Issue 5 of Teknidermy, Online Skinners Ezine, out now.

I couldn't help but be a little bit offended by this issue.

To Quote Kenray:
"With the loss of Dmod and LOS, and with the passing of Skinz.org a while back, we are left with only one Major Player in the skinning world: Deviant Art. Notably, we still have Skinbase.org and Wincustomize.com, for which we are thankful. But as far as sites with the kind of activity and data that we are all so handsomely accustomed, we are down to one"

This site has over 2000 skins. Each day, the top 10 skinners here get over 16,000 downloads. Let me put it another way, this site, even now, gets more downloads yesterday than skinz.org got on its best day ever including when the WinAqua controvery kicked up.

I think Jark would agree with me when I say that we have roughly the same number of total skins as DeviantArt (except for wallpaper which, as an art site they dwarf any site out there).

I consider DeviantArt to be a major skin site as well. But to put it in its own league and put WinCustomize in a quasi-minor league is not just unfair but a bit offensive given how much we're now having to spend on bandwidth each month. I think it is safe to say that WinCustomize is at least equal to DA in terms of overall activity.

The issue with the article that is the most problematic for me is that while Kenray is giving his opinion, if he had simply looked at the download stats here to see that the file activity here is definitely up there on par with skinz.org or DA. This isn't just an opinion, this is verifiable fact that one can see just by looking at the stats here.

For instance, Kenray really likes Coolplayer. The Coolplayer section is now 1 month old. The most popular skin for it here is Sputnik, it's been downloaded here 742 times. On DeviantArt, the most popular Coolplayer skin is also Sputnik but it's been downloaded only 393 times. That's about half as many. This is true section after section. NeXTStart section here, though only available since April, has its top 5 skins getting about twice the downloads as the top 5 at DA. Everyone who knows me knows I am a big DeviantArt fan. I've given demos of DeviantArt at shows before displaying its cool community features. It IS a major site. It has more sections, it has an incredible wallpaper area, its got a really active news section. My point is that so is WinCustomize. We have a very active message area, we get thousands of downloads per day, tons of new skins submitted each day, hundreds of thousands visitors each month.

And when the semi-official news magazine of the community states that DA is "the major site" and then there's the rest of us, it gives a real disservice to other sites, particularly when some of those sites are at least as busy as DA and I think it's safe to say that on a skin-specific basis

The article finishes with:
"If something were to happen to DA, where would "we" be?"

It's hard to not feel a little bit slighted by the article.

If WinCustomize isn't on par with DA, then I think Kenray needs to explain what he uses as his criteria. I found his article to be very divisive.

You are entitled to your opinion,Frogboy.Kenray,I suspect,intended no disrepect to Wincustom, and am sure he will answer for himself, as editor.
I post now because you replied under my post of 1st July,announcing Issue 5 of Teknidermy,on 3rd July 2001,a gap of 2 whole days. Apart from 2 posts on main index page here, both I might add by other Tek staff members, no other comments have been posted at wincustom message board,whilst,last time I checked at Deviantart this morning, there were 15.
Teknidermy too costs money to keep the site/s running, and I pay the bill out of my own pocket.
Why should I continue, when noone at Wincustom has bothered to comment,either good, bad or indifferent? Looks like it will be for the folks at Deviantart.Pity,'cos I considered wincustom to be my home skin site, after the demise of skinz.org

Jumbles I for one love Teknidermy. I just don't usually comment on anything unless I have something worthwhile to say. I would imagine a lot of people read it and enjoy it but just don't mention the fact.

Now to the matter in hand.

I believe Kenray may be classing wincustomize as different because it does not try to cater for every skinnable application out there like the other sites do/did. It concentrates on the main ones (although there are more being added now with the demise of Deskmod). So where would those people who skin for those applications go? Nowhere or wincustomize or a lesser well known site. They would only come to wincustomize if it provided them with somewhere to upload skins for those smaller/lesser well known apps.

I am not trying to start a discussion of whether to add lots of sections to wincustomize or not. I believe the way they are being added is fine.

So are responses to news items the criteria for a skin site? It was my view that skin sites were there to trade skins. The message area here is fairly active.

I spent 2 hours putting together the June stats for the site and made a news item. No one commented on them. But I'm pretty sure plenty of people read it.

Skinz.org didn't allow posting to the news items until the very end. And its message board was occasionally very active and sometimes not active at all, much like here.

Not even DA though has sections for every program out there, Skinbase has more sections than any of these sites.

