Master_of_Magic

Any Master of Magic fans here? Is Elemental: War of Magic a Spiritual Heir to the Master of Magic lineage?

Any Master of Magic fans here? Is Elemental: War of Magic a Spiritual Heir to the Master of Magic lineage?

Based on my name, you can see I'm a big Master of Magic (MoM) fan. I've waited 16 years for a game to replicate the experience that the MoM provided back then. Though there were other excellent fantasy TBS games since then, even today I run back to the DOS emulator to fire up the old MoM once in a while just to enjoy the fun of imbuing a double axe with flaming, haste, and +6 attack, and then let it rip in the hand of Gunther the Barbarian. There's just something special in that game. Too bad there was never a true sequel to the game. Imagine my surprise when I heard Stardock was trying to do a game like MoM. Even if it did not get the brand name, as long as the gun has the fun ingredients and factors from that game, then I'll be more than satisfied.

I'm also disappointed to hear all the hoopla about the launch problems. It certainly didn't present a good invitation to me as a gamer, but I am still hopeful that the concept of Elemental is not lost. Keep in mind that even Master of Magic took until 1.31 patch to become the fantastic TBS that it was. I'm hoping by update 1.31, Elemental would be a much more polished game that everybody expected it to be.

Therefore I have not played the Elemental, but I will be as soon as it's improved to the point where I get to jump right into an enjoyable and balanced game. For now, to wet my appetite, I'm wondering for you Master of Magic fans, do you think Elemental has the key aspects of the original MoM that made it such a classic? And what can be done with Elemental to make it more fun. Perhaps this will give developers some ideas about how to fine tune the game to capture the "magic formula" for a classic?

 

164,978 views 54 replies
Reply #26 Top

The short answer is no, its not. But check back again in 3 to 6 months and we'll see.

Reply #27 Top


Based on my name, you can see I'm a big Master of Magic (MoM) fan. I've waited 16 years for a game to replicate the experience that the MoM provided back then. Though there were other excellent fantasy TBS games since then, even today I run back to the DOS emulator to fire up the old MoM once in a while just to enjoy the fun of imbuing a double axe with flaming, haste, and +6 attack, and then let it rip in the hand of Gunther the Barbarian. There's just something special in that game. Too bad there was never a true sequel to the game. Imagine my surprise when I heard Stardock was trying to do a game like MoM. Even if it did not get the brand name, as long as the gun has the fun ingredients and factors from that game, then I'll be more than satisfied.

I'm also disappointed to hear all the hoopla about the launch problems. It certainly didn't present a good invitation to me as a gamer, but I am still hopeful that the concept of Elemental is not lost. Keep in mind that even Master of Magic took until 1.31 patch to become the fantastic TBS that it was. I'm hoping by update 1.31, Elemental would be a much more polished game that everybody expected it to be.

Therefore I have not played the Elemental, but I will be as soon as it's improved to the point where I get to jump right into an enjoyable and balanced game. For now, to wet my appetite, I'm wondering for you Master of Magic fans, do you think Elemental has the key aspects of the original MoM that made it such a classic? And what can be done with Elemental to make it more fun. Perhaps this will give developers some ideas about how to fine tune the game to capture the "magic formula" for a classic?

 

Elemental has the potential to be as good a game as Master of Magic.

I intend on making Elemental as close to MoM as possible through modding.

You can learn more about the MoM mod here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/396558

Reply #28 Top


Based on my name, you can see I'm a big Master of Magic (MoM) fan. I've waited 16 years for a game to replicate the experience that the MoM provided back then. Though there were other excellent fantasy TBS games since then, even today I run back to the DOS emulator to fire up the old MoM once in a while just to enjoy the fun of imbuing a double axe with flaming, haste, and +6 attack, and then let it rip in the hand of Gunther the Barbarian. There's just something special in that game. Too bad there was never a true sequel to the game. Imagine my surprise when I heard Stardock was trying to do a game like MoM. Even if it did not get the brand name, as long as the gun has the fun ingredients and factors from that game, then I'll be more than satisfied.

I'm also disappointed to hear all the hoopla about the launch problems. It certainly didn't present a good invitation to me as a gamer, but I am still hopeful that the concept of Elemental is not lost. Keep in mind that even Master of Magic took until 1.31 patch to become the fantastic TBS that it was. I'm hoping by update 1.31, Elemental would be a much more polished game that everybody expected it to be.

