Tactical battle is the same reason I actually wanted this game, otherwise I would have bought Dominion 3

What was great in MoM

Every sword gave you 30% chance of scoring a hit (2 layers : number of swords, hit rate).

Every shield gave you 30% chance of deflecting a hit

Only on that you could act with two manners : improve the percentage, or have more swords/shield.

So, when you add 3 swords, what was better ? adding 10% (+1 to hit) or one more ? If you had a hero with 8 swords, it was definitey better to get a +1 to hit weapon or enchantment.

Was it better to have a stack of 4 figures with 2 swords or 3 with 3 swords (every figure can die with 1 hit unless there are elite IIRC)

It was really simple to understand.

Then we add the abilities:

- First strike!

- Cancel first strike

- Poison (X attacks before everything else matched against resistance).

- +1 to hit

- instant death on certain hits (I always liked to have a +3  to hit bow of death or something trying to kill huge beasts).

Very simple to understand, yet you could do tons of things.

So far in elemental I don't think this exists. I think if you have 9 attack, you will do 1-9. Makes only one layer...

Someone noticed a rock/paper/scissor system... I didn't notice it. I will look closer at it. But I have rather use weapons for cosmetic reasons

Listen to this guy.

If that "dull and repetitive" action is the most effective way to defeat the enemy, ABSOLUTELY the game designers are to blame for a flawed system!  I am positive Brad and the other devs would agree.  What a silly argument.

Elemental isn't just a turn based game, it's a 4x game.  4x games are about world building, they are not about tactical combat.  Think for a moment about how horrible GC2 would be with tactical battles.  As it is now, you prepare a fleet and send it against your opponents fleet and watch them fight in an awesome cinematic battle.  

Imagine instead if you went into the battle and saw a little line of ships on your side, and a little line of ships on your opponents side...then, you click one ship, move it two squares ahead...click the next ship, move it two squares ahead, click the next ship, move it two squares ahead...booorrrrring *snore*.

The battles in a 4x game are just a numbers game.  Attack strength, defense strength, and a die roll.  The problem with tactical battles is now you are seeing every little die roll instead of having the computer figure it out and then show you a cinema of what happened.  Of course it's boring...!

I'll take fleet preparation, and then exciting automatic battles that I can watch any day.   This can also serve as my plea to Brad...please, no tactical battles in Galciv 3.

Meh, Master of Orion 2, one of my favorite 4x games ever had a very good tactical battle system. Tactical battles do not have to mean boring.

Why in the world would you argue against better tactical combat? Master of Magic had great tactical combat and we dont.

I would say that would be a relevant point if in Elemental you would prepare your armies and watch them battle it out in an awesome cinematic battle....but that's obviously not the case.

That doesn't really make any sense, you missed my point entirely.  I'm using GC2 as an argument as to why tactical battles hinder rather than help a 4X game.  

It makes perfect sense, because in that absence nothing is left.  The reason why tactical battles would be a hindrance in GC2 is because it would detract from that cinematic epicness...that doesn't exist in Elemental.  So what would be left?

It doesn't matter anyways, as people have time and time again pointed out many games in the past in the same genre/type have done tactical battles.

I enjoy placing my units in a straight line and pressing end turn till they run into said line and get slaughtered as well.

Not really.

Tactical battles are one of the features that set apart this strategy game from others so no, it wont be going anywhere. Yeah the TB's can be fun at first, but as the game goes on you end up doing the same thing over and over. When you have a feature, you make it more fun by the amount of interesting choices that you can make during said feature. As it is, I don't see many interesting choices asides thinking what I should nuke down first with my magic as the units marched towards me.

TB needs more things that can add choices that wouldn't necessarly make the game "complicated". Abilities being one of the most popular ideas from what I've seen would go a long way by themselves. Just imagine having an ability that you could use 1 time per fight and that when you used it did something real cool but left you vulnerable or weak for a turn. Every turn you'd be wondering if it was the right time to use it or risk passing up the best chance you had. That to me sounds fun, and definitely not "complex".

Although if you buy a "Strategy" game it means you want to "strategize" and choose from different available options in order to outwit your opponent right? So all these options could work in many ways and thats what makes them fun for many people not to mention counter strats etc. Thats how a strategy game works and that sounds complex to me.

That's an entirely valid play style. It's supported, though. You can choose to have the computer figure it out by clicking a little button. For those of us who would prefer a more engaging experience, though, there's tactical combat. And it's currently rather lackluster.

And what's silly about it? It's the player making the decision to pursue an effective rather than a fun strategy. The game designers have provided you with options, don't try and blame them because you insist on choosing the one you don't enjoy. I guess I should blame the devs because the game isn't much fun if I design a map and stick the AI on a single square island too.

Are there people really arguing against making TB better? Lol if you don't want it to be interesting them use the auto-battle.

