizardmen. PCs enter the swamp, find the lair of the lizardmen and eradicate them.

Designer’s Note: If the PCs leave the lizardmen lair to rest before dealing with the chief, they find that the lizardmen Chief has recalled his raiding parties to strengthen the lair’s defenses.

Solution B. Diplomatic Approach – The PCs can redirect the lizardmen’s attacks elsewhere if the baron will agree to provide them with weapons. With the approval of the baron Lizardmen will be allowed to visit his barony markets to trade.

Designer’s Note: This result causes the Lizardmen to raid another neighboring realm. If the lord of the neighboring realm discovers that the baron is providing arms to the Lizardmen he will attack the barony.

Designer's Note - Skill Challenge - Pass 2 of 3 skill checks to convince the baron to provide weapons to lizardmen
- Diplomacy (DC 10 - Fail #1) - If I provide the lizardment weapons, the neighboring barons will attack me.
- Diplomacy (DC 10 - Fail #2) - What you ask is too risky, I will not provide the lizardmen with weapons.
- Diplomacy (DC 10 - Success #1) - I provide the weapons and they attack my enemies, good idea.
- Diplomacy (DC 10 - Success #2) - Tell the lizardmen I will provide them weapons if they direct their raids elsewhere.
- Knowledge-History (DC 10 - Sucess #1) - Yes, during my grandfather's reign we traded with the lizard folk.
- Intimidate (Automatic - Failure #1) - Do not threaten me, I am the Baron.
- Intimidate (Automatic - Failure #2) - Guards, remove these insolent guests from my presence. I never wish to see them again.

Designer’s Note: If the baron allows Lizardmen to visit his village, the PCs will encounter Lizardmen in the barony’s marketplace. The PC may recruit a lizardmen to join their party (Diplomacy Check)

Solution C. Intimidate Approach – After losing most of their tribe to the PCs the Lizardmen promise not to raid travelers on the road to the barony, if the PCs will let them live in peace.

Designer's Note: With this approach the Lizardmen will slowly replinish their numbers and PCs may consult with them in the future.

Quest 2: Explore long forgotten temple ruins for the Baron and give him a 50% share of the treasure. Doing so allows the baron to hire 20 experienced guards and purchase a catapult.

Quest 3: Convince an armorer to move to the barony. Doing so will improve the armor of the baron's men from Leather to Studded Leather and Shield.

Quest 4:  The baron needs 100 long swords to equip his men at arms. If the PCs complete this quest the Baron's men at arms will find their weapons upgraded from short swords (d6 damage) to long swords (d8 damage). There are several ways to complete this mission - each of which has consequences for the PCs and the Baron that hired them.

  1. Solution A: Openly purchase the weapons from a local realm and have their lord find out that the baron is preparing for war. This will lead this lord to mobilize his men to attack the baron unless the PCs convince him that the baron is not preparing to attack his realm.
    1. Designer's Note - Skill Challenge - Pass 3 of 5 skill checks to convince the local lord your baron is not preparing to attack him. Fail, and 1) you will not be allowed to purchaser the weapons and 2) after you return to the barony it will be attacked by this lord's men at arms. A most dramatic consequence - failure = war! 100 men at arms attack the barony. Will the PCs defend the Barony or will they flee?
  2. Solution B: Pay 50% more and use a middleman to purchase the weapons from a local realm to hide the destination of these weapons.
    1. Designer's Note - There are three middle men - one will honor the contract, the second will abscond with the money and the  third will inform the local lord that your baron is arming his men to attack his realm. If the PC's select the third middleman; the informer, they will need to complete a skill challenge - pass 4 of 5 checks to convince the lord and his advisors of their Baron's honest intentions. If they fail, the lord will lead an attack on the Barony. A dramatic consequence that uses the same adventure path code as failure for Solution A.
  3. Solution C: Steal the weapons from a warehouse or an armory in a neigboring realm.
    1. Designer's Note: The PCs must avoid or distract the armory guards, break into the armory, gather 100 swords, and leave the city without being searched. If they are caught they will be arrested and imprisoned - their equipment and coin confiscated by the crown unless they convince the Sheriff of their innocence (unlikely, but possible).
    2. Designer's Note: The PCs can leave the city via the main gate or via the sewers. Via the main gate and they must get past the guards without being searched (Skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Magic: Charm, Suggestion). Via the sewers they must deal with the creatures that reside there - while heavily encumbered with 100 swords.
  4. Solution D: Purchase the weapons in a distant city.
    1. Designer's Note: One week to travel to this city and another week to return. If the PCs dally in the city; take longer than 16 days, they return to find that the barony fell to an Orcish army while they were away with many buildings in ruins and Orcs controlling the Castle.
  5. Solution E: Attack Bandit Camp - The most straight forward solution. Find the lair of the bandits and attack. Kill the bandits and take their weapons. The downside is that it will allow the Baron to upgrade only 50 of his men's weapons. This also means that you need only purchase 50 weapons and the reduced purchase size less likely to arouse the suspicions of the neighboring Baronies.