Therefore I have not played the Elemental, but I will be as soon as it's improved to the point where I get to jump right into an enjoyable and balanced game. For now, to wet my appetite, I'm wondering for you Master of Magic fans, do you think Elemental has the key aspects of the original MoM that made it such a classic? And what can be done with Elemental to make it more fun. Perhaps this will give developers some ideas about how to fine tune the game to capture the "magic formula" for a classic?
 

I just played MOM and say that Elemental is very different than it. I think, AOW has more similarity to MOM than Elemental.

But, I say that Elemental has power that surpass MOM. the only weak point of Elemental comparing to MOM are it's magic system and the combat system.

Honestly, between AOW, MOM and elemental have their own strength and weakness for me.

AOW is too complicated and slow pace game play for my taste (it was good, but I don't like it)

MOM is clasic with good magic system (that not too complicated) and fun, but their Civilization gameplay is too simple for today gamers

While Elemental has RPG element and excitement with simple game play and strategy, but can't compete in term of magic system (as the magic system of Elemental is bad for the moment, the play list doesn't encourage the strategic choice but only... to break the rule and make the champion look strong)

 

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Brainsucker, reply 28

 
 
I just played MOM and say that Elemental is very different than it. I think, AOW has more similarity to MOM than Elemental.

But, I say that Elemental has power that surpass MOM. the only weak point of Elemental comparing to MOM are it's magic system and the combat system.

Honestly, between AOW, MOM and elemental have their own strength and weakness for me.

AOW is too complicated and slow pace game play for my taste (it was good, but I don't like it)

MOM is clasic with good magic system (that not too complicated) and fun, but their Civilization gameplay is too simple for today gamers

While Elemental has RPG element and excitement with simple game play and strategy, but can't compete in term of magic system (as the magic system of Elemental is bad for the moment, the play list doesn't encourage the strategic choice but only... to break the rule and make the champion look strong)

 

This type of posts make me scratch my head and wonder if this is a troll or just a fanboy post..

Look at the name of both games Master of MAGIC and Elemental : War of MAGIC..

Notice the word MAGIC in both?

Saying EWOM has "power that surplass" MOM despite being weaker in MAGIC system is really insane.. MAGIC is the main thing in games like this. Similarly 4x games are war games essentially, so admitting EWOM is lousy in that area doesn't even help your case..

RPG element? What exactly are we talking here? the quest element? Totally boring..Civilization gameplay being too simple? The last I check civilization is the most famous TBS game series in the world the original civilizations are way more playable than most "modern games"..

Here's the problem with EWOM .. They focused on stuff that didn't really matter , quest system? dynasty system??  or were of perhaps lesser important, but totally ignored the ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF 4X fantasy. i.e Magic and Tactical combat.. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #30 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 29


 
This type of posts make me scratch my head and wonder if this is a troll or just a fanboy post..

Look at the name of both games Master of MAGIC and Elemental : War of MAGIC..

Notice the word MAGIC in both?

Saying EWOM has "power that surplass" MOM despite being weaker in MAGIC system is really insane.. MAGIC is the main thing in games like this. Similarly 4x games are war games essentially, so admitting EWOM is lousy in that area doesn't even help your case..

RPG element? What exactly are we talking here? the quest element? Totally boring..Civilization gameplay being too simple? The last I check civilization is the most famous TBS game series in the world the original civilizations are way more playable than most "modern games"..

Here's the problem with EWOM .. They focused on stuff that didn't really matter , quest system? dynasty system??  or were of perhaps lesser important, but totally ignored the ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF 4X fantasy. i.e Magic and Tactical combat.. 

 
 

So just because I have different opinion than the majority then you call me a Troll?. How democracy you are. People have their own opinion about something. I like Elemental, and I just play MOM and AOW SM (both still in my hard disk right now). And I just say, according to my own taste that Elemental has it's own strength comparing to MOM. Is it a troll? Or you just troll my post?

 

Reply #31 Top

You are welcome to like or claim to like anything you want of course.

But your post has no other content beyond asserting your right to like the game (i assume you don't disagree that magic and TC are most important in games like this), so I have no other comment. 