But if you want Tek to be a DeviantArt-only publication, that can be arranged. We do, afterall, directly link to your articles from here. Perhaps you should look at your web site logs and see where your monthly referrals come from. I think you'd find that WinCustomize represents the largest portion each month.

If you look over on the left, we have a specific Tek section. Odds are we are responsible for a great deal of your traffic, more so than any other single site. Yet according to Tek, Wincustomize isn't a major skin site.

"If WinCustomize isn't on par with DA, then I think Kenray needs to explain what he uses as his criteria. "

Per request, i will now clarify my criteria:

Skin site: a site devoted to skins, & skinning, without regard to download or upload count; a website devoted to the art of skinning, en toto.

While i have a love for this site, and a respect for it's interaction in the community, it cannot stand in the same class with Deviant or even Skinbase, because it does not attempt to.

It has been made clear form the start that WC woudl be a "portal" site, and only hold sections for the very most pouplar and most oft downloaded apps.



I, for one, would love to see a complete collection of skins here. MMJB, Greybook, quicknotes, Coordpad, ...need I go on? If you will allow, adn support this site becoming more than a "portal" please start now.

"The article finishes with:
"If something were to happen to DA, where would "we" be?"

I thought it was made quite clear in the article that the "we" in question is all of us active skinners. Not just the ones doing windowblinds and winamp, but all of us. Even the newbies skinning Beatnik, and playing with Hotbar and the like. What have you for them here?

Brad, y'know i love ya, and I love this site, and this art. So PLEASE, step up to the plate you want to eat off of, and take the Big Bite.

Put up a section for every skinnable application, no matter how "fringe" or "unpopular". Allow your registered users to pick which secitons they like, or to hide empty sections (Scarebear over at Skinbase could pass some code snippets i'm sure, as his site already has this option).

BE All That You Can Be, Please. This community needs that so much more than ever, right now.

And trust that my article is not meant to slight anyone. It is simply the truth, as i see it before me, at the moment.

"If you look over on the left, we have a specific Tek section. " I see an "articles" section. Now we are getting into reactionary talk. I woudl stongly suggest a littel bit of "cooling off" and consideration of whats been laid before you.

"if you want Tek to be a DeviantArt-only publication, that can be arranged." Tek is a community magazine, and as you may or may not know, we lend articles to skinbase, two hip dudes, and others. We go right round the world, even unto Japan (http://www.interq.or.jp/jupiter/philsci/iw-html-teknidermy/draft-02-01-interview-Masatoshi-Ueji.html). This kind of language is uncalled for, especially here.

We publish again in 8 weeks. I will look forward to writing a long article about how Wincustomize stepped up to the plate and batted a home run, and i will begin the article with this thread....

We have sections for virtually every remotely popular skinnable program. There are roughly 20 sections here already. DeviantArt doesn't have sections for every app either btw, Skinbase does.

We have sections for Beatnik, Colorpad and even Kewlpad now (which you seemed to have missed Beatnik).

So where do you draw the line? You say Skinbase doesn't count according to you even though it has more sections than any other skin site.

Perhaps your response is that Skinbase's sections don't get enough traffic to count. But then many of DA's sections on popular apps don't get that much traffic either.

The problem really is that your opinion doesn't seem in touch with the community you want to serve. You argue that WinCustomize isn't in the same league as DeviantArt even though more people choose WinCustomize to download the skins for the main applications.

Ever see the movie "You've got mail"? I feel like we're the Fox Books and you're a fan of "the shop around the corner" and you're not willing to admit that Fox Books is a "real" books store.

If you want to have a magazine that is more of a "club" for you and your hand picked friends, that's fine. But we really can't consider Teknidermy a "Community" webzine if it's going to set up arbitrary, touchy feely vague definitions of what a major skin site is.

Skinz.org owned the skin site community and for most of its existence it only had the apps that "made it". Only in the last several months did they start to add a ton of apps and even then they didn't come close to having all of them.

I think to most people, a major skin site is a site in which a large number of people (where "large" is defined by consensus) go to get their skins, icons, and themes. I think it's very very unfortunate that you would try to politicize what a "major" skin site is.

A person may not like the "stuff" on ABC or NBC but they are still major television networks. A person may not feel they cover enough topics but that doesn't make them minor entities. That's because a sufficiently large number of people choose to watch what is on those networks.

Adding 120 sections for programs that have no skins, are not longer developed or have virtually no user base may make a tiny minority of people feel good but for the average user, it's just clutter. Moreover, I submit that the number of sections is not as important as the activity of the ones it has.

Are the vast majority of people into skinning served by the sections of this site? Yes.

Are, to use your words, people getting a high level of activity from submitting their skins? Yes.