When the Orcs attack the actions of the PCs can tilt the balance from defeat to victory for the baron and save the lives of the baron's subjects if the PCs fight alongside a well armed and trained fighting force instead of an ill equipped and poorly trained militia.

PS: If the Baron loses this battle the village outside his keep will be burnt to the ground and most of its resident NPCs slain. No longer will the PCs be able to visit merchants here or gaze upon the beauty of what was this village. All they will see are its ruins.

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Likewise, as game time passes some of the major NPCs should grow in power to reflect the fact they they too are completing adventures and gaining in experiencem, influence or power - if the PCs have not foiled their "evil" plans.

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RE: Pathfinder/d20/D&D4th edition ruleset. Some may say that this ruleset is broken (I disagree for I like the many options it offers); however, for the last 20 years it has outsold all its competitors by a very very large margin (my guess would be on the order of 10,000+ to 1). You can see the recent sales numbers via Neilsen BookScan or get a relative view of a ruleset's popularity by looking at its Amazon Besteller Rank; Pathfinder Players Core Rulebook (Amazon Rank: 2,328), Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Player's Handbook (Amazon Rank: 11,705), Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition Players Handbook (Amazon Rank 9,582). You could use the ruleset for a campaign in the Elemental universe and add spells unique to Elemental.

As Supremen Shogun said "I would adapt the D&D ruleset.....IF you were trying to market to a wider audience.....Having the ruleset is a badge of honor.  People would buy it and even pre-order it based on that fact alone."

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Stardock's 2nd studio was going to do be doing an RPG I believe.

 

That said, according to one of Brad's posts, it sounds like GalCiv III will be next.  The RPG may happen if they ever get a 2nd games studio (which will require Elemental or GalCivIII being successful I think)

 

It makes sense after the Elemental drama to take the lessons, then apply them to their most successful franchise, and Kael's touch could add plenty to GalCiv, which is already a fairly refined and popular formula.

 

 

 

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd suspect of an RPG based on the Elemental lore/universe. Custom ruleset most probably.

The point in the timelime wouldn't be important to me. Something like a prequel could be cool too!

With a breathtaking world to explore.

With lots of ancient dungeons to loot.

Featuring epic battles.

With innovative skill sytem.

And most importantly, story driven with great depth of character and factions relations/interactions.



Repetitive first person slashers with a pathetic excuse as campaing, like Oblivion, are not welcome.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

First of all, I'd love to see an RPG where we could host our own worlds/shards, similar to Neverwinter Nights' linux server.  Except with the added feature that shards can be easily linked together.  User worlds maybe could be molded as part of the game client as well, rather than having to be created in a complex level designer.  Would be a neat experiment in a kind of MMO gameplay.

Second, it would be nice to see an RPG with some kind of extensibility built into the gameplay.  As well as a game no afraid to let game elements really stack on top of each other and get a lot of interplay.  Nowadays, game makers just refuse to let the rules systems reach a certain amount of features.  It isn't necessarily complexity as it is just simply breadth and scope.
I want deep rules systems, a large and detailed class tree (similar to FFTactics jobs that unlock the further you go).  Maybe some regularly released new classes and abilities similar to how Cavedog did with Total Annihilation.

