Not sure why are you writing this as reply to me. On page 3 of the thread, I've clearly admitted that it is unfinished and rushed release. Or, worse, SD originally planned to run such 'paid beta-test' and balance things post-release, based on players' screams.

I'm just saying that on my side of things it looks quite simply - EWOM is the only game of the genre here, and if I want at least _something_ playable, I HAVE to support stardock with this one. So I'll buy this game as soon as it stops crashing on my home desktop or it reaches retail here (Altho I'm quite happy now that 1C delayed its release here in Russia - most likely they figured that they will be torn apart if they release now and said that it takes time to translate as excuse), no matter how bad mechanics are.

I'm not a SD fan. I didn't like SoSE at all (4X and Real-Time do not go well together in my opinion), and I don't find GalCiv2 to be such a masterpiece as it is claimed. But in space 4X we have lots of choices - I just settled with SoTS from other company and happy with it. And we will get at least 2 new very promising 4X next year, I'm very curious what will Shrapnel Games (studio which developed Dominions3) create. I would be happy to go to competitor in this case as well and 'vote with the wallet'. But somehow, turns out, there are no competitors, and SD is quite secure on this side. And I doubt even Civ5 will affect their sales much.

You really saw it with this release, because so many "beta testers" (who never even got to "test" a full version of the game) were blowing rainbows up Frogboy's butt that all the negative reviews that started pouring in from people who didn't care about his feelings blindsided him.

[quote who="Rune_74" reply="56" id="2742716"]
Quoting TheProgress, reply 51


Quoting Rune_74,
reply 32

I do?  What kind of BS statement is that?  You decide what you want to spend money on and feel free to make suggestions on how to fix things...his statement was true if that burns your over sensitive self I have nothn for ya.


The only thing I'm sensitive to is the obscene number of morons overrunning the forums. I was referencing your statement - not his: you're sitting here telling us to stop bitching about something we paid for. I agree that useful posts are more, well... useful, but people have the right to express their frustration on purchasing something that may not work for them.

 




Quoting Krooldeath,
reply 35

Not to mention you modified his quote. Maybe on purpose, maybe not. Just goes to prove that on the internet everyone becomes an expert. Its very sickening actually.


Try clicking on the "view edits" button beneath his post - you'll see he edited his post after I quoted. The only thing sickening here is your severe ignorance.

 

 

 

My post was meant to show how funny it is so many people say they would have done this or that...when in reality it probably wouldn't go that way.  I never said stop bitching....you took it that way...hahaha man, just for agreeing with a post, grow up.[/quote]

Fanboy. What a lovely statement. I have zero interest in Stardock's success or failure. What I am trying to say there is no other titles out there like this. It's worth being a supporter rather than a flamer, although so many people seem to think there opinion matters so much. Unfortunately, the internet is like a bunch of fucking people with Tourett'e Syndrome, you but can't help but blabbing something on the net that you would not say in person.

For what it's worth, this apparent fanboy did two fantasy football drafts this weekend and took my wife and kids to the pool today. So kind of a late response. sorry I'm not slobbering over Elemental, I was just pointing out a few facts.

Honestly, I dunno if I've seen this point brought up before and it truly bears repeating.

While giving pre-orders some sort of cookie is awesome, especially those that started way back in the beginning.  But basing your entire testing pool on those willing to buy into it so early really taints the pool.

I really do like the way Blizzard does their testing cycles for the most part.

To wit, they first start with a "friends and family alpha" to iron out the most grotesque gameplay bugs.  Then move to a lengthier and expanded closed beta.  And in at least one case (the original release of WoW) an open beta just before release.  This way tens of thousands of people have touched the game in some form and with any luck the majority have no ties or vested interests in the game per se.

Granted something of this magnitude is impossible for anything but one of the larger studios, but it does bear consideration.  If the pre-orders for Elemental had gotten their cookie in the form of alpha access and possible a discounted upgrade to LE, then Stardock had wrenched the doors open to a much wider audience some of the birthing pains might have been reduced or eliminated.

Doesn't really matter whether I like it or not. It's not up to you to tell people to get a refund and move on. It's not up to up to tell people to keep quiet. It's not up to you to tell people anything other than your opinion of the game. Just keep in mind not every opinion is going to agree with yours and that doesn't make you right or wrong. It's just your opinion.

I commend SD for bringing in beta testers so early to the design process, and for listening to us (they really did listen). 

Had they not gotten into the 'release in Aug or Feb' only choice I think we'd have had a 'traditional beta' before release, with its attendant fixes in release.

