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A quick note from Brad on Elemental

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A quick note from Brad on Elemental

Edge...network...painful..

from Elemental Forums

Greetings!

I'm pretty far from a good net connection so I'll keep this brief  :-)

Let me say that I'm glad that most people seem to like the game.  This message, however, is for those who are disappointed with Elemental so far.

Stardock is not just a game studio but it is also a publisher.  What does this mean?  Well, historically, the way it works is a game is released and if people don't like it, they're supposed to buy some expansion pack for it that "fixes" things that people thought should be in the original version. 

We don't have to do that because we're both the studio and the publisher.

That means we can release free "expansion packs" for Elemental until such a high percentage of players love the game that only then can we discuss sequels or paid expansions.

Having had the opportunity to finally get out of the office for the first time in months has let me look at the game (and ahem, play the game for crazy amounts) of time from a new perspective.

I should also say that regardless of sales or reviews, our commitment to Elemental will not be affected. As some of you know, most of our company's revenue doesn't come from developing games. Even if the game didn't sell another copy, we would still continue our update schedule. 

So what will be the concrete results of this?

1. In September we will release v1.1 which will be the first major revision to the game that takes into account the feedback we're getting from players. This will be a  pretty substantial change. In particular, character creation, magic (think, shared mana pools), 

2. We are going to go ahead and make a more traditional tutorial. I'm not a fan of tutorials but some of my grognard friends have had trouble figuring out the mechanics which means to me that we have to do something about that.

3. We are going to move Book 2: Magesa out of a future expansion pack and into the base game in a future "mega" update, likely late Fall.

4. As mentioned on the forums back in July-ish, we plan to make a new DVD gold master available to those with limited Internet connections later this Fall.

5. As discussed (I think) last Winter, I will be taking a sabbatical this Fall specifically so I can dedicate time to AI and modding so that others, long after me, can use the Elemental engine to create other things (you will need to know Python to really go crazy with it).

6. I will NOT be ceasing my postings on other forums.  The guys on Qt3 and Octopus Overlords and elsewhere are my friends. I'm no more going to stop posting there then I would stop going out with my friends to movies and other "public places" where, heaven forbid, someone datamining my comments might find a "gotcha moment". Those people are my friends both on the forums and outside the forums. Interacting with you guys is a major reason I like making games in the first place.

7. To those reviewing the game: I would urge you to review the game prior to v1.1. I say this because v1.05 (the release day version) is the version of the game that was originally released and if that version of the game is considered flawed then my view is that Stardock should suffer the consequences for that. We appreciate the kindness and patience many people have shown.  I just think game studios, including Stardock, need to be conscious of what they release and not expect to "patch themselves out of trouble". I do believe Elemental is, by far, the best game we've ever made but I also agree with most of the criticisms I've read too. The state of PC entertainment has changed since 2006 (when we released GalCiv II) and it is our responsibility to stay with the times. 

In short, we love this game. And we love this community.  We're not going to be leaving this game to work on some other game.  We're with it and you guys for the long haul. 

I won't be around to answer questions until next week so I hope this answers some questions.

 

elemental
1,061,325 views 333 replies
Reply #251 from Elemental Forums Top

Boogie was posting this morning in other threads. He's probably busy working, and Brad is on vacation. :P

Reply #252 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting solidsmooky, reply 251
I think the devs abandoned this forum.
Then you clearly haven't tried to embrace the old adage "read more, post less". 

Siege of Centauri
Reply #253 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Clawdius_Talonious, reply 253

Quoting solidsmooky, reply 251I think the devs abandoned this forum.Then you clearly haven't tried to embrace the old adage "read more, post less". 

"Read more, post less" ye olde adage coined 1999 on AOL.

Reply #254 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting solidsmooky, reply 254

Quoting Clawdius_Talonious, reply 253
Quoting solidsmooky, reply 251I think the devs abandoned this forum.Then you clearly haven't tried to embrace the old adage "read more, post less".

"Read more, post less" ye olde adage coined 1999 on AOL.

I thought the old adage is "Never get in a land war in Asia".

Or is it "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker"?

