You know, the state of things is fairly off-putting...

I disagree. I think Stardock is generally getting more leadway than any other company would get, because they have the respect of players and reviewers alike. They'll still have my respect, even after Elemental, but I'm not going to suger coat this: This is one of the worst games I've ever played from a balance/gameplay design perspective.

Also, delaying the game would have resulted in a much different game, so long as people were able to playtest instead of system test.

Hmm, I do see what you mean, but I do think that more haters are flocking to Stardock than I've ever seen. Justified criticism they do very much deserve, but not the sheer attacks and such that are thrown around.

I would say, though, that the leadway Stardock is getting is leadway they deserve; they have very much earned it in my eyes.

EDIT: I also VERY VERY much appreciate how you responded in disagreement. No frothing or hate, simply putting how it is with you and in general.

Welcome to the intertubes?

 

Sad state of it is, the PA guys have this great theory about the whole deal. And thus is the nature of things. This happens everywhere, and I've seen it a hojillion times. Every game that comes out goes through this, and everyone is always righteously indignant that the game they wanted came out all buggy and unbalanced, unlike all the other games that came out before... until the next game comes out in the same state that they then commit to the same ranting and raving about.

 

It's the internet. When one is anonymous, they tend to be jerks about things. The kinds of discussions had here are not the kinds of discussions that would be had anywhere else. People would be far more tame and pose their thoughts differently. It may well come to the same non-constructive nonsense, but at the very least there would be a modicum of civility.

 

Personally, I'm going to just try to continue being constructive with my criticism (shameless plug: https://forums.elementalgame.com/394334 ) and hope I inspire others to do the same.

Hello, stranger! Do I know you from somewhere? Your unique way with words is so familiar!

I bought Elemental as a pre-order ages ago.  Short of downloading it during the beta and giving it a five minute "Oooh, this has potential" look I really didn't do anything with it until yesterday.  And it's the most fun I've had in ages!!!

I don't understand what the fuss is about.  The game is a load of fun.  There are a few issues, but on something as complex as this there are bound to be some, just like there are when any other complex game gets released.  Some things slip past QA and of course even if they're caught the programmers don't have unlimited time to fix everything so things get prioritized so the big stuff gets fixed.  Is it perfect?  No.  Was it ready to be released?  I think so.

The one thing I've loved about Stardock as a company ever since I bought the first GalCiv is their post-release support.  I know they aren't going to just let things go.  They wanted to put a released game out into the hands of their fans and have budgeted loads of post-release support.  And unlike EA or Paradox, I don't expect to be nickel and dimed into paying for DLC or expansions to get it.

Stardock are a great company, and I am glad to support them with my money.  And in return I hope they're glad in supporting me with countless hours of entertainment.

It's nice to see "deal with it" posts get to hang around while critical posts get canned. I mean honestly my post about "why was it released early" didn't address a specific game problem but neither does this one.

Hahaha, god, now I'm someone else?  Therapy man....maybe it is that some of you are actually frothing at the mouth?

 

Maybe because there are like 500 of those on here already?  Do you think you had something that someone else hadn't said already? 

 

Where are you getting "deal with it" from? I got "Can we be civil and constructive, people?" which, in and of itself, is civil and constructive. Was yours?

or this one

https://forums.elementalgame.com/393890

I'm quite disappointed with how Stardock has handled aspects of this, while simultaneously rather impressed with others.

 

---

Bad

The early release was an unmitigated disaster of crashes.  Yes, some will post that THEY never had a crash so it must not have happened or been very isolated, but the general sentiment has been the opposite.

Even with 1.05 (aka "Day 0") the game is still missing swaths of promised content (like a functioning AI, diplomacy system or fully working magic)

Brad Wardell has made it clear (in a couple of posts) that he was generally happy with the 1.05 version

Worse, when he "apologized" about how it went off, it came off as "Sorry you don't like it" as opposed to "Sorry we made a mistake releasing a beta"

According to a number of posts by beta testers, there were quite a few threads expressing concerns and issues with the August release date...  and they were promptly ignored.  Hell, much of the core gameplay (such as the bolted on magic system) was put in place towards the very end of the beta cycle.

 

Good

Stardock staff have been posting (albeit a bit infrequently) regarding our legitimate game concerns, and in a couple of cases specific fixes that are in the works

In the span of a week we got 3 patches...  while some view this as a negative, I see it as dedication to at least patch the biggest leaks while they work on more substantive ones.

