Demiansky

Unit design is a toothless timesink

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Unit design is a toothless timesink

from Elemental Forums

What the title says.  Tactical battles are so simplistic that designing a specialized unit is, well, not really even possible.  If I'm aiming for autocalculation, I design for getting the most efficient "unit weight" for my buck.  If I'm designing to be effective in tactical battles, I just pile on as much whoop-ass I can.  Get a new tech?  Add additional increment of whoop-ass to all newly trained units.  What.  A.  Timesink.  Isn't this what we were all dreading from the start might happen?  And now that Stardock has changed their tune on the significance of tactical battles, we can continue to expect unit design to be meaningless. 

This theme runs throughout Elemental and is the biggest persistent flaw.  There are plenty of decisions to make, but very often there are a few obvious "best" decisions" each game or, at the least, the best decision is very obvious.  What does this leave us with?  Lots of busy work.

Personally, I think unit design beyond minor cosmetics should be left to modders and the game should return to Master of Magic's tried and true method.  First, make tactical combat meaningful.  If you have to, go ahead and just plagiarize Master of Magic's tactical combat to a tee.  In other words, give units conspicuous special abilities that have specialized relevance on the battlefield.  Then, add plenty of core units in the game that certain races and civilizations have access to and that become unlocked when you gain a special resource or a certain tech (or can be hired as mercenaries as special moments).  Then, use the modding tools to create a vast resevoir of unique units that can be shuffled into each new game to fit certain "niches."  Some games you might see Lizard Man Spear Throwers show up at your city.  Other games you might see Gnoll Grapplers trudging through the country side.      

As of now, however, explicit unit design in Elemental is a drag and a source of imbalance: another feature that produces a burst of intrigue within a casual onlooker, but damages the game.

elemental
311,929 views 83 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah as I've said in other threads: special abilities are the way to make combat interesting, and differentiate soldiers in meaningful ways. Get a cavalry charge ability if you have a horse, first strike if you have a lance, cleave with a greatsword, and so on - ideally at least one ability per unit, although some units could combine multiple abilities in interesting ways if they were linked to different kinds of equipment. Other abilities would be mutually exclusive since they use the same equipment piece (i.e. weapon) - this would encourage combined arms, that is to say: it'd create actual differences between units, strengths and weaknesses that make you want to use more than one type of unit.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Civfreak, reply 24
I really like the Unit Design concept, its a really cool feature but as of now there really isn't much depth to it. I also think that it reeks with potential, and there many many things that could be done improve the current system into something that can end up offering more interesting choices than just worrying about being ranged or melee.

One thing that could be done to spice up unit design could be to add special abilities to soldiers related to the weapon they wield. For example, if your unit had a Spear, you could have an ability that allowed you to attack and avoid getting countered. When soldiers level up, they could get acess to a new ability related to the spear, so on so forth for other weapon types.

So that idea is nice and all, but theres still so much that could be done. Another thing that could add some more interesting choices could be the Packs. These packs could be used to mix and match with weapons to form cool effects. For example take the first spear example, if you equipped said unit with a spear there could be a "Specialist Pack" and with it you would unlock a Special Ability related to the weapon the unit is wielding. In the case if a Spear user, it could be "Form SpearWall" activated ability that increased effectiveness against cavalry units.

These are just some examples of what could be done with unit design, and although its just one I'm sure people can come up with many more effects that would make designing units not a chore, but a set of interesting choices.

 

I really like this idea. 

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

These complaints are legitimate, but can be fixed with balance patches.  Give it time (and probably a good bit of time to be honest), but they'll get it right in the end, I'm sure.

 

 

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

We need (at min) crushing, piercing, slashing and magical damage. Resistances would differ based on armor types and materials used (crystals could decrease damage received from magic-based attacks for example).

 

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Obviously the game has a multitude of problems currently but I think unit flavor is a huge one.  The warnings signs for me is that Stardock seem intent on running everything off raw stats and numbers.  Weapon does X damage, next weapon does X+2, etc.  The worrying thing for me is that they seem to like these sorts of system whereas I find them very 1990ish.

In 2010 strategy games have moved on and almost all decent strategy games being released in the last 5-10 years have their unit-flavor driven by special abilities.  Can a unit system designed around special abilities and unit flavor as much as raw stats make that much difference ? - Hell Yeah. 

This probably sounds kinda condescending but sometimes I wonder how much games like AOW: Shadow Magic, MoM, Heroes 3/5 and Kings Bounty (new ones) the devs have played, and would encourage any team members that haven't invested time in these games to go back and have a serious play.  Obviously those games are quite different to elemental and I respect that (I'm not asking for clones of these games in ANY way), but each provides interesting and far superior examples of how to implement a flavor-some unit system than what Elemental provides.  In fact many of them are light years ahead.

