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The Epic Feel Is Lacking: Small Armies and DnD Parties

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The Epic Feel Is Lacking: Small Armies and DnD Parties

from Elemental Forums

I've been concerned about this for months.  In fact, it caused me to sit out the beta and delay my preorder until last week.  And after playing for most of yesterday evening and getting deep into one sandbox game, I realized I was right to be concerned.

The game lacks an epic feel.  Most of the game feels like me and a small adventuring party running around conquering other empires. (How 4-6 guys could take over an entire empire is beyond me, but it's pretty routine in Elemental.)  The armies are simply too small to give the game much of a grand strategy feel.  I know the culprit: tactical battles.  But I don't know why the presentation has to emphasize the idea that I have a few soldiers, fewer adventurers, and a couple of hundred peasants in my "grand fantasy empire."

An infamous early screenshot showed a dragon dealing with what looks like hundreds of armored soldiers.  I have seen nothing like that in Elemental (but I knew not to really).  Battles are between a few units on each side.  In the early game, it's my channeler casting chain lightning and killing 4 spiders (or whatever) over and over.  The few troops walking around with her feel like bodyguards or traveling companions, not an army.

The game never feels like I'm ruling an empire.  There aren't enough cities.  It feels like a small band of people gathering together for protection; a scenario not unlike the classic "DnD party finds a refugee camp and does quests to help" adventure.

I'm not