Soz Stardock, I tried to like it, I really really really tried.

from Elemental Forums

1st and only post so no need for all the fanboys to get their nickers in a knot trying to convert another blind man to their light. I just feel like I spent so long eagerly anticipating this game that I gotta make a goodbye post.

I loved Stardock and Brad's vision. The concept the gamer's bill of rights was particularly great. Great enough that I felt inspired to get Impulse and spent mebbe about $1000 on games through there instead. I enjoyed GC a lot and your affiliated games like Sins. None were great like Civ4 great, UFO great, MoM great, AoE great, etc. but they were solid games - kudos.

I was particularly looking forward to Elemental more than anything in a long time. I get into games for 2-8 years - spent 10,000 hours plus hobby modding on NWN over 8 years for example and Civ4 for same length, I had pegged Elemental as that next game. Perhaps wrongly - but Stardocks - Brad's - your messages got through and given the reputation you seemed to have earned, I was inspired and ready.

Prepaid Elemental and it was - of course for me as well - a disappointment and a joke. The fanboys on the forums and the guys giving it 10/10 almost make me angry. Almost - it's hard to imagine people get more behind games than me, but clearly there's heaps on them. I feel pity for each in this instance.

I gave it a few patches to look for a glimmer of potential - I hoped for what seemed impossible - I spent only an hour today playing 1.836. There was no way to spend more time because it's simply too boring. For someone with 3 kids and 2 jobs who can spend 6 hours that should be spent sleeping planting single strands of grass carefully to make a map look better, boring should not be a risk. I can spend days on Capitalism or playing Australia on Hearts of Iron. But I can't even feel inspired to craft a properly witty and insulting 'fuck you goodbye post'.

Because I've never been so tremendously bored. I'm done with Elemental. Stardock spent their entire reputation for me not just in this game, but in how the myriad of random posts on the forums make it look like you have zero vision for this game and need every wankers opinion on the entire internet to make any decisions about how a game should be. An alien concept to me because every game I've created I've known every detail of my vision to to straps. I don't know what the hell you are thinking.

Impule is starting to shit me too - definately influenced by all these embarrassing posts Brad and SD representatives and the blind-core fans are making. But little things like now you are e-mailing me to tell me to buy MoO2 because I get MoO 1 for free with it. Really really dumb kind of advertising that tells people you think they are morons. Disappointing - all of it. Just simply, disappointing decisions. The passion is gone at SD I guess.

And rightly so - for me too. I must say though, I got something out of all this. I enjoyed discovering GOG from links in the forums and I enjoyed Kings Bounty AP, & Elven Legacy pack linked from disgruntled Elementalists. Thanks for those links.

There is no point waiting for Elemental to get better because unfortunately, it is simply boring at every single level possible. How it looks and sounds, the early game, the mid game, the late game, researching spells, techs, tactical combat, spell effects, special effects, city building, champion building, unit designing, modding and map constructing (I spent 6 horus building a large map to get a feel), character creation, conquesting, defending, choosing the irrelevent difficulty setting vs the non-existent AI, every single aspect of this game is boring. It's almost impressive - to turn so many concepts into a null event.

If you actually had a vision I could imagine 3 to even as many as 5 out of these 20+ concepts becoming fun with enough time and energy spent by SD. But there clearly is no vision. And with no elements being at all fun or in any way creative or strategic or tactical, I am sad to finally admit to myself that there is no potential either.

You can keep your money. I'll take the lesson with me. The only interesting aspect to come out of Elemental. Thanks, but sorry guys, no thanks.

Goodbye.

 

 

elemental
24,164 views 18 replies
Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

+1 with MrCapitalG...

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

i stopped playing elemental 1 week ago its just too much frustration

 

now playing bloodbowl and capitalism 2 (wainting for bloodbowl LE and CIV V)

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

wah wah, another whining post. Goodbye!