Take the new Kings bounty games for example - I love the tactical combat in them but its because of all the great passive and active special abilities that make units truly unique.  On average each unit would have 1-3 passives and 1-3 actives in that game.   If you took away all the special abilities in that game and just left the raw numbers, it would go (IMHO, at least the tactical side of it) from a 9.5/10 to about a 2/10. 

The spells are another area of serious concern in elemental where lack of flavor and strategic importance is readily evident.  I won't go into this as its been shouted from the rooftops by many, many people already.

I just really hope that Stardock can also see how bland and boring a lot of these systems currently are - because if they can't I fear Elemental's only success will be in its ability to allow modders who do understand these things to turn it into something more interesting.

 

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Austinvn, reply 26
Yeah as I've said in other threads: special abilities are the way to make combat interesting, and differentiate soldiers in meaningful ways. Get a cavalry charge ability if you have a horse, first strike if you have a lance, cleave with a greatsword, and so on - ideally at least one ability per unit, although some units could combine multiple abilities in interesting ways if they were linked to different kinds of equipment. Other abilities would be mutually exclusive since they use the same equipment piece (i.e. weapon) - this would encourage combined arms, that is to say: it'd create actual differences between units, strengths and weaknesses that make you want to use more than one type of unit.

 

This.  Seriously.  It would add much needed strategy to this game.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Spyndel, reply 16
There's really only a sampling of the things they eventually want to get into the mix in the game right now.  When damage vs armor types are made more transparent, that will help. In addition some units have special abilities, and they wanted to do more of these. I can easily see research-able magic items or kits that grant special tactical abilities to units, like the assassination ability, or that smiting ability some heroes have. If magic resistances are made transparent, I can see gems that give resistances of certain types, but that would probably accompany a significant overhaul of the magic system.

 

 

I just played a game where I came across a sweet beach front property on the other side of the map, that I would be able to build a city close enough to build a harbor, and still be able to claim the valuable horse and crystal resources nearby. I wanted it. But it was close to another civ, and I had no idea when they might claim it. It was far away though, and through some wilderness that had some free roaming spiders and bandits.

I decided to build a specially trained pioneer just for the situation, that was maxed out on speed items. But I had no escorts available, and they would have just slowed him down anyways. So I gave him just enough armor and a good enough weapon, to survive any incidental encounters he couldn't out maneuver, without adding any training time.

Elsewhere in the map, I had a lone champion in a city influence and out of move points, without adequate armor, that was in imminent danger from a swarm of spiders that would probably attack next turn, but I didn't want to delay construction of my super pioneer. So I altered the design to cost just a little bit less, by using a magic crystal item instead of a costly kit to give speed, enough to have enough left over that turn to buy my endangered hero a torso piece that provided enough protection to shrug off most of the blows that otherwise would have overwhelmed him en masse.

 

A highly specific situation to be sure, but that's what the designer buys you... maximum flexibility and control at any given time. Not to mention the satisfaction of defining your own story, not letting someone else do it for you.  And it will get better when more options are introduced to the game.

These are all interesting examples, but also entirely outside tactical combat.  What you are describing is akin to the usefulness of Galactic Civ's unit designer: only relevant on the strategy map. 

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

I love being able to create units. But it needs to be way way more in depth. Tactical battles overall meed much more.

Say like "Disgaea: Hour of Darkness", unit creation and in depth tactical battle done fun, deep and awesome. Although I don't expect this game to go that far into tactics considering everything else going on. But "Disgaea" had unit creation to a point and is an example of the possibilities.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know about you but I usually have problems acquiring iron. So I have to buy it from others with a hefty price. This forces me to really think what I put on my troopers, because they can't wield all the best stuff I know.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Special Abilities = Fun and Strategic

Raw Stats = Effective yet Bland

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Just chiming in that I agree that special abilities are needed.  Tactical battles are far too boring and pointless without them.  I've always been a tactical battle fan, but in Elemental they feel grindy and repetitive. 

 

I hope Stardock takes notice of this thread.  There are a lot of good ideas in here that would make combat so much more enjoyable.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

I was really hoping the unit designer would be more like MOO2, where you had actual decisions to make. Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 is just busy work as the OP said.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with a lot that has been said here and unit customisation is one of the big selling points for me in these type of games, though I wasn't really expecting too much of it from the get-go. Specialisations seems like a good idea and I personally do have a fondness for the cosmetic and gimmicky side to designing units so am hopeful more "fluff" will be added over time. I really liked the GC2 system of ship design and with mods like kryo's hulls I couldn't separate myself from it! It definitely does need a boost to its strategic importance though. Bigger teeth.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

It would be easy to spice it up..

You could make all maces/warhammers have a chance for stun.

Have different bows... one with quick speed but low damage.. another with higher damage and a chance to pass through to a second tile but is slower and less accurate.