Reply #32 Top

Quoting luketan, reply 31
You are welcome to like or claim to like anything you want of course.

But your post has no other content beyond asserting your right to like the game (i assume you don't disagree that magic and TC are most important in games like this), so I have no other comment. 

 

Yes, i'm agree that magic is the most important and MOM is definately still better at this area. I just say that Elemental has it's own strength comparing to MOM. But peace man, We just write our statement, everyone welcome here (even I'm a fan boy and you "hate" the current Elemental). I even don't say that Elemental is better than MOM. Once again, I just say that Elemental has it's own strength comparing to MOM. So Peace

Reply #33 Top

Chill a bit, Luketan.  His original post was neither trollish or fanboyish.  It was simply his assessment.  But you certainly did not hesitate to interpret it how you chose to and flame him.  His point regarding:

Saying EWOM has "power that surplass" MOM despite being weaker in MAGIC system is really insane

The word he is looking for is "potential."  Elemental has the potential to surpass MoM.  And he is spot on.

Reply #34 Top

Just adding my vote to the "not yet, but probably will be" faction. But it is still fun to play right now as-is.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting Jharii, reply 33
Chill a bit, Luketan.  His original post was neither trollish or fanboyish.  It was simply his assessment.  But you certainly did not hesitate to interpret it how you chose to and flame him.  His point regarding:


Saying EWOM has "power that surplass" MOM despite being weaker in MAGIC system is really insane

The word he is looking for is "potential."  Elemental has the potential to surpass MoM.  And he is spot on.

The text medium makes it's difficult to tell if someone is "chill" or not. And yes everyone has to right to their assessment right or wrong. I truly believe that.

As for being "Spot on". Personally, saying something has potential is to me is a copout.. every game that is not finished has "potential" , that's not saying much really.

And yes, that's my assessment and I have the right to it as much as anyone right? :D

 

Reply #36 Top

I  wouldn't  call it  an  heir per se.  It's  amazing  how todays  society  as a whole perceives  (in music, film , games,  etc.), anything  new  as    better.  As of  now, Elemental  isn't  close  to  MOM,  but  it  has  the  potential  to at  the  very  least be  its  rival (I hope  it  surpasses it  one  day).   MOM had bugs (remember the  memory  issues?),   but  it  was  quite  complex  and  had  a nice  flow  to  the  game. Simply stated,  Master of  Magic was fun, regardless of  it's blocky deluxe paint-like graphics and animations.

IMHO, E:WOM  mixes  some fun  with an amply supply of  frustration.  Although  now  fairly  stable, it  is  still  a bit of a  mess; yet  it is a very  interesting mess which  can   be  fixed  correctly,  but,  it  will take  massive  amounts  of  our  time.

  •       From  the  shoddy mismanagement.  (sorry  gents  and  ladies,  but  games  need to   adhere  to  a  strict outline and organization).   It  looked  like the  team  had  tons of  ideas,  and  found out  that  they  could  not implement  all or  many  of  them;  so,   many  good  ideas  (and  necessities),   were  left  by the  wayside.
  •       To  the  haphazard  visuals  (though  professional  and    many of the images  are  quite  nice/polished,  there  are quite a number of    animations that  are:  poor, not included, mis-misaligned,   and/or  simply  DULL.   A  recently joined  person  will  bow  in  one  direction, rarely  facing the  sovereign). It's  the  little  things,   and  the  sense of  wonder that  is   severely (and sadly),  lacking  in  Elemental.  I'm  not  talking  about  all the  graphics,  but  many of the   figures  are  embarrassing- dull, mono toned, and almost lifeless.   Many of  the  message screens  are  bland  and  vanilla  as  well.  The  2D  artwork, if  done  correctly  could  have  brought  a lot  of life, interest  and stylization/detail  that  is  sadly  lacking,  especially  when  they  stated the  Alphonse Mucha influence. Mucha's  artwork  was vibrant, detailed,  colorful  and  showcased a wonderful   flow. 
  •       To  the  poor  sound  effects. All the  same    sounds  for  each  monster  dying? 
  •       To  multiple expansion  announcements, which  IMHO  should not  matter  until  there is  a full-fledged Elemental  to  enjoy.
  •       To its vanilla  campaign (why  put it in  if  it's  not as  important as sandbox?).  A campaign  should pull a player into  the story and engage him/her.
  •       To  the SAME TEXT  stated  over  and  over  for  bandits,  and  the  same  quests,  find the  lab, or  a key.  Variety should  be  the  spice of  life. No diversity or  flavor = dull.