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

So... you come to insult people, put yourself above that same people and feel good about yourself. Nothing new in the internets.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Hijō ni omoshiroi

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok well I can't go where the OP is going. The game lacks some serious balance. And that is because balance tweaking is something that is usually perfected last in the production process. All of the core mechanics to make this a great game are there plus the ability to mod. This was the same thing that plagued Oblivion when it was released, it was very ambitous but because they were so enveleoped in the complexity of the game they could not get an overall coehsive game balance going. That meant we ended up with a cheesy copout with leveled opponents and dungeons.

The same happened to Elemental War of Magic, there is a very serious need to tweak and rebalance everything. To me that is the most fun part of game design. Building the tools to allow you to create a balanced gameworld is the tedius part. This game was rushed(for whatever reason) I am not even going to fault or bitch about it. Games industry is tough, big upfront investment and uncertain payoff in the end. However I can see where one of the most important aspects of the game was just not tested enough - game balance.

I have no complaints about the core of the game. I could rant on and on about CTDs and some serious things that make the game unplayable. But I can't help but notice this is a gamers game. It was designed by gamers for gamers. The vision of this game is just fine, in fact it's much needed int he industry. The fact there is no copy protection, it's moddable and encouraged to be modded with, to the point of providing in game tools to mod with and an online database for mods makes it clear that the game designers are gamers and consumers of games not just corporate hacks. In a way this game is revolutionary for what it attempts to accomplish.

And even with the really bad start this game has gotten, if Stardock pulls this out it will have plenty of reputation to build on. The last thing i want is a game company who does not take the easy way out on game design to be discouraged and quit. I am frustrated with this game not because it sucks but because of the potential it has and the fact I have an unfinished version with a lot of CTDs to play instead of the finished and polished product.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Everyone has their own taste in games.  There is no shame in keeping your opinions to yourself.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

k1

 

Elemental is so fundamentally broken and poorly designed that I don't think it's possible to save it.

Good feedback will be drown out by all the retarded 4000 word posts including nine google spreadsheets explaining how 20 different types of arrows for five different types of bows is the best design decision evar.

Not like that even matters, because feedback will be ignored like it was in beta.  As Brad himself has admitted, his head was in the sand.  Newsflash:  It still is.  That's his personality, guys.  When he decides something, it's Right (tm).  When his baby gets 3/10 reviews, he says "I was wrong," then runs off to make another decision that is Right (tm) and hurriedly entrenches his head back into the sand.

Brad thinks he can design games.  He can't.  He's an engineer, not a creative individual who understands what makes games fun.  If anything proves this, it's his comment about the distribution of time required to make a game is 90% engine, 10% design time.  This is so catastrophically wrong that it deserves to be in a textbook, or maybe even added to a classic like The Mythical Man Month.

It'll be funny to see how fast this community goes dark when Civ5 comes out.  All that'll be left are the fanboi antibodies quick to shoot down any ideas that aren't in their Official Community Threads and quick to enforce a culture of cognitive dissonance where Elemental rox, guyz!  1DN is fine!  Magic is fine!  Economy is fine!  AI is fine!  The novel is great!  Just add dual wield and continue the deep, beautiful campaign and this will continue to be the greatest 4X game ever!

Since Stardock can't grow a pair and design their own game, instead turning to their fanbois to do it for them, that's exactly what this game will become.  That is, it won't change in the least.

 

Elemental deserves a place next to MOO3 for one of the worst-designed, biggest disappointments I have ever had the displeasure of being hoodwinked into buying.  

 

For shame, Stardock.  For shame.

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Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

The only major improvements I want to see is the tactical battles being refined(things like flanking, different movement speeds for units, obstacles stopping archery and so on) and AI in general. Everything else is balance tweaking and with really good mod tools the game will be around for a long time.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

No reason to come on a post a big giant goodbye. Give Stardock a few months see if they keep there word (which they always seemed to in the past) and keep adding to the game.

Right now you dont enjoy it, theres alot of changes coming, maybe you will in a few months. Maybe not.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I could not more disagree with these folks.  Maybe they have played too many games and they are burned out, maybe they don't like fantasy 4x games,.. I'm not sure. 

 

Elemental has flaws but, some of the concepts of the design are brilliant.  I's too bad they can't see that. 

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree that Elemental is broken ATM, but there are two key points I disagree with.