If the game is written correctly with the right background in information systems theory behind it, these kinds of things would not only rock the community's world, but also give it a good solid lease on life.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Stardock is a small studio, creating their own rpg system and then creating a game around this would probably be too complicated and still be a complex and really good system. Probably why The Witcher was more of a H&S game (game mechanics wise; otherwise a really great storytelling game) and why Obsidian made NWN2 and not something of their own.

 

Bioware could only now afford to do something of their own that they got a huge company like EA to finance them.

Even Drakensang is a RPG made on an existing pnp system.

 

Blizzard could afford to create their own system for Diablo, but again that is more of an action game.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 16
and why Obsidian made NWN2 and not something of their own.
Except for Alpha Protocol (and the canned Aliens RPG, as much as it can count), Obisidan is always like: "Someone approaches me to do a sequel of...". No choices about NwN 2 anywhere beyond what Atari wanted.

Drakensang is made of an existing PnP for that of being a famous PnP system somewhere (Germany and somehwere else, my ignorance in the topic is not small I admit) and it being some kind of adaptation.

The only big thing about using licenses is that it creates interests by fans of it. The developer still has to hack and slash the system to make it work in the computer (see differences in some feats for NwN and D&D 3, just to mention one). Custom system may be more difficult or not. You don't need the uber system that allows uber combos of doom and that stuff. Plus, the great advantage is that it's "free" and gives total freedom about what to do and what not to do with it and its ramifications in the game (like having some decent diplomacy/interaction system... which D&D is not so really suited for beyond the "maximize Diplomacy and invest in some Charisma and a Nymph Cloack" routine)

That said... it sucks that the first 4th D&D game is a MMO. And by Cryptic. There is hope for a second that is good and singleplayer. With good reputated developer.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

No, using already created, tested and established RPG systems make the job for developers of the cRPG easier.

Paizo created Pathfinder which was based on the 3.5e and still needed more then a year to finish it and test is (and were using open beta to use the community to help them with this).

A computer game that wants to use a more complex RPG system needs to use a established one to conserve time/money or make a more simple and Hack&Slash based.

All my examples show us this. Even Morrowind/Oblivion is a more simple rpg system based on H&S.

 

You are thinking about this in a wrong way. It would be like a director making a story of the movie while filming it.

 

No you need to have basics down, and working and tested and then you can create other stuff.

Even Dragon Age is a smaller game mechanics wise then NWN1&2 or Baldur's game1&2 (and as I already said EA financed Bioware this time and we know how much money EA has).

So if we want a H&S game (possible with good storytelling like Witcher or Bloodlines) then Stardock can make their own system and build a game around it, but if we want a really rich system Stardock need to pick up an established system that has had years of testing and millions of hours of people playing it and giving feedback.

 

By the way, I didn't hear of any 4e D&D MMO. Link?

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 18
No, using already created, tested and established RPG systems make the job for developers of the cRPG easier.
No it's not. See my previous post for reasoning.

Paizo created Pathfinder which was based on the 3.5e and still needed more then a year to finish it and test is (and were using open beta to use the community to help them with this).

A computer game that wants to use a more complex RPG system needs to use a established one to conserve time/money or make a more simple and Hack&Slash based.

All my examples show us this. Even Morrowind/Oblivion is a more simple rpg system based on H&S.

You seem to be under the impression that this is a bad thing. That is false. the "complexity" in the d20 system is not an advantageous thing, it is merely a mess. Even the Elder Scrolls system is simpler, as you say, and it allows for the same sorts of things. Just about every successful system on the tabletop is simpler, and most allow for more varied actions. I can think of no exception.

You are thinking about this in a wrong way. It would be like a director making a story of the movie while filming it.

No you need to have basics down, and working and tested and then you can create other stuff.

Feel free to support this statement with reasoning.