Despite coming off as somewhat insincere apology, Brad pretty much summed up Stardock's track record and mantra...  this will be fixed

---

 

So while I see how badly Stardock bungled this release, despite warnings and a somewhat dicey track record when it comes to 1.0 versions, I do remain faithful that it'll be alright...  but not anytime soon.

And that's the core of most people's outrage as I see it.  If I pay $50 for a game, I expect it to at least have all the core mechanics in place if not at least a semblance of stability.  My system isn't truly hardcore, but if an i7 920, GTX 275 and 6gb RAM can't muscle through the late game, something is dreadfully wrong.  Alt-tab is still a guaranteed crash despite having the most up to date drivers.  But that's only a minor issues honestly.  The fact that most facets of the game are derivative of many TBS' before is not a problem, but they are fundamentally broken (AI, diplomacy, magic, gear stacking) or one-dimensional (unit design, champions, gear, quests, factions).

Deride Master of Magicall you (not the OP, the plural you we don't have in English) want for their respective launch or balancing issues, but they had "oomph" and pizzaz.  Environment, tons of customization options for your wizard, lots of races with strong differentiation, a huge variety of heroes and items and a superb magic system.

Elemental, in it's current form, is no spiritual successor...  it doesn't even deserve to shine MoM's proverbial shoes.

Maybe in 6 months.  Perhaps a year.  I'll be eagerly awaiting that day.  But I shouldn't have had to pay $50 to be in a public beta while it limps towards that goal.

or this one

https://forums.elementalgame.com/393630

Wow, and I didn't even mention you! Amazing!!

 

It's cuz your kinda a creep:)

Do you? Sorry...I might be missing something here.


Although! One of your other posts plus a take at RPS really made me realize something: I said what is essentially "fanboyism" affects nothing. I think I was wrong on that one. because it affects a lot. It doesn't at all help the company see needs or deficiencies or things that need to be done. It results in a blinding effect if there is enough of it.

A comment on Kieron's impressions by the user Sigh in particular (REALLY well written article, by the way) makes me think:
"I have some thoughts. I have been following this game on the official forums and I have witnessed the loyal/excited fanbase nearly scream for the game to be released early for months now. The hardcore players would play a section of the beta and then would express how sad they were when the beta closed and how they can’t wait for the full game or even for Stardock to release an early version, etc. (which is what they did). As much as I hate to say it I think the development team was a little stuck in this feedback loop bubble of hardcore players screaming for immediate release. I think the beta participation never reached beyond the core community and so created a hermetic seal around the game. Which is one of the problems of closed/preorder betas in more recent times. I now believe that Stardock should have postponed the release date even if it meant missing the “retail window” they had reserved. I still enjoy the game and anticipate its continued development, but they should have dealt with the pressing angst of the core community in order to fully satisfy the wider more casual community that is just now posting in forums. Kieron wrote a very balanced and perceptive 'Impressions' piece here."

I disagree with the whole "satisfying the casual community," especially since Stardock stated quite well that this will not be a casual game, but the feedback loop and bubble parts ring quite true, as far as I can see.

I mean, Elemental is released and now that everyone has it major ideas and feedback are being put out there from all angles, and many of these ideas are amazing and much of this feedback is quite well done and refreshing.

There may very well be an issue here of not covering all the angles...but I agree with Kieron here: Elemental does not sound like the ambitious title I was imagining as its promise was being described. That promise is all still there, but honestly even the idea of Shadow Magic captivates me far more than the idea of Elemental at this time. The idea of the promise of Elemental captivates me FAR MORE than anything else, though. That promise is still quite intact.

I think blindness or blinding in any extreme needs to go; we have a coin: on one side is "fanboyism" and on the other is "hating."
That coin needs to be tossed entirely for this, it seems to me. If every single angle is not covered, the promise of Elemental will not be realized.
I WANT THAT GAME, DARN IT. I want it a lot.
Shadow Magic is great, but it lacks. It is not as interesting or powerful as the full promise of Elemental. In the meantime, by many reports the game is quite enjoyable and fun. By other reports it is buggy and has many issues and in no way lives up to its potential. I do not think these things are mutually exclusive. Sounds like it is a decent game that is, going back to Kieron, "a bit shoddy."
I want a fantastic game with that oomph and pizazz and imagination and wonderment...I've always been worried about that not being present, but I trust that I can count on Stardock to take all the angles presented here and stand by their game. I have hope that the "true Elemental" will be realized...even as the path toward it is still being traveled now.

Yeah, because in this thread from before release, you can really see how the community was pressuring Frogboy into releasing early.