 

Reply #255 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 255

I thought the old adage is "Never get in a land war in Asia".
Or is it "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker"?

 

Pretty sure it's "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!" :)

Reply #256 from Elemental Forums Top

The game is amazing, unfortunately I cant play it due to the nasty slow down bug. If anyone here can remember Emperor of the Fading Suns, absolutely wicked game, really advanced concepts for its time(think Machiavelli the Prince meets Galciv). Unfortunately it wasn't really playable until patched a year down the road(due to the same end game slow down).

 

Anyway I have faith in stardock & will simply wait for the eventual fixes... thanks for the post OP. :)

Reply #257 from Elemental Forums Top

One word: presents.

Keep giving your early adopters little presents, because right now many people here - while they seem to be in a pretty good mood - are nonetheless pretty disappointed by the sheer number of issues to be addressed.

You are lucky, oh so lucky... you have a customer base here more tolerant of a problematic release than I have seen in any other game. But it won't last forever. You know this. But you may have less time than you might think before the tide turns.

So give little presents, often. Surprises. Glowy things. Some oooh, and some aaah. Scatter 'em around, and you may still turn this little mess around.

Reply #258 from Elemental Forums Top

That means we can release free "expansion packs" for Elemental until such a high percentage of players love the game that only then can we discuss sequels or paid expansions.

 

This is good.  I liked sins of a solar empire, but felt a little cheated when basic things like diplomacy were turned into a paid expansion pack.  Never bought any of the expansions since I felt they should have been included in any game billed as a 4x strategy.  After opening rounds playing elemental, I was afraid of the same.  Nifty but unfinished project with expansions to bring the features that should have been in the opening release.  Don't go back on this one, I was already thinking about dropping Stardock due to the sins ones.  The company and the games have a lot of potential, but I don't like paying for updates that should already be included. 

Reply #259 from Elemental Forums Top

I only got to play GalCiv for a short while and I didn't use the forums for that, but I've read through (hundreds) of forum posts now and it's obvious to anyone who takes the time to listen that you (Brad) and your team really care about us (the players, which includes you too).  It's unfortunate that the game got off to a rocky start, but the complex genre mixing into a new creature is already showing great promise, and it's only getting better with time.

I expect a great many sales of EWoM to follow as word of mouth spreads and more people mention it when discussing other 4x, TBRPG and city builder games.  Thank you for bringing this game to us.

Reply #260 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 220



*SNIP*
Even you recognize his was at best a waffling 'apology' - akin to 'I'm sorry you made me mad'.

A real 'apology' would have been "...and if that version of the game is considered flawed..."

Why is this an important point to make?

-First, Brad sold the game in part on the promise that it wouldn't be released early.  Reasons he gave include 1) that's how SD works 2) he has other revenue streams so money wouldn't be an issue

-Second, when it was announced around the end of June that Elemental would be released in Aug, a number of us beta testers very politely and respectfully questioned whether it would be ready in time (see this thread for an example, and this post of mine -- the whole thread is an interesting read for those who weren't around at this time).   The response to these polite and respectful questionings was adamant (and in one example, rude) -- elemental would be release-ready by August.  It was revealed that release would be august because they had painted themselves into a corner, due to securing retail shelf space, of their only choice being Aug or Feb, and they dismissed Feb so were left with Aug.

-Now, we have seen the aug release.  Is it release-ready, judged by reasonable standards and by what SD is capable of?  I argue that even allowing for 1.06 to be the release version, and while the game is fun and 'playable', it doesn't meet the standards of:

*SNIP*


So what problem do I see with Brad's point 7?  I pointed it out -- his 'waffling' regarding the game being flawed.  I argue that reasonable people can judge the release flawed, and many have posted such, here and elsewhere.  The fact that the SD folks are now still working their butts off patching, instead of taking off well-earned time after the pre-release crunch, suggests they agree that the game is flawed enough that they need to do said patching now and not later after a vacation.

Why do I feel it important to point out Brad's waffling?  Because accepting that a mistake has been made is important, especially if one wants it to not be repeated, as I hope it won't in whatever game SD next does.  Because if you make a promise and don't keep it you should be man enough to admit it.  Because a non-apology is worse than saying nothing.