The  game  is  presently  overshadowed  by  a 90's  10  meg  game, simply  because it  was mishandled  and  never  finished  right.

I hope  no  one  attacks  me  on  this  post;  I  do  mention  these criticism in relation  to  MOM,   because when I  first  learned out  this  title  I  was  extremely passionate   and  engaged about  Elemental's potential  to  be  THE 4X  game  that  would  set  a new  standard. Unfortunately, I am  starting  to believe  that  this  won't  happen,  even  with  these  consistent  updates. I sincerely  hope  that  the Elemental  team  stops  what  they're  doing,  reorganizes their direction and  workload,  and may  I  suggest  hiring  or  possible  bartering (heck, give them a  free  expansion  and  a future  credit  for  using  their  work)     with some  of  these  talented  Modders, who  seemed  to  know  what  they  are  doing?

 

As an  ex-game  designer (never  again!!!)  LOL, who was a team  member and  dealt  with  all the  egos, back-stabbing  and  power  plays, until  I  walked  away after a dozen years, I  see the  enormous  possibilities  for Elemental.  I  want  Elemental  to  smoke  MOM, AND Civilization.

Elemental  should  be the  new  classic  in 4x games. I hope the Elemental  team  can continue the repairs and reall add the content  that  this  game demands  and needs to surpass MoM.   

 

IMHO,  MOM still rules,  but I  would  welcome   a new  sovereign  taking it's  place in  the (near?)   future.   Cheers

 


 

Reply #37 Top

No it's not, it's its own IP that has been explained by the company, were it close to MoM, there wouldn't be this much varied discussion on the matter, it would be sheer elation. It is it's own game and I very highly doubt it will ever be close to MoM unless it's ever able to be modded to be close to a MoM, I do not see Stardock doing it however.

Reply #38 Top

Short answer is No.

Slightly longer answer is No, but hopefully it will get there at some point in the future.

All the elements are there, all the potential is there. But virtually none of the elements are really living up to their potentital yet, nor are they all working together yet in a fun, synergystic package. But there's at least a solid year of development left to go on this game, so we'll see how far they are able to take things. The game will certainly improve considerably, of that there can be no doubt. It's already improved a lot in the month since launch. Whether where it ends up will make it the spiritual heir to MoM is yet to be determined. Those are awfully big shoes to fill, there are very few DOS games that are still a blast to play nearly two decades later.

Reply #39 Top

Absolutely not.  Well, its exactly like MoM if you took out spells, heros, races, and artifacts.  Other than those things, its pretty much like MoM.

There aren't any spells like Armegeddon, or Meteor Storm, or Suppress Magic, or Nature's Wrath, or any of the other overworld or city spells that made the game fun. 

Elemental does have a few spells like level 1 fire nuke and level 1 air nuke and level 2 fire nuke, and level 2 water nuke, and level 3 fire nuke, and level 3 air nuke.

I always loved making my heros into one man wrecking machines.  Get a few extra books and make an axe with Phantasmal for ignoring armor, and Haste for double attacks.  Make a plate armor with magic immunity and invisibility, and then make a righ with stats and flying.  What was the result... A flying indestructable tour de force that would crush all in its wake.  There's nothing like this in Elemental and I don't know if there ever will be.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Brainsucker, reply 28
I just played MOM and say that Elemental is very different than it. I think, AOW has more similarity to MOM than Elemental.

But, I say that Elemental has power that surpass MOM. the only weak point of Elemental comparing to MOM are it's magic system and the combat system.

Honestly, between AOW, MOM and elemental have their own strength and weakness for me.

AOW is too complicated and slow pace game play for my taste (it was good, but I don't like it)

MOM is clasic with good magic system (that not too complicated) and fun, but their Civilization gameplay is too simple for today gamers

While Elemental has RPG element and excitement with simple game play and strategy, but can't compete in term of magic system (as the magic system of Elemental is bad for the moment, the play list doesn't encourage the strategic choice but only... to break the rule and make the champion look strong)

Out of curiousity, what was complicated about AoW? As a note, it can be fast depending on how you play and the map you are playing (At least in Shadow Magic, only just got the others).