The pike should also give you a chance to pass through to a second tile.(also like that idea of the spear wall)

Also there needs to be more restriction on armor for what weapons you are using... This has to be the only game with a bowman that wears plate armor.

To use axes, armor could also be limited but maybe a charge/attack ability to be given to the units that use one.

Maybe add some slings to have a blunt ranged weapon.(that could also stun)

 

Of course the  thought of adding different type of damages would be good too..   blunt , slashing and piercing

Also the different types of armor should specialize in what type of damage it stops.  chain would be good against piercing and slashing, while plate will give the biggest bonus against blunt weapons...  Leather will give you better results against magic. Of course the heavier the armor the slower your movement.

 

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

All this is why mods for this game are going to rock (if/when the technical problems with the engine get sorted out).

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

People saying, "Give them time", but i thought their stance on tactical combat was it isn't supposed to be very deep?

(which i find to be bs)

I also grew up playing and loving MOM. You simply cannot ignore what games in the past have done. They -set the bar-. Ignoring it would be like saying, "Hey, I am going to make the best MMO in the world and more people are going to play it than WOW!" and just throwing your money down the toilet because you refuse to do what others have done right. You can still create your unique game, but wake up!

MOM did it right, period. It was fun fighting in MOM. FUN is a good thing, no? (Heck, I even liked the combat in all heroes games, warlords, age of wonders, even kohan!)

For such a complex game, it sure doesn't feel very complex at the moment. As people have pointed out. Not much choice in what you build in cities, you pretty much build everything there is. Where is the racial limitations and bonuses? Champs being weak, uninspired, generic... Snore.

Cmon, please don't squander the potential this game has to -one up- the classics of old. Pay attention to what they did right and get it together!!!

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

personally i prefer stats and game systems to special abilities. the latter seems tacked on, the former is integrated.

 

game needs stats for magic resistance, separate defence versus missiles (you can't parry an arrow) and i still hate the whole concept of combat speed. just play it straight and give us a simple movement speed stat, no of attacks stat that make sense and are obvious in their meaning at first glance.

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

I strongly agree with most of the posts in this thread.  I really think tactical combat and units need to be far more varied.  Compared to MoM, AoW, King's Bounty, MoO2 etc., I find the the tactical combat and units relatively bland. Perhaps this is a bad analogy, but comparing the tactical combat in Elemental to MoM is like comparing the card game 'War' (split playing card deck between two players, flip top card of each deck, highest card wins) to Magic the gathering (endless variety with seemingly limitless strategic possibilities).  Elemental has so much promise, but the bland and somewhat tedious tactical combat is disappointing and greatly lessens my enjoyment.  I think improving tactical combat/unit variety alone would ensure that Elemental doesn't leave my hard drive for many, many years. 

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Stupid question: Can I upgrade existing basic units when the equipment is available, e.g. scouts to heavy infantry?

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

Unit designs is not much more different than the ship designing of GalCiv2. What's the big deal? You can spend time creating some unique characters or you can take pot luck. The only real important things is the combat and defensive items you choose to place on your unit just like it was in GalCiv2 when you picked your weapons and shields everything else was just cosmetics. You could spend hours creating unique ship types with the same weapons and shields as another ship or you could spend seconds or minutes. I don't see the reason to complain here. It's also simular to Alpha Centauri as your research improved you got new stuff to put on your units. The game would make you templates just like this or you could make some of your own. That was part of the fun of the game to me just like it is here making up my own.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting brainiac74, reply 44
I strongly agree with most of the posts in this thread.  I really think tactical combat and units need to be far more varied.  Compared to MoM, AoW, King's Bounty, MoO2 etc., I find the the tactical combat and units relatively bland. Perhaps this is a bad analogy, but comparing the tactical combat in Elemental to MoM is like comparing the card game 'War' (split playing card deck between two players, flip top card of each deck, highest card wins) to Magic the gathering (endless variety with seemingly limitless strategic possibilities).  Elemental has so much promise, but the bland and somewhat tedious tactical combat is disappointing and greatly lessens my enjoyment.  I think improving tactical combat/unit variety alone would ensure that Elemental doesn't leave my hard drive for many, many years. 

I'd like you to explains to me IN DETAIL what is the difference in the combat system you see here and MOM?

I personally don't really see any. What I do see different is is the COLOR of the combat not the actual engine of it. You actually get MORE units in this game than in MOM. 10 units with up to 18 troups in each unit. MOM only gave you 9 units and only up to 8-10 troups in a handful of them like spearmen, swordsmen, archers and wizards. Next you either stood your ground or marched forward to battle. You cast your spells each turn and continued until one side was dead or the 25 turn limit ran out.

Elemental is nowhere near as colorful as MOM in the combat dept I will say that in defense of MOM. But, the rest is so near identical I just don't see the difference unless you want to bring in the spellbook and how few spells Elemental has vs MOM. But, let's face it MOM had a few select spellls that got used all the time and the rest became cosmetic but were hardly ever used.