Even Dragon Age is a smaller game mechanics wise then NWN1&2 or Baldur's game1&2 (and as I already said EA financed Bioware this time and we know how much money EA has).

So if we want a H&S game (possible with good storytelling like Witcher or Bloodlines) then Stardock can make their own system and build a game around it, but if we want a really rich system Stardock need to pick up an established system that has had years of testing and millions of hours of people playing it and giving feedback.

This is false. It is entirely possible to make a rich system from scratch. While in theory it would probably not be robust as a system that has had the advantage of three editions behind it, it does have the ability to be altered easily and fundamentally as the fanbase breaks bits (see: Elemental's modular rewrites as opposed to the editions used by tabletop RPGs). Since it is Stardock, and not somebody else, we know this will actually happen.

By the way, I didn't hear of any 4e D&D MMO. Link?

He's just trolling. People compare 4e to MMOs to troll a lot. Apparently MMOs also use the power system? Pay it no heed, anyway.

The irony, of course, is that with all its interrupts 4e would take much more modification to adapt to a computer format than 3.x ever has.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 14

With innovative skill sytem.

Agreed. I want to see a skill system that offers players dramatic new strategies for resolving quests and tactical battles. Here are five examples where investing skill points can give a PC new options for adventuring. (assumes use of Pathfinder OGL ruleset - the open gaming license allows a developer to use the core mechanics (and modify them as they wish) and pay no license fees, though they do have to mention the originator in the credits)

Example 01: Acrobatics (formerly Jump and Balance)

Most PC based RPGs (NWN1, NWN2, Witcher, DA) ignore the acrobatic skill set when it can offer so much. What if your character could jump, really jump with a sizable investment in its acrobatic skill.

Imagine this:

  1. PC uses acrobatics skill to leap over a 10 foot wide river of lava. (DC10)
  2. PC uses acrobatics to walk a tightrope walk accross an alligator infested moat. (DC20)
  3. PC uses acrobatics to leap over a stone wall. (Hard yes, but not impossible with boots of jumping) (DC36)
  4. PC uses acrobatics to cross a moat by jumping from one rock to another. (DC10)
  5. PC uses acrobatics skill to safely move along a narrow ledge in a sewer (DC5). None acrobatically skilled sewer explorers may slip into the digusting sewage and find that most other NPCs will not speak to them for 24 hours (until the smell is gone; i.e. the characters "really stink").

Example 02: Lingistics (formerly Language and Forgery)

Hack and slash is usually the only option for dealing with monsters who do not speak common. With linguistics you have another option - if you speak their racial language you can use your bluff, intimidate or diplomacty skills on them. It also allows you to read ancient tomes in that other less skilled PCs can't and allows your character to craft forged documents.

  1. PC uses knowledge of Infernal language to intimidate salamanders (Fire elementals) to allow them passage.
  2. PC uses knowledge of Giant to bluff their way past a pair of Hill Giant guards
  3. PC uses Linguistics skill to decipher a tome written in an ancient language
  4. PC uses Linguistics skill to craft a forged document the PC party can use to see the prisoner in the dungeon.

Implementation?

  1. For every skill point in lingustics a PC can choose another language to know (i.e. Aquan, Demonic, Dwarven, Giant, Undercommon, etc.)
  2. Every intelligent creature knows a language or two (or three)
  3. A character that knows a language known by the target creature can attempt to engage that create in a conversation. If you don't know a creature's language you can't use any charisma based skill against that creature (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate).
  4. Forgery - when you forge a letter it has a secret forgey rating (D20+ skill). This forged item is used during a conversation. If the forgery rating is greater than the target's perception rating the forgery works. A forgery can only be used once and can only be crafted if you have a related sample document (if you don't have a sample its a -5 penalty to the forgery ratng). The game has 5 types of documents (Invitation, Message, Delivery, Prisoner, etc.) that a player can forge and the correct document must be used or the forgery is spotted. Example: If you use a forged "message" to see the Lord of the castle the forgery may succeed.

Example 03: Swim

Most RPG PC games have water barriers that force a PC to find a bridge to cross the water. But what if a PC could swim?