Reply #41 Top

While this game may be in the same spirit as MoM, it is not an heir. If anything it is a bastard child that is looked down upon by the royal family, but found a loving home amongst a humble middle class family. This child will never reach the glory of being one of the best 4x games ever (according to MoM fans).

Why? Because Stardock doesn't make the same kind of games that Simtex does. The same differences between MoO and Gal Civ apply similarly to MoM vs E:WoM. The gameplay is similar but the player focuses on and enjoys very different gameplay mechanics in Stardock's games. I personally don't like the way SD does game design, but thats a personal preference. I can say that with its own power, as far as I have seen, SD alone cannot change enough mechanics to make this game extremely popular so that people love it the same or more than MoM.

However, the key ingredient here is the mods. If I, for example, have enough control over the game using mods to make a MoM 2.0, then its a whole different story. We will see once the python code comes out how much we can mod, and I am sure we can get a group together to make a Mod for E:WoM that is a spiritual successor and subsequently pull off a radical democratic election where we throw out the ancient despot that rules the land and rise that bastard child to the throne, against all odds and expectations!

Reply #42 Top

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 40


Out of curiousity, what was complicated about AoW? As a note, it can be fast depending on how you play and the map you are playing (At least in Shadow Magic, only just got the others).

Well, every units have their own unique role (with unusual traits and skills), every race has their own strategy, every magic has it's own purpose. It is complex. A good game, I say. But, I can't stand with the Tactical Battle when you have a lot of units involved. It is too long for my taste, waiting for the AI shooting my units, while my archers do a lot of miss shoot because of obstacle. Then, there are a lot of summon. I can't even decides what kind of summon I should choose. There are pegasus, Lurker, sprite, etc. While they are annoying when at the AI hand, they are easily died in my hand. In short, it is a good game with a steep learning curve, I need to open AOW websites to learn the strategy (not the basic) so I can enjoy it again like before (years ago).

I think for the complexity, AOW is very complex, while Elemental is very simple for the moment. MOM, while for the whole concept is simple, but the magic system has the right propotion for the 4x magic game.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting _PawelS_, reply 24

Is Elemental: War of Magic a Spiritual Heir to the Master of Magic lineage?


Definitely not. No matter if you think it's a good game or not, it's definitely a very different one than MoM. Both are fantasy TBS games with Civilization-like elements, but this is where the similarities end. All the features that make MoM great - races, special units, sophisticated spells, heroes with their special abilities, item creation, merchants and mercenaries, nodes and ruins defended by powerful units, Myrror etc. - are missing in Elemental.

Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is much more similar to MoM, but still I wouldn't call it a spiritual successor.

 

+1 My thoughts exactly.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Brainsucker, reply 42

Quoting Gwenio1, reply 40

Out of curiousity, what was complicated about AoW? As a note, it can be fast depending on how you play and the map you are playing (At least in Shadow Magic, only just got the others).

Well, every units have their own unique role (with unusual traits and skills), every race has their own strategy, every magic has it's own purpose. It is complex. A good game, I say. But, I can't stand with the Tactical Battle when you have a lot of units involved. It is too long for my taste, waiting for the AI shooting my units, while my archers do a lot of miss shoot because of obstacle. Then, there are a lot of summon. I can't even decides what kind of summon I should choose. There are pegasus, Lurker, sprite, etc. While they are annoying when at the AI hand, they are easily died in my hand. In short, it is a good game with a steep learning curve, I need to open AOW websites to learn the strategy (not the basic) so I can enjoy it again like before (years ago).

Looks like you like simple games, where units/races are all simple and have similar abilities. This explains why you like EWOM and probably galciv.

Many of us (most?) prefer more variety in the game so playing Race A is a different experience from playing Race B.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting UmbralAngel, reply 41
 

Why? Because Stardock doesn't make the same kind of games that Simtex does. The same differences between MoO and Gal Civ apply similarly to MoM vs E:WoM. The gameplay is similar but the player focuses on and enjoys very different gameplay mechanics in Stardock's games. I personally don't like the way SD does game design, but thats a personal preference. I can say that with its own power, as far as I have seen, SD alone cannot change enough mechanics to make this game extremely popular so that people love it the same or more than MoM.