Regarding Surly's point, there was a tendency for beta testers to emphasize the positive and to be fans of the game/studio, given that one had to pre-order to be accepted, but for the most part (IMO) the advice/suggestions/feedback given were honest and not so much 'rainbows blown up butts'.  There wasn't much 'this sux!', but that's because the game and its features didn't suck.  Discussions were mostly about personal preferences (for example: did we want simultaneous turns or MeGo-YouGo or...?  Did we want a lot of 'random' tactical maps that reflected the terrain local to the battle, or did we want hand-crafted, highly detailed maps that didn't reflect the local terrain as much [we wanted both, of course!]).

The game now doesn't suck, it's just not 'ready'.  What there is in the game doesn't suck, it's pretty darn good, it's just not 'ready'.  Other than beta testers saying the game wasn't ready (which did occur but wasn't... shall we say... well received at all), there was nothing really to criticize about the game, it was/is that good.

I honestly believe some open tester feedback would have convinced SD to push back the release. It's only when the signal to noise ratio gets high ENOUGH sometimes that developers start to realize they may have misjudged the whole situation. Not always, but sometimes.

If they were worried about what public opinion on the state of the beta game would have done to sales... it can't be any worse than all the negative publicity they got with this release. 

Hypocrasy aside, the term "fanboy" while intended to be an insult, is actually a compliment to the developer.  In this case, Stardock.

Stardock has built up a reputation, i.e. "brand recognition," based upon the history of previous products of high quality.  These products have produced a bond between consumer and company which is called "loyalty."  It is only natural for these consumers to feel defensive when that loyalty is attacked from outside sources.  Stardock will do whatever it takes to ensure that this loyalty is rewarded and nourished, otherwise this bond will be severed, likely to never be healed.

So yes, let them scream out "fanboy!" all they wish.  Each time it is uttered, it is a testament to Stardock that they produce software of high enough quality that "fanboys" are also created.  My guess is, that when it is all said and done, Stardock and Elemental will have even more fanboys than before it hit the shelves.

I think the problem was that the beta testers (and I was one, although I didn't comment much which I regret) didn't know for sure, we had to extrapolate based on the information we had. We were playing very cut down limited versions of the game and it was completely obvious that it wasn't ready for release... but then Brad tells us what a huge difference there is between the beta version we are playing with and their build. That puts a big seed of doubt out there, yes it looks unfinished but maybe we are wrong, maybe they have made massive advancements in their own build and it will work?

You can see the problem. There was no true beta, just a series of alpha's really. I guess you could say the final beta version was close to a true beta and that certainly began to raise some alarm bells but by then Stardock were committed to the August release and weren't willing to listen to anyone about it being unready.

I personally felt Elemental was heading towards a trainwreck about 3 months ago when reading their planned release schedule. As a software developer I just couldn't see how they could possibly finish the game and polish it while they were still making such huge changes to the engine and fundamental gameplay. However as mentioned to my regret I didn't post my concerns... really wish I had.

What is to understand here, I never said to get one....I said you could get  one.  Geez touchy or what?  People maybe didn't know they could.  If you get all hurt I really don't cae.

Sorry, but that's funny. If someone calls you something negative, just recast it in way that makes you look positive! Yeah! Positive thinking is the way!

Or you can be real, and realize that being a fanboy, while sometimes being good, also means a lot of negative stuff for both the person and Stardock. Fanboys say a lot about a company, both good and bad. If being blindly loyal and always shelling out for their product no matter what is what being a Stardock fan is all about, then that's not something you should be proud of. I don't think they'd want that either, to be honest. At least I hope not. I thought that's one thing that separated indie devs from big dev houses with publishers.

Seriously, if the argument is that only quality games create fan boys, then you and I are existing in two totally different worlds of entertainment. Crappy mass-produced games breed new fan boys every day, just the same as good ones.

That said, the environment in this forum during the runup to release was neck-deep rampant fanboyism. People posted thread after thread praising Frogboy and Stardock for any and all real or imagined features that they expected would be fully implemented and bug-free in the game. Frogboy said that he would be very surprised if any negative reviews of the game were made, and he was talking about the gold version. There was even a thread where people praised Stardock for not doing retailer exclusives and they cheerfully accepted the praise without correcting them, because they didn't want to wreck the carnival mood. Whenever any thread threatened to get even a little negative, it was locked or deleted. When someone posted that the street date had been broken, the thread was deleted and denials were issued that the thread had ever existed or that it was a hoax. Only when a video was posted on Youtube and it got dugg, did anyone acknowledge that it was going on.

I wasn't in beta, so I can't comment on the environment back then, but when the game was finally released, there was a svitstorm on sites and forums, all over the internet. This site, however, was as serene as ever, because the "see no evil, speak no evil" status quo of this forum was still being maintained. Check out the "chick review" thread to see me defending the game like the good fanboy that I am. It was a turkey shoot when most of the other posters had my back.

Fact is, Frogboy likes being praised. I don't blame him, being praised is nice. However, when you are normally hanging in an environment where all you are getting is praised and you wander out into the wild world of internet discourse, you tend to get burned and angry. It's totally forgivable, but could have been mitigated quite a bit if more people around here would have some tolerance for constructive criticism.