Is this site getting roughly equal or more visitors per month than the site(s) you list as "major" sites. Yes.

You listed Deskmod as a major site and David listed their stats. Based on those stats, I cna say that WinCustomize is definitely in terms of number of people, up with Deskmod.

So if the only reason you put WinCustomize into a different category is based on raw quantity of sections, then I say that's a strawman argument. One that you yourself don't agree with because SkinBase has more sections than any of these sites and you list them as a minor site too.

WinCustomize fits the bill of a major *skin* site. I find it baffling that you would close your eyes to this reality. It's a site with skin sections for most of the most popular apps. It gets hundreds of thousands of visitors each month. Many millions of page views. More *skin* submission than any other site. More *skin* downloads per day than any other site. Download counts DO matter because they represent the number of people a skin author is reaching.

If skin users aren't part of the community, what community is Teknidermy serving?

I don't understand. wincusto isn't a major skin site? I see 1000s of skins up on the left with 1000s of people downloading. I use ICQPlus and Windowblind and this place has the most skins with more new ones than anywhere.

This is politics at its most rank. A classic example of journalists trying to push their views under the guise of facts. Kenray's saying either put up sections for everything under the sun or I'll use my zine as a blunt instrument to make WC look like a second class webizen. Sorry Kenray, I'm not buying it. If I wanted to read propaganda there are a lot more entertaining places to read it from.

Come on folks, this is pathetic. "My site is bigger than yours!" Does it matter which is the biggest site? Or to quote someone we all know (who will probably kill me for this):


"what happened to skinning and having fun? all these ppl fighting over who's site is better and Bigger etc. I don't remember this stuff when I was hanging out at skinz.org as my past time, was I blind???"


Think about that.

the arguments on skinz.org were the best part!

crae i don't see it an argument on whose biggest. it's rank snobbery. is wc or da the biggest site? i dunno and don't care. but teknidermy saying that wc isn't in the same leagaue as da is snobbery. kenrays post says that wc isn't even a skin site. give me a break. download and upload counts sure as hell matter if yer trying to say what is a 'major' or 'minor' site.

Ooohyea a juicy discussion finally. I'm still waiting for Kenray to define a major site. Is he seriously trying to say that WinCustomize isn't a skin site at all? Sorry Teknidermy, when you start to throw the word 'major' around then numbers of uploads and downloads to matter.

When a nobody like me gives an opinion it's just me. But Teknidermy is the self proclaimed official skin webzine. Saying WinCustomize isn't a major skin site isn't an opinion, it's an error.

Jumbles: See now your post is finally getting the attention it deserves!

Opinions, taken out of context and what not. *sniff* Oh yes, I can feel it coming...

/me goes to bed dreaming of the flame that awaits tomorrow

Guys, please try to keep the temperature of this discussion mild okay?

Too many potentially constructive discussions on the Internet turn into pointless arguing.

Frank: I don't think Kenray was attempting with his column to use his webzine as a tool of propaganda.

Believe me, I know how hard it can be to move having my writings representing only me to representing a collective.

Kenray has his own opinion on what a skin site is. An opinion that is, in my view, out of step with the vast majority of people who create and use skins.

I tend to use analogies to illustrate something. In my view, Kenray's argument is akin to saying that Download.com isn't a major download site because it doesn't have sections for Amiga, C-64, Apple II, OS/2, BeOS, etc.

It would probably not be an exageration to say that this site has sections that support over 99% of the types of things people customize:

ICQPlus, WinAmp, WindowBlinds, IconPackager, Wallpapers by themselves probably represent 90% of the skinning activities that occur.

Everything else, including our other apps, would be in that last 9%.

The other programs out there, some of which those of us who are "hard core" know very well (like Talsiman 2.0 which is looking nice), would fall into that last 1%.

The fact is, upload and download counts do matter. There is no hiding from this. If you're a site whose primary purpose is to distribute files that allow you to skin software, then your site is a skin site. If your site gets enough traffic, it is a major site.

We all agree that Deskmod and Skinz.org were major skin sites. Since this site gets at least as much traffic in terms of users, downloads, uploads, etc. as those two sites, then this site by definition is also a major skin site.

Now, to the crux of my original post, the reason it bothered me so much was that after we just committed to spending an additional $100k on this site in the next 18 months, it's a bit..off putting to have the webzine who almost certainly gets more referrals from here than any other site to declare us to be a site of a lesser class than DeviantArt.