 

 

Will not or cannot ?  :D

Reply #46 Top

My answer is that if you are truly looking to a game to be the next MoM- this aint it. I don't believe this game will ever be very close to MoM as it would take an almost complete overhaul of the game to do so. They are just nothing alike in execution of a 4x fantasy game. I am disappointed and frankly shocked that Stardock would release this as it is.

The areas that MoM (and what people want in a MoM type game) excels at are the great variation of units, races, spells, heroes and abilities. This game has very. very little of any of this. Yeah sure the city building aspect of the game may be better....couldn't care less, not why I buy these type of games. I want intriguing races and characters- NOT what I got. The races are not differentiated enough at all, and are just bland. That's a good word for this game-BLAND. All of the main heroes (the MoM equivalent of your main hero/wizard not sure what they call them in game) all look, for the most part, like humans with different colored skin/hair style and clothing. If you want to make your own...will the same thing- bland looking humans models to use. The game doesn't even feel "fantasy" in this regard. These guys could have stepped out of medieval England for the most part. There is one of two demi human looking guys but again BLAND and lame.  I call it as I see it.

I am just surprised that after attempting to acquire the license to MoM Stardock made this as their "Fantasy " 4x game. Um, How? It is just so BLAND when compared to MoM.

I'll bet that Stardock is already completely sick and tired of seeing the three letters-MoM. When this game is made to be similar to MoM it won't be the Devs who do it; it will be the Community. I do predict that a damn good Mod for MoM will be made, by the community . Hopefully many of them. However,  when all is done by the Devs this game will have little resemblance to MoM. What they do make may be good game (Need A LOT more imagination) but it will be THEIR game.

In answer to a previous post - this game is nowhere as good as Dominions 3 at current time!.  At least not in the ways that I enjoy fantasy games such as this (as noted above). Had to mention that, couldn't believe it when I read it.

Many others will state this better than I but I had to put my 2cents out. I am shocked and saddened by this game.

Reply #47 Top

All I'm going to say is I didn't buy this game for the game 'as is'.  I bought it for what the modding community will bring to the table, once they get rolling.

 

Reply #48 Top

I say: Spiritual followup: Yes. Close to MoM experience: No.

Main Reasons: Artwork & type of spells

I really hope they Stardock will produce an addon that will drive the game more towards Master Of Magic (the best TBS game ever produced in my opinion).

Screw 3D. Screw "up to date presentation". A game sux you in if the ambience is right, and the music/sound effects are immersive. It doesnt matter if you have full 3D or can zoom in and out seemingless. Those things are pushed by the press and the big publishers.

Reply #49 Top

^^  The fact that people still love MoM today is a testament to the last part of your post.  3d graphics?  Nope...  Hell, MoM's graphics aren't even remotely decent by today's standards, but it doesn't matter because it gives you everything else you need and your imagination fills in the rest.

Reply #50 Top

@OP I am one in that same group of having played MOM 15 years ago and have eagerly waited for this game to be released, seems there are a great many of us on this forum :-)

In addressing your question:  MOM was (in my opinion) a masterpiece of design (even with warts like a flying paladin SOD).  Meaning it supported a huge variant of functions, paths and options for play without becoming cumbersome-impersonal or presenting a huge learning curve.

Elemental is a Beta product at this point.  Its hard to evaluate as the design isnt done.  I personally feel that when all is said and done (1+ year from now) it will have a revolutionary approach to this genre of game (not a Stardock fanboy, although I own Gal Civ). I base my opinion of the potential of what I have seen so far in terms of raw material, guess i must like the Beta since I have played it every night since its release. It feels different, not MOM, not CIV but something else, only time will tell if it becomes something solid and sharp with its own voice.

My gutt feeling though is when Elemental is done it wont feel/play like MOM, as such not sure any hereditary-title analogy will come true. This makes me sad, as I have waited a long time for MOM 2, but this based purely on my expectations.  The nice thing though is having seen the what Modders can do (thank you to people who mentioned the Civ 4 mod in a diff thread as a MOM alternate) in the long run someone will make Elemental behave like MOM eventually. 

Good forum, nice to know alot of old time PC strat gamers still exist