Maybe that's because some of us actually have Tourette's, moron.  Good grief.

Hahaha, OMG fell out of my chair.

Why would tourettes effect your typing?

Stop making things up, this tool posted about MoM and its suposed failure, made it sound like he played it at launch. Dude, at 10 years old I hardly think you even knew about PC'c

I never said MoM as a failure, what is wrong with you?  I said I loved it.  Hell I have it on dosbox now, way to make assumptions, and please stop the childish attacks.

Regarding tolerance for constructive criticism, I agree it could have been better.  An example is Istari's post where he said "Brad's pretty used to it. Once he sees people posting "game won't make date" he just starts ignoring all their posts and focusing on people with useful feedback." 

You know, I'm not really disagreeing, or agreeing, with you.  It's like the 9 blind guys and the elephant.  Each observes a different part of the elephant, so each draws a very different conclusion regarding the beast.  We have different perspectives, and if we draw different conclusions it doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong, they're just different conclusions.

I have been playing video games in one form or another since my family bought a computer when I was 6 years old waaay back in 1982.  I taught them how to use it.  A friend of mine has a 3 year old that knows how to work a computer better than she knows how to speak or walk.

This is not an attack against you by the way Birdmon, I am just pointing out a flaw in your logic.

This. Beta 4 was the first true beta.

That's not to bash beta 1-3. They had a specific purpose, and they did it. Beta 1 was all about the cloth map and city building mechanics. It went on for quite a while. You notice how those two things tend to work pretty well? For what it was intended to test, it worked perfectly. But it wasn't a game beta, it was an alpha. Beta 2 was effectively a MP tech demo. Again, it did its job, but it wasn't a beta in any real sense of the word.

The schedule was fine except a beta 5 was needed (and Nick found a post of me saying that in June, so at least I'm consistent!). The beta 5 we never saw is when the full game was put together and could be properly tested for things like mechanics, coherence, and balance. How well does it play as a game?

THAT phase was missing, and most of the problems people are seeing with the beta process are due to that. The testers simply didn't get to test the gameplay of the full game for very long.

The only other problem really was with Stardock's adamant desire to ignore any "this schedule is impossibly optimistic, delay the game" comments. There was a lot of them. They locked some, bashed the posters of others, and in one case just said they ignore any thread like that.

Next time, they might want to rethink that. Some people will say that no matter how long it's in beta, but when the game is coming out in 2 months and testers are saying it because they haven't *seen* 60% of the tech tree, tactical combat, mods, or diplomacy, maybe they're on to something.

(My friend at Bethesda has told me similar things when he tried the beta, and given that he's worked on some much bigger games I'm inclined to listen to him. He knows what he's talking about.)

EDIT: I'll reply again or edit this post once I'm finished reading through those links!

These last handful of posts have been pretty helpful in filling the gaps for those of us that were on the outside during beta. I began to get worried about Elemental when I read through dev journals that "magic had gone in" and I found myself going "wait, a core part of the game is getting dropped and slotted in....and they release in two months?"

Every company gets to make the call whether their game is ready to ship. But they really should have planned for a period of testing the actual game and how it all came together. Because in the end, they're not judged for the performance of any one aspect, a game is always judged as a sum of it's parts.

Anyways, good posts guys, thanks for the stories.

OK, after reading that thread I wish to retract everything I said about fanboys causing Stardock and Froggy to get blindsided by negative reaction to the current state of Elemental. It seems, from that thread, that Frogboy asked for, got, and then willfully ignored constructive criticism that - if heeded - would have prevented the entire release fiasco. Sure, the fanboys reinforced that whole "haters gonna hate" reaction to legitimate concerns, but the "tone at the top" not only suggested, but said outright, that anyone who thought the release should be delayed was getting ignored.

It's kinda sad when someone you look up to does crap like that. I guess I should have picked up on the contradiction between "Games aren't our main business, so we don't answer to nobody and can make it however we want!" and "Sorry, release date is locked in, gotta get that gold version out the door in 3 weeks!" It's quite possible that the reason Stardock does betas like that is to ENCOURAGE people to blow rainbows up their butts.

So.. what are you suggesting a whole sale sell back of our games? Too late now.. I can not fathom that such was the intended tone but to read it straight that is also somewhat the impression I got. Like it or lump it. My main concern of now is the technical issues of stability. I expect that by the time the try and release 1.1, half their work will have been done by the player modders.

Actually, what is funny is the need to take it to a level of actually trying to insult other people on the internet over a game.  So if I want to spin it as a compliment to Stardock someone's inability to discuss something civilly and intelligently without taking it to a level of unnecessary immaturaty, I will do so.

So yeah, go ahead and defend those that need to take it to that level.  Mediocrity is the new exceptional, after all.  Strive to be average!