1.) Brad CAN design fun games.  GalCiv2 is bloody fantastic.  Perhaps my favorite 4X game to date.

2.) Elemental is not broken beyond repair.  Not even close.  In fact, I think most of the issues with the game lie in some of the fundamental math behind things like spell casting, tactical combat, and hero advancement.  Finding the right math to fix something may not always be easy, but implementation time on something like math is almost 0.

I have already come up with a solution to largely fix the bulk of tactical combat: https://forums.elementalgame.com/396804

It is up to Brad and Stardock to actually take the time to find the good solutions on the forums or come to them on their own, but people who just up and quit (like the person who started this thread) forget how dedicated Stardock has always been to their products.  I may not spend every waking moment with Elemental at the moment, and I won't until it is truly fixed, but that's no reason to throw a fit and walk away in a huff.

I'll keep checking in, I'll keep playing occasionally, and I will make suggestions when I have them.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

This game has frustrated me so much in its inability to live up to Master of Magic, that I've been inspired to quit playing Elemental infavor of going back to Master of Magic.  A nearly impossible feat considering much I love 4X games.  The amount of time spent playing the Civ series, Master of Magic, Orion, Gal Civ, etc. is immeasureable.  Basically, all you have to do is put out a mediocre 4X game and I'll put in 100's of hours playing it.

I just don't understand how a game 15 years old can blow a new game out of the water that has had the amount of time and money put behind it that Elemental has.

I've been looking forward to this game for 4 years.  Ever since I got wind of someone putting out a Master of Magic 2 and Stardock trying to get the naming rights.  I've been updating all of my friends every couple of months for years on the progress of this game.  They are also in their mid 30's and who also love 4X games and who are still playing Master of Magic to this day.  My buddies would read up on the game and I would get emails saying things like, "I'm a little concerned", and I would respond, "Yeah, I know, but I trust Stardock and Brad Wardell not to screw this up".  I have since appologized to my friends.  I feel terrible for getting them excited for this game and talking them into purchasing it.

All that would have needed to happen for Elemental to be a gigantic success would have been for it to be exactly like Master of Magic with updated graphics, updated AI, and the ability to add custom modifications.  That's it.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  If people can play a game 15 years old, then it doesn't need to be a complete overhaul.  With 1/100th of the time and resources it took to put out Elemental, they could have put out an updated version of Master of Magic and everyone would have loved it.  I just don't get it.

Yes, I know this is Elemental, and not Master of Magic 2.  But by all accounts, it was billed as the spiritual successor to MoM, the way Gal Civ was billed as the spiritual successor to Master of Orion.  A feat that they succeeded at doing in the case of Gal Civ 2.  If Elemental would have been to MoM the way Gal Civ 2 was to Master of Orion, it would be one of the most fun games I have ever played.

The epic failure of elemental makes me appreciate MoM so much more.  As I finish typing this, I'm going to fire up a game of MoM.  I think I'm going to go with 3 books of Sorcery, 2 Chaos, 1 Nature, Start on Myrran with Dark Elves.  I'll be able to get heros and equip them with artifacts.  Immagine that, being able to create artifacts for heros.  I can't believe this isn't in Elemental.  And I'll be able to cast overworld spells, like Suppress Magic.  Or maybe one of the other wizards will cast Armegeddon or Meteor Storm and I'll have to send my heros to his capital before my empire is in ruins.  Such a novel idea, overworld spells that affect all empires.  How did this not make it into Elemental.

Former Stardock and Brad Wardell zealot,

Krauser

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Christ, the drama in here is steamy.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

I can understand a lot of what you're saying, but to be honest you could have said the same without insulting the people who do enjoy the game. But I get it.

Quoting Fearzone, reply 9
Everyone has their own taste in games.  There is no shame in keeping your opinions to yourself.

Which opinions would those be? Good? Bad? You obviously are talking about bad opinions, which the OP has, since you're posting your comment here. I don't see anyone trying to stop good comments stating it's the best strategy game ever. Trying to stifle bad/negative comments is what will keep a game bad; you have to know what's bad about a game before you can make it better.