And it's also bad for Teknidermy. Kenray and Jumbles can debate this as much as they'd like but I think in the final analysis, it's absurd to argue that WinCustomize isn't a major skin site on par with Skinz.org, DA, Deskmod, etc. The number of sections is really immaterial after a certain threshold. What that threshold is, I can only speak for myself. But I don't think many people would agree that a site needs to have every skinnable app known to man in order to qualify as a true skin site.

Jumbles, I'd already read the issue prior to your post, so I hadn't commented.

Kenray, I think that if you are to make editorial comments which may be perceived as contentious, you might want to at least stress 'these comments are the opinions of the author, and are meant with no disrespect....etc...etc...'

I spend about 95% of my time online, split between these two sites....WC and DA, because, between them they cater for pretty-well all my needs....but that is purely my opinion/preference, and in no way is a slight on LOS or DM [rip] or any others.
OK, when LS.net gets back up, it'll be a three-way split....

Of course...sometimes I feel I just spend 95% of my time online, period.....

what happend to the layout of the site???

what community is Teknidermy serving?
by Admin Frogboy - 7/3/2001 5:13:59 PM

I believe it is to serve the whole skinning community Brad w/ "alittle pass time reading" geared towards skinning etc.

however so far since it's release all I've ever noticed is it serving as something to read and look for flaws in...

Kenrays comment I think was taken out of context and you know exactly what he meant and he would never say anything w/ the intent to put you or wincusto down.

DA has a vast variety app list, wincusto has "at this time" a limited app list... he meant nothing more "I believe"

/me runs off to pinch crae

skinning has certainly grown into a monster that is not too attractive these days...
hopefully it will morph into somethin better soon...

Listen to Doreen,.. she tends to hit the ball in situations where people get a little overheated.

sorry but kenray clearly says that this site can't be considered a major site because it doesn't have every last skin section possible here. and you say he is serving the community? not if you read between the lines. he says in his post that download&upload count don't matter. download count represents a person interesting in skinning to spend time downloading something for it. but if they don't matter then what does?

kenray's words are there to be read. he speaks of activity, not sheer quantity of categories. 19 sections is a lot of sections. i lived on skinz.org and now i live here.

Doreen,

How can someone take Kenray's comment ouf of context. He says straight out that WinCustomize isn't a "major player" in the skin community. If that isn't the case, who are all these people using the megabits of bandwidth over here?

I think Brad's point which I totally concur on is that Kenray's statement was an off handed admission of his own private views on what the community is all about. To say that WinCustomize isn't a major player in the "skinning world" is ludicrous. It sure doesn't help Teknidermy's credibility. I know Brad and I can tell ya that he wishes WinCustomize wasn't a major player. The bandwidth costs here are getting gigantic. I'm not even involved with the site and can feel the kick in the teeth when the editor of the main webzine for skinning dismisses the rather massive activity going on here. Sorry but when ya get a quarter million visitors per month, you're a major player no matter what the topic is.

Tandis
Kenrays "words" were interpeted one way, which is how it read on the screen.... true that hehe
(I understand that)

"I" however interpeted his "feelings" behind his words!

I still believe it had to do w/ the skinnable app list over here, which has been the focus of attention from day one when wincusto opened.

again not my business and I'm off to more constructive things than worrying about who is a major player, cuz I care less... hehe

I just care about Brad and Kenray

Damn, does every posted thread here have to turn into, a "Frogathon?"
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Please Brad Take the chip off, and relax a little bit, and stop being so Dang, defensive. It gets old, real quick. It gets to that I don't even want to read the remotest controversial threads, for fear that your feelings might be offended, your Site 'dissed, or something or other has done a number in your post-toasties. I ask you this... Is this a skinning site or a place for you to justify yourself, over and over to the Skinning World?

Crap now there's a lesson for ya...
anything with greater than's and less than's gets stripped...
And all my witty remarks are gone..
Now I look just a fool...
CRAP!!!

Oi, metababble. Reminds me of another site.

Cygnus, personal attacks are not allowed here and we do censor them (just as we do on the stardock news server). You are free to not like my writing style but posts whose content primarily involve attacking the messenger that have nothing to do with the topic at hand will be deleted (which is one reason why the message board is relatively clear of personal flame wars).

BTW, having been one of the first people on skinz.org, I can assure you that my response to the Tek article is little different than how Toasty would have react had circumstances been similar. Similarly, I firmly believe Jark would have taken issue if the roles were reversed as well.

If you don't like my writing style though you are free to go elsewhere. I know that I sure don't want people who resort to personal abuse hanging out here and would love to see those who would rather attack the messenger rather than the message go elsewhere.

Aww, this thread is so cute.

/me pinches everyone's cheeks