Tactical battles in a game with good tactical battle mechanics are about proper use of skills, magic, positioning, LOS, breaking down walls, and so on.

The problem isn't with tactical combat. It makes most games it's in better. Elemental simply doesn't have the same mechanics that make it work well. Few units have skills (basically none of which you can actually produce in town). There's no LOS mechanics or walls. The attack/damage system is simplistic and highly random.

The way the game is set up right now doesn't lend itself well to an interesting tactical combat situation. Mostly I use it because the auto-resolve AI is really bad at keeping new champions alive, whereas in tactical I can protect them. But it's really not interesting or particularly fun to do so compared to doing the same thing in AoW:SM.

I want to know if there are plans to improve the tactical battles or not.  The current "Launch Week Status" does not list it as something they are working on.  If this is going to be a 4x game based around auto-resolve, that's fine, but I don't want the game anymore. and want to invoke my gamers bill of rights on my unopened LE box.  If they do plan to improve tactical combat, then I will hold onto it.  Basically, if I wanted to play a game without tactical combat, I would have chosen something like Dominions or Europa Universalis instead. 

I bought Elemental specifically because I was expecting a rich and fun tactical experience.  Without it I'd rather just not play it at all. 

Believe me, I'm not hating on tactical battles altogether, I like them very much under most circumstances...like a war strategy game.  But in a 4X, war is only one of several ways to play and win.  I'd love to see as much work and thought put into the economic, trade, and diplomatic systems (not that those things are lacking in Elemental).

See the following thread:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/393348

We talk about initiative, flanking, weapon class...

There are a lot of ways that tactical combat could be improved.  If we're going to stick with humanoid troops using standard weapons, abilities I'd recommend would be things like:

• New building type - Molten forge - when built allows your archers to be equipped with flaming arrows (selected in the unit editor).  When flaming arrows hit the ground, that tile is lit on fire.  Any unit remaining or passing through that square will suffer additional damage each turn they stand in it.  Rain causes the arrows to be far less effective, and therefore the flames are extinguished within a turn or two of being fired.
• New troop ability - Piercing shot - when an enemy unit is within 3 tiles of this troop, they suffer double damage from their arrows.
• New troop ability - Pikemen.  Pikemen are allowed to attack troops that are two tiles ahead of them, even if there is another unit in the way.   They are ineffective in close combat however, and suffer a penalty of 1/2 their attack power when attacking an adjacent enemy. 
• New troop ability - Cyclone attack.  Once per battle this troop can use its ability to attack all enemy units that are within the 9 adjacent squares at the same time without risk of counterattack.  This attack does half damage.
• New troop ability - Spear wall - Cavalry moving into a square adjacent to this unit suffer damage from the spear wall.
• New troop ability - Blinding speed - this units first attack each turn can not be countered.
• New troop ability - Arc attack - usable only with polearms.  This unit attacks the three squares in front of it with each swing.  Only the opponent directly in front of the attack can counterattack.
• New troop ability - Stunning blow- usable only with hammers.  When struck by this weapon, the affected unit has X% chance to be stunned and unable to act for one turn.
• New troop ability - Charge - must be on horse.  For each square traveled prior to attacking with this unit, add 10% additional damage to the attack.  (example.  If the troop moves 3 squares prior to attacking that turn, add 30% damage)
• New troop ability - Avenger - this troop gains additional damage on the turn after a neighboring friendly troop is killed.
• New troop ability - Shield Wall - this troop's movement is reduced to 1 per turn while in formation, but it is immune to all normal missile fire until the ability is turned off.  The troop is also unable to attack while in this formation.

This is a very limited selection of abilities, most of which are used in other TBS games. They are rough ideas and should not be taken literally. I'm sure balance would need to be applied by either toning down/up certain abilities or making them more or less cost prohibitive.  Some abilities should cost more so that you create specialized units to perform these functions.

There are also other less specific features such as flanking attacks and automatic free attacks against any unit leaving an adjacent square (so that moving out of combat to chase someone else comes with a penalty).  I have played a lot of tactical games in my day and these are just some basic options. 

If its only about kingdom building then why have tactical battles at all?  Doesn't that just seem a bit silly to you?  Maybe even pointless!  If you don't like complicated: that is what auto resolve is for.  It doesn't get simpler than that.....

Isn't that why there is the Auto Resolve option?  For people who want a simple game?  I agree with the mod part though....

Yes, I think that is kind of sad though   I tried it, found it dull, boring, repetative, and never played it again.

I would be happy if hitpoints were increased by something like a factor of 5. I realize that it would prolong battles, but the problem right now is that most units act like glass cannons and there's never protracted battles with proper troop lines or flanking.

Throughout the beta we were told improving the battles would be the focus of the first 30 days after release. So presumably so. And as people have noted if you dig into the engine there's things like different damage types already in there, so the groundwork would seem to be there.