You want to call me a troll for this, even though I've put a lot of work into beta testing, and made and still make a lot of very positive posts regarding SD and Elemental (see here where I list a few recent examples, and the link above this for an example from back in June).  That's fine, be my guest, it's a free country, etc.  I'm an adult and will give this post of yours all the consideration it merits.

*SNIP*

I'm sorry, Nick, but your drivel leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What Brad said was that "if" that version is considered flawed, meaning that it is up to the reviewers themselves to judge whether 1.05 is flawed or not. He never said whether he thinks it is flawed or not. You may, however, read his post in it's entirety, instead of employing your tunnel vision to one particular word, and then try to deduce for yourself whether he thinks 1.05 is flawed). And if you actually do that - reading it in context, then his post comes off as a long, deepfelt apology.

So let's examine here what Brad did say: He said: Please accept my apologies. We realize now that Elemental was not ready, and we will do our damnedest to rectify that. In the meantime, if you are going to review our game, please review that flawed version, since that is what we released. How much more do you need?

- If that is not groveling, then what is?

- If that is not a sincere apology, then what is?

But still you look for qualifications in his post. Why? You say it is for SD's/Brad's own good. I call your bluff. It is because that is all you are capable of.

Criticism is fine - expecially when facing a release as catastrophic as that of Elemental, but bashing is not OK, and even if you try to hide behind good intentions, that is exactly what you are doing! So please get down from that high horse, and if you still feel the need to post, try to be part of the solution - i.e. offering constructive crticism, instead of trying soooo hard to be part of the problem.

Asmodean, a.k.a. Morten

Reply #261 from Elemental Forums Top

I really don't see what all the hubbub is about.

I've played Daggerfall v1.0 and I've played Battlecruiver 3000AD v1.0. Diablo v1.0 on Battlenet. Even Outpost!

And I had fun doing so. That there later were patches to fix most of their issues was great but all those the games were playable at release. Just save often and in different slots. =)

EWOM, in comparison, is amazingly solid. Could be a lot better but there are very few real gamestoppers. (like units losing HP on reloading) Personally, I haven't hit any of them, yet.
Mostly it's quirky interface issues because the dev team was concentrating on finishing the game, so "kinda works" was deemed acceptable for the UI.

Sure, it's not as polished as something as uhh... complex... as a FPS. There are script bugs, sloppy typos in unit stats, all sorts of little things. And the AI cheats like hell on all diff levels which is perfectly normal for your average 4X game. =P
Given the complexity of the game and it being by far the most complex Stardock game, yet, I'm not even surprised.
But an outrage? Oh come on...

Have a nice hot cup of tea and relax. It's not the only game in the world and it is still in development. Sucks but that's how it is. It already got better with the 1.06 patch and that's not the end of it.
Stardock has even been reported to give refunds but the playtime I already got out of the game is higher than with some full price "A" titles in the past.
Even if it wouldn't get better, it would still be a cheap game. Far better mileage than Starcraft 2, for instance...

And no, Stardock isn't paying me. =P

Reply #262 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Asmodean_dk, reply 261
What Brad said was that "if" that version is considered flawed, meaning that it is up to the reviewers themselves to judge whether 1.05 is flawed or not. He never said whether he thinks it is flawed or not. You may, however, read his post in it's entirety, instead of employing your tunnel vision to one particular word, and then try to deduce for yourself whether he thinks 1.05 is flawed). And if you actually do that - reading it in context, then his post comes off as a long, deepfelt apology.

So let's examine here what Brad did say: He said: Please accept my apologies. We realize now that Elemental was not ready, and we will do our damnedest to rectify that. In the meantime, if you are going to review our game, please review that flawed version, since that is what we released. How much more do you need?
Ok.  So first you say "He never said whether he thinks it is flawed or not."  Then you use your powers of deduction to read between his lines to divine what he meant but didn't actually say:

"He said: Please accept my apologies. We realize now that Elemental was not ready...". 

And you conclude "...his post comes off as a long, deepfelt apology".