I'm sure you don't want to go through it, so how about reading these gems from the developers:

Their attitude towards everyone was respectful and tolerant of dissent:

 

Um no there not there all pretty much getting deleted, this one should to according to the rules Brad laid down.

You must have been following a different part of the official forums than I did, because during the Beta process I felt the vast majority were telling Brad that the game was being wrapped up too quickly.

 

I would say the vast majority of the Beta community was saying that. I was waiting for a release Canidate to actually start testing the one version prior to release was the only "beta" I thought there was the prior stuff all felt like the actual development stages and alphas. I feel as if we got beta 1 v2 as the release which is about 5 steps too early in the process.

I think the whole "pressuring" thing is valid...the massive excitement and buzz about it and extreme desire to have it earlier (myself included, though I never said it due to being mostly a lurker) do exert a lot of pressure, and when it comes from within that loop/bubble it entrenches you in your idea.

Also, "he just starts ignoring all their posts and focusing on people with useful feedback."

Specifically: "focusing on people with useful feedback."

I don't want to devolve into an argument over what these things meant; I will simply say that, if you are being sarcastic as I suspect, you're taking that post out of its nature. Badgering with "game won't make date" isn't really helpful. In fact, it hardens someone to it if you do it enough over time. Actual useful feedback was favored, it seems to me. HOWEVER, yes, there were many concerned about the release...I don't know if their concerns were well-addressed, though.

Sifting through this stuff doesn't really help current matters, since it's past, but we thirst for knowing.



I do have a question for you: Now, post-release, what would you do? Elemental's out, and by all reports it's a bit shoddy and unimaginitive, but fun and enjoyable. Down what path would you take the game?


I might liken this situation to being the same and the opposite of the situation with Battlecruiser...but I don't know if I quite want to invoke that.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, it does seem like the sentiment of delaying the release was pretty widespread. Stardock is well willing, it seems, to take the fall for that...and that criticism has been given. It need not go above and beyond into hate as I see blossoming in many places. Nothing is excused, but Stardock has their reputation for a reason. Most of the time, something like this means potential is pretty much gone...here it is still quite alive. The problems are very real, and indeed they shouldn't be there, but they are there. What's being done about it?

There is a mistake and an error: a mistake is screwing up, and an error is refusing to correct your mistake.
There was an error, that seems pretty darn clear. Was there an mistake, as so many developers and publishers make?
No.
That's why I'm still here. Stardock is cleaning up, making it better, doing something about it.

My call is not a call to "deal with it" or to "accept all opinions no matter what" [eww] or to "hold on for what is to come."
My call is simply this: be civil, be constructive, do well by Elemental and by Stardock, for Stardock is doing well by us. Who knows? The things you are disgruntled about may be the exact things they need to hear. If how you express it is filled with hate, they are going to likely miss your message in all that venom.
My call is simply to engage the present reality -- the past is past and Stardock is taking hits for their error, but never shall they make a mistake here. Stardock absolutely does not deserve the criticism for a mistake.

Yes I guess that's what I meant.  I also made the mistake of addressing the poster, when he was just quoting another poster on another message board.

Sorry, crappy forum ate my post, so you don't get to read it. I guess everyone will have to wait for the patch!

Heh, I remember that thread. There were two people in that thread: those of us greatly concerned with the deadline and asking to have the game delayed - and those who knew nothing could go wrong at all, and in fact also knew that the people being negative had absolutely no idea what they were talking about (because they could clearly read into a person's experience and knowledge through an internet forum).

 

I made light of it in another thread but I think alot of us here really Like Brad and his stances on DRM, Gamers BillOfRights, Digital Distribution Philosophy, etc. And that makes this release a really tough pill to swallow. I for one was preaching the pre-paid beta philosophy and heralding Brad and SD's name as a model for how to get polished software out the door. 

 

It just feels like they just took their principals and threw them out and I honestly don't know why and honesty feel a little betrayed, its always worse when its someone you like and trust. I know they'll make it right with patches but every single developer in this industry needs to hear the community very loud and very clear, were absolutly sick and tired of getting unfinished software. And as software discounts get more prolific theres no way people are going to pay up front money for a developer known to release unfinished product when that prduct will be better 6 months down the road with patches and significantly cheaper. 

 

Brad and Co. have lost significant amounts of goodwill on this premature release.  Especially since he was touting something quite more noble fairly recently.  (We, the players, have the right to a finished game, we, Stardock, don't need the money that badly because of our other interests...)

Best regards,
Steven.