It IS the COLOR of MOM that stands out in combat though not much of anything else. The music is livelier and the particle effects of the spells and combat sounds got you into the battle moreso than in Elemental, but, combat wise it's pretty much the same in every respect.

So what players are wanting are the COLORS and SOUNDS of MOM's combat that's why many are calling Elementals combat bland.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting rossanderson48, reply 47

I'd like you to explains to me IN DETAIL what is the difference in the combat system you see here and MOM?

I personally don't really see any. What I do see different is is the COLOR of the combat not the actual engine of it. You actually get MORE units in this game than in MOM. 10 units with up to 18 troups in each unit. MOM only gave you 9 units and only up to 8-10 troups in a handful of them like spearmen, swordsmen, archers and wizards. Next you either stood your ground or marched forward to battle. You cast your spells each turn and continued until one side was dead or the 25 turn limit ran out.

Elemental is nowhere near as colorful as MOM in the combat dept I will say that in defense of MOM. But, the rest is so near identical I just don't see the difference unless you want to bring in the spellbook and how few spells Elemental has vs MOM. But, let's face it MOM had a few select spellls that got used all the time and the rest became cosmetic but were hardly ever used.

It IS the COLOR of MOM that stands out in combat though not much of anything else. The music is livelier and the particle effects of the spells and combat sounds got you into the battle moreso than in Elemental, but, combat wise it's pretty much the same in every respect.

So what players are wanting are the COLORS and SOUNDS of MOM's combat that's why many are calling Elementals combat bland.

You mean other then how magic was a bigger deal, how damage numbers weren't so wildly and unpredictably volatile, how a lot more units had special abilities, and how terrain matters more?

I mean AoW 2 has walls and LOS mechanics. Tactical Combat is a drastically different thing when you suddenly have guys up on a wall and you need to break the walls down while being shot at.

Elemental TC right now is mostly just line my guys up and wail on your guys.

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top


What the title says.  Tactical battles are so simplistic that designing a specialized unit is, well, not really even possible.  If I'm aiming for autocalculation, I design for getting the most efficient "unit weight" for my buck.  If I'm designing to be effective in tactical battles, I just pile on as much whoop-ass I can.  Get a new tech?  Add additional increment of whoop-ass to all newly trained units.  What.  A.  Timesink.  Isn't this what we were all dreading from the start might happen?  And now that Stardock has changed their tune on the significance of tactical battles, we can continue to expect unit design to be meaningless. 

This theme runs throughout Elemental and is the biggest persistent flaw.  There are plenty of decisions to make, but very often there are a few obvious "best" decisions" each game or, at the least, the best decision is very obvious.  What does this leave us with?  Lots of busy work.

Personally, I think unit design beyond minor cosmetics should be left to modders and the game should return to Master of Magic's tried and true method.  First, make tactical combat meaningful.  If you have to, go ahead and just plagiarize Master of Magic's tactical combat to a tee.  In other words, give units conspicuous special abilities that have specialized relevance on the battlefield.  Then, add plenty of core units in the game that certain races and civilizations have access to and that become unlocked when you gain a special resource or a certain tech (or can be hired as mercenaries as special moments).  Then, use the modding tools to create a vast resevoir of unique units that can be shuffled into each new game to fit certain "niches."  Some games you might see Lizard Man Spear Throwers show up at your city.  Other games you might see Gnoll Grapplers trudging through the country side.      

As of now, however, explicit unit design in Elemental is a drag and a source of imbalance: another feature that produces a burst of intrigue within a casual onlooker, but damages the game.

i dont agree

 

the problem is the lack of overall balance and the weakness of ai

 

when that is solved unit designing is fine

 

the problem is now too often you swim in resources and dont need the BEST army to conquer enemies

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting SwerydAss, reply 40
It would be easy to spice it up..

You could make all maces/warhammers have a chance for stun.

Have different bows... one with quick speed but low damage.. another with higher damage and a chance to pass through to a second tile but is slower and less accurate.

The pike should also give you a chance to pass through to a second tile.(also like that idea of the spear wall)

Also there needs to be more restriction on armor for what weapons you are using... This has to be the only game with a bowman that wears plate armor.

To use axes, armor could also be limited but maybe a charge/attack ability to be given to the units that use one.

Maybe add some slings to have a blunt ranged weapon.(that could also stun)

 

Of course the  thought of adding different type of damages would be good too..   blunt , slashing and piercing

Also the different types of armor should specialize in what type of damage it stops.  chain would be good against piercing and slashing, while plate will give the biggest bonus against blunt weapons...  Leather will give you better results against magic. Of course the heavier the armor the slower your movement.

 

 

Adding my voice to this...

Something should be done...