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, and to read that into his post.

I, instead go by what he actually did and didn't say, not by what I deduce he meant.  He did say "...if that version [1.05] of the game is considered flawed...".  He didn't say the word 'apology' or 'apologize' or 'apologies' or anything similar.  Has he done so anywhere, in regards to the state of Elemental's release?  If so, please to link...

If you wish to go by what you imagine he meant, that's fine with me.  Apparently my going by what he actually did and didn't say isn't fine with you -- and that's also fine with me.

- If that [deduction of yours gleaned by reading between his lines] is not a sincere apology, then what is?
Oh Oh I know the answer to this!

I've made similar mistakes.  My apology, were I the King of the SD Forest for Elemental's release, would go something like this:

"I'm sorry, I was wrong.  I promised, voluntarily and on my initiative, I wouldn't release Elemental before it was ready, and obviously I did.  What happened was, due to the real world realities of reserving retail shelf space, I got stuck with only 2 choices for release -- Aug or Feb.  My best judgment was that Feb was too late -- because I thought Elemental would be ready well before that -- and I truly believed we could get Elemental ready by Aug, so I chose Aug.  That's not an excuse -- I'm not making an excuse -- it's just the explanation.  Anyways I was wrong, no excuse, and I apologize.  We'll work our butts off to make it up to you, to give you the game we're capable of and that you deserve."

No need for any divination, deduction, or reading between the lines.

Criticism is fine - expecially when facing a release as catastrophic as that of Elemental...
"Catastrophic"?  Heck, I don't think it was that bad.  It's just not up to what was promised, and what SD is capable of.  If they hadn't painted themselves into the 'aug or feb' corner, and had another couple of months (say, a Nov release), I think release would have been pretty darn good.

...but bashing is not OK, and even if you try to hide behind good intentions, that is exactly what you are doing!
First, if you wish to call my holding him responsible for his unbroken promise and his waffling non-apology apology 'bashing' -- that's fine.  

Second, it should be pretty darn obvious from my several wall-of-texts laying out of the reasons behind my arguments that I'm not hiding behind anything.  It's all laid out for the readers to judge for themselves.

So please get down from that high horse...
Am I on a high horse, or does it just appear that way from where you're standing?

...if you still feel the need to post, try to be part of the solution - i.e. offering constructive crticism, instead of trying soooo hard to be part of the problem.
It's interesting that in the very post of mine that you quote I link to several examples of constructive criticisms and even kind things I said about SD and Elemental.  Since you apparently missed them the first time I'll repost them:

LINK (a previous post in this very thread)

LINK (from back in June, and the thread is a very interesting/informative one regarding the game being ready for an aug release)

You could find better examples if you chose to put in a little effort.

I can understand you not being aware of all the 'constructive criticisms', suggestions, compliments, and all I've made since beta began, but missing them in the very post you quoted?!?!

Anyhoo, thank you for the opportunity to further refine my thoughts and arguments on this  :)

Reply #263 from Elemental Forums Top

Well we all know that launch was bad,that's all.I don't care for apology or anything, i just dont want to wait too much to have something to feed me a little to justify waiting.

Because a lot of fans stay calm waiting to see what will be done but time is passing and nervosity and anger will soon grow and be problematic.

Reply #264 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting theomni, reply 259
I liked sins of a solar empire, but felt a little cheated when basic things like diplomacy were turned into a paid expansion pack.  Never bought any of the expansions since I felt they should have been included in any game billed as a 4x strategy.

To be fair, Sins wasn't developed by Stardock, they were just the publisher.  I'm pretty sure it was the developer's call to make "Entrenchment" and "Diplomacy" paid expansion packs instead of free content.

Reply #265 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 265



Quoting theomni,
reply 259
I liked sins of a solar empire, but felt a little cheated when basic things like diplomacy were turned into a paid expansion pack.  Never bought any of the expansions since I felt they should have been included in any game billed as a 4x strategy.


To be fair, Sins wasn't developed by Stardock, they were just the publisher.  I'm pretty sure it was the developer's call to make "Entrenchment" and "Diplomacy" paid expansion packs instead of free content.