  1. While your party members attack the trolls guarding a bridge from the front, your PC swims the river to attack them from behind.
  2. The drawbridge to the keep is raised up night, but your PC can swim the moat to knock out the guards and lower the bridge to allow the remaining party members to cross.
  3. A shipwreck lies off-shore, A PC can swim out to explore it.
  4. Facing a horde of orcs with a river to your back, just swim away. The orcs will not follow and you escape to safety, if you can swim.

Swim implementation? Its relatively simple. You have three types of terrain - shallow water, deep water and rough water. While swimming you can't use scrolls and combat attacks suffer a -4 terrain penalty. If you fail a swim check while movng through deep water (DC10) or rough water (DC15) your character makes a number of drowning checks equal to 1 + your consitution bonus. Fail all checks and your character downs. You have the option to drop armor, weapons or inventory before each drowning check to reduce your armor check penalty. You have new spells (water breathing, walk on water), new feats (Expert Swimmer), Swim Like A Frog (Druid Shape Change Feat), and magical items (helm of water breathing, potion of water breathing) to help those less skilled in swimming. 

Example 04: Perform

Perhaps the least used skill is perform, though its use can open up dramatic new opportunities for the "Bard class" player character if enhanced.

  1. Drums of panic are more effective when used by a character skilled in perform as they affect (1d10+ Perform Skill) levels of creatures.
  2. Characters with a high perform reputation receive invitations to events where they can meet high level NPCS and gain access to new quests.
  3. The King and Queen will grant an audience to a PC with a high perform reputation
  4. An outstanding performance provides a temporary bonus to diplomacy skill checks

Perform reputation? Each time you use your Perform Skill to give a peformance in a tavern you have a chance to earn money and increase your perform reputation. Reach a reputation of 20 and you start to receive invitations from notable PCs. Give a good performance and your reputation goes up and you earn some coin. Give a really bad performance, your reputation goes down and you can't perform there for a month. (PS Your perform reputation declines by 1 a month, so you need to keep performing to maintain your reputation). You can give a performance once a day in a public establishment.

Implementation?

The character enters an inn and chooses the command Perform. Based on the resulting Perform DC check below his perform reputation may change and he hears the audience's response; lots of clapping, clapping, a little clapping or dead silence.

DC 0 = Really bad performance, -2 perform reputation, can't perform here for 30 days
DC 5 = Bad performance, -1 perform reputation, can't perform here for 10 days
DC 10 = Okay performance
DC 20 = Good Performance, +1 perform reputation
DC 25 = Outstanding Performance, +2 perform reputation

Example 05: Knowledge (Religion)

Who has invested in the knowledge skills - practically no one, and they are not included in PC based games such as NWN1 & 2 or Dragon Age. Yet, if tweaked these knowledge skills coulf offer players unique advantages.

Take Knowledge (religion). Though many players choose a deity as part of game setup few have any knowledge about their beliefs. You encounter other clerics and are oblivious to the effects of their religion other than the fact that they are friendly or are enemies. So lets, spice it up a bit.

  1. Each character begins the game with a paragraph about his or her selected deity in their journal.
  2. For each skill point in Knowledge (Religion) a paragraph about another randomly selected deity is added to your journal.
  3. If you encounter a cleric, a character with Knowledge (Religion) has a chance to see a tool tip that identifies the deity of the cleric and his domains. This will also open up new conversation paths and give the PC an advantage when dealing with this cleric.
  4. A PC can use the Knowledge (Religion) skill to reveal the deity behind the inscriptions on tomb walls. Example, a non-skilled character hovers over a coffin and sees - "Coffin", a character skilled in Knowledge (Religion) inspects a coffin and sees "Coffin for a follower of Orcus, demon lord of the Undead."
  5. PC with Knowledge (Religion) has a chance to see the weaknesses of undead or outsider creatures in combat. Example: select a Lava Demon and a successful Knowledge (Religion) DC20 skill check reveal that " Lava demons are immune to fire and harmed by electricity."
  6. For a cleric Knowledge (Religion) can open up opportunities to advance in the church heirarchy and provide a bonus to diplomacy when interacting with other clerics of your deity.  A Level 8 cleric with 12+ ranks in Knowledge (Religion) can select Prestige Class: Bishop and gain a temple that increases in size, elegance and staffing as your character advances in this prestige class.  The temple might even gain the protection of a minor angel.
Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

AI in an RPG, is sorely lacking and makes replayability too predictable.

