Teleport isn't over-powered because the AI doesn't use it, it's over-powered because it does too much -- it obviates too much strategy/tactics (my previous post lists some of these things).

Making an over-powered feature available to all does not 'fix' it. It still breaks the other features one would otherwise be using.

You need to compare 'within', not just 'between', to achieve balance

The over-powered teleport takes things away from the game (see my list).  Balancing teleport adds to, not subtracts from, the game.   Over-powered teleport creates an Elemental-lite game, devoid of much strategic and tactical depth the game would otherwise have.

There's the N-word again -- 'nerf'.  The correct, non-perjorative word is 'balance'.

The nerf-word is as misused/overused as the whine-word... and bodes equally poorly for the quality of any resultant discussion.

Teleport (as it was) would still be unbalanced for the reasons I've already mentioned.  Having the AI use the unbalanced teleport as often as a human wouldn't address it being over-powered.  The reasons it's over-powered still exist, and the cost to the game still exists.

What costs?

Teleport as it was was so good that other strategies/tactics were rendered second-class.  Elemental became more one-dimensional.  It became more akin to a FPS than a TBS.

Having the AI ape the human players only makes that worse.

Balancing teleport does not preclude what you describe, it makes it more viable and rewarding to pull off.  I think it also makes it harder in that there's more depth to master, but that just makes mastering it more rewarding.

Balance isn't just amongst players, it has to exist within the game's systems.  Having one facet so over-powering that other options are overshadowed is not balance and is not good game design, especially when said over-powered facet is the quick&easy no-brainer way to do things.

Obviously my arguments are lost on you, as yours are on me, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

 

Ok, I agree that teleportation is  powerful, but not "over-powered." Teleportation in-and-of-itself won't win the game for you, whether it cost 0 mana or 10,000 mana to use.

Tiger tanks could be destroyed, and so was the Yamato.

 

Ok, the analogy is close but not quite right since the teleport does in fact cost 15 now. A sovereign isn't going to get much beyond 15 mana early game unless he doesn't imbue, so the analogy is: "teleporting a bunch of tiger tanks minus their 88mm ammunition".

From another angle: it takes 15 turns to regnerate mana, you should easily be able to get your sovereign moving 4 or 5 with buffs (boots of travelling AT 10 bucks a pop is one easy way). 15 mana = 15 turns regenerating = 120 squares of movement on the board on caravan roads at 4mp or 150 with a 5mp soverign (this is how far I can move while simultaneously retaining my mana while you have to "regenerate" lost mana).

I play on large maps, ridiculous setting, I probably only average 4 or 5 teleports the entire game since they've nerfed mana at 15/pop. It's just not a game breaking spell to me. Like I said, I agree that it's a powerful spell, but it's definitely not "over" powerd. If the AI were programmed competantly, it would take advantage of an army that has just teleported to the border & crossed by moving a stronger army with archers to take advantage of the now "mana-low" attack force & target the spellcasters with archers. A second follow-up attack (assuming the first archer attack failed) that can now take complete advantage of the attacking force which should be lacking many if not all its spellcasters and can finish it off with spellcasters of its own would be wonderful & probably beyond the capability of AI programming (but that's what *should* happen).

Losing 15 mana a pop is huge. Teleport is limited to "controlled" areas as well, so you still have to build a strong enough army to do the job, which surprisingly easy in this game even if there were no teleport at all. You're not going to have the "world wide" coverage to teleport your entire strike force onto the Normandy beach which you alluded to, becacause you don't control anything on Normandy. You'll still have to fight for at least one town the old fashioned way. In this game, on a large map, to get the most out of teleport you'll still need to take cities on opposite ends of the map, you can't teleport in "uncontrolled" areas. I just use two different armies to do the same thing silmultaneously instead of moving only one "killer stack" to point A, conquering, teleporting to site C in between A & B (but as close as I can get to point and then moving off to attack B. It works out the same way in the end, but I conserve mana with my method.

In a multiplayer game, the guy that uses teleport a lot is going to be the guy that loses (assuming everything else is equal) because he will be out of mana all the time when he needs it (unless he "cheats" or "hacks" the code). The guy with multiple strong armies, a huge road network, and a fast "horse archer" reserve force that can quickly reinforce against any "teleport attack" will be the guy that wins because he'll conserve mana & use it when he really needs it, or better yet "bluff" or "feint" the other players into using up their mana via unecessary teleportation.

The way the game is now, there's an artificial cap to where mana is useful because you cannot regenerate fast enough. What does it matter if you have 300 mana wizard but currently only 30 essence? Are you going to sit around for 100 turns in an essence chapel (whatever the hell it's called) to regenerate 200 mana? I wouldn't. 15mana cost for teleportation, when you get nothing but movement in return, is not just worth it. You still have to fight for those cities. Teleport doesn't guarantee you'll get them or even win the ensuing battle. At least "firestorm" will help you win a battle and take that city, teleport is just a huge expensive spell that guarantees nothing in return; sure you'll be able to take the cities you plan on attacking, but not because teleport is "overpowered" rather because the AI is "too weak".

Nope.

I can easily get my sov to significantly more than 15 mana fairly early in the game, so the analogy is "teleporting 11 fully functional tiger tanks plus a perhaps 2/3 power Yamato (the Sov, and since the stack is 12, 11 tigers)".

I'm sorry, but

 

Being able to instantly move a super-stack anywhere you've seen is "...nothing but movement..."?!?!  That's like saying flanking is nothing but movement, or hitting a foe where they're not is nothing but movement.

It's like saying a tiger tank is nothing but steel.

Your "...nothing but movement..." is only that if one is unskilled (I consider myself pretty unskilled at this stuff).  To anyone with a modicum of skill it's a lot, and in a TBS game where skill is hopefully encouraged/rewarded, it's the difference between ok and great.

Obviously we have different concepts of what makes a TBS game great.

@CrazyHarlequin  don't count out your strategy yet, as we won't know how a global mana pool will affect this.

@trcanberra     "First time I've started such an interesting debate" -- thanks! 

Nice reference & The Bismark along with them.