I don't think it even matters who's decision it was.  It was not in the initial design of the product.  They added it later.  Whether someone believes it should have been or not is really a moot point, except for themselves when making the determination to buy it or not.  For me, it was a welcome addition that was worth some of my extra money.

That's what expansions do...  they EXPAND on the product.

Reply #266 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 265

Quoting theomni, reply 259I liked sins of a solar empire, but felt a little cheated when basic things like diplomacy were turned into a paid expansion pack.  Never bought any of the expansions since I felt they should have been included in any game billed as a 4x strategy.
To be fair, Sins wasn't developed by Stardock, they were just the publisher.  I'm pretty sure it was the developer's call to make "Entrenchment" and "Diplomacy" paid expansion packs instead of free content.

They were also $10 expansions which is far below the standard price. The two combined are $20 and a good value at that price for what they add to the game (which is quite a lot).

Reply #267 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wexmajor, reply 79

This will be a pretty substantial change. In particular, character creation, magic (think, shared mana pools),


 

This sounds both unexpected and cool, I hadn't even considered shared mana pools.

I really don't want shared mana pools. But everything else sounds good

Reply #268 from Elemental Forums Top

I think the devs abandoned this forum.
We'll be around for a long time, my friend :)  Just taking more notes than chiming in, ATM.

Reply #269 from Elemental Forums Top

I was essing with the map creator and it crashed (I was busy making a BLANK map).. on a i7 975 15GB RAM GTX 295 mind you... I don't experience slowdownns that often but they do happen. But what get me is the crashes..
  We fixed a memory bug when placing mountains....it'll be in for the next update.

Reply #270 from Elemental Forums Top

Candor, integrity, commitment to cause and humility peppered with a touch of pride. Exceptional elements for a person in a position such as Frogboy to have to be sure.  Kudos brother man.

:frogboy:

 

(wondering if the rest of the industry is watchin' and learning something about customer relations and community building)

Reply #271 from Elemental Forums Top

...and humility...
Above all, and after the praise garnered by the GalCiv2 series, this experience has been VERY humbling. 

I remember having a list of "wish we could have done THAT" items for GC2, but, despite fearing the worst, the game got great reviews and multiple editors choice awards.  I had a similar list with Elemental, but things are turning out QUITE differently :(  

Many lessons to be learned, but for now, we work to (hopefully) win back some trust from the gamers that beleive in both us and the game.

+1 Loading…
Reply #272 from Elemental Forums Top

It's all good.  The game at its core is great.  Looking forward to the updates in the coming years.

 

One question, what happened to Society?

Reply #273 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 265

Quoting theomni, reply 259I liked sins of a solar empire, but felt a little cheated when basic things like diplomacy were turned into a paid expansion pack.  Never bought any of the expansions since I felt they should have been included in any game billed as a 4x strategy.
To be fair, Sins wasn't developed by Stardock, they were just the publisher.  I'm pretty sure it was the developer's call to make "Entrenchment" and "Diplomacy" paid expansion packs instead of free content.

 

To be even fairer, vanilla Sins had diplomacy. The Diplomacy expansion expanded on it. Clue is in the name folks.

 

Reply #274 from Elemental Forums Top

Criticism is fine - expecially when facing a release as catastrophic as that of Elemental, but bashing is not OK

Nobody has died as a result of developing Elemental, nor as a result of the release of Elemental.

Reply #275 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting BoogieBac, reply 272

Above all, and after the praise garnered by the GalCiv2 series, this experience has been VERY humbling. 
I remember having a list of "wish we could have done THAT" items for GC2, but, despite fearing the worst, the game got great reviews and multiple editors choice awards.  I had a similar list with Elemental, but things are turning out QUITE differently   

Many lessons to be learned, but for now, we work to (hopefully) win back some trust from the gamers that beleive in both us and the game.

Try not to get too down. At the heart of it, you've got a fun game and most of the ideas are good. :) What caused this outcome is simply not having enough development time. That's not a reflection on you or the dev team as designers and programmers.

Once things have been given the time they need, it'll be in good shape.