Though there are 3 levels of AI that an RPG could incorporate; all that I have played only have the first one the tactical battle AI.

  • Level 1 - Tactical Battle AI
  • Level 2 - Dungeon AI - for some dungeon defenders (not all)
  • Level 3 - Major NPC AI - for the few powerful NPCs

What is a Dungeon AI? Its an AI that co-ordinates the response of a dungeon encounter to an adventurer intrusion. This AI controls strategic response, unit placement, unit alert response, preparation and unit tactics for intelligent creatures. A Dungeon AI makes each visit to a dungeon a new adventure.

Example: PC visits dungeon of a goblin tribe, slay a lot of goblins, and leave to heal before they venture further into the dungeon. How does the Dungeon AI respond? If the PCs wait too long before returning they may be very surprised for the AI has used the time to prepare for their return.

  1. Strategic Response - Does the NPC AI order an abandonment of the complex? If they AI suffered high casualties it may temporarily abandon the dungeon only to return later. Or the big boss make take his surviving minions and reinforce another dungeon.
  2. Unit Preparation - Does the NPC AI attempt to recruit new creatures to defend their complex? Ogres or Hobgoblins perhaps? Does the AI place new traps in the dungeon? Does the AI heal the wounded? The longer the PCs are away the more time the AI has to prepare.
  3. Unit Tactics - Will the AI have its minions confront the attackers or engage in hit and run responses? Will the Big Boss fight alongside his minions?
  4. Unit Placement - Will the AI alter the location of existing creatures to surprise the party? Will it order patrols of the dungeon hallways?
  5. Unit Alerts - Will units be ordered to advise the AI of an attack so that it can respond - in waves or ambush the attackers from prepared positions. (i.e. PCs attack, one unit leaves defenders to alert other defenders).

Implementation?

Perhaps, one option is to give the AI an action point for each day the PCs are away. The AI can use the action point to execute one action. The longer the PCs are away the more actions the defending creature will have taken to prepare for there return.

  • Heal Defenders (1 pt)
  • Recruit Ogre (2 pts)
  • Recruit 4 goblins (1pt)
  • Set Trap (1 pt)
  • Prepare Ambush at Room #7 (4 points)

Major NPC AI

Some NPCs have an NPC AI. The Major NPC AI controls the development of an NPC as time passes and events occur. It controls the development of the Major NPC and his followers. It ensures that the PC must deal with major NPC that develop in varied ways. No longer does a Lord remain always a(Lvl10, HP75) NPC. Perhaps the Lord gains a level, recruits a wizard, increases his guard or becomes evil or becomes good or trigers an event that the PCs can affect.

Example: Lord Axerlon, Level 10

Game 01:

Month 6 - Uses 3 Action points to gain level - Now Level 11
Month 12 - Uses Action point to order an attack on a village. PCs have a chance to foil the attack. If they don't he gains 3 action points and uses them to 1) Recruit a Wizard (3 action points) OR 2) increase his level to level 12 OR.....

Game 02:

Month 6 - Uses 3 action points to activate Quest 4 - Theft from Mage's Tower If the PC do not solve this quest (or if they ignore it) the NPC gains 6 action points.
Month 12 - Uses 6 action points to Recruit Army  and attack neighboring barony. If the PCs do not stop the attack, the barony falls and the NPC gains 12 action points he uses to (recruit a vampire, recruit an evil cleric and increase his experience to Level 13) OR (increase his experience to level 15)

Thus, an NPC can grow in power and reputation in unpredictable ways that change with each game.

A PC that ignores an evil lord may find that the puny Level 6 lord is now a Level 20 lord surrounded by a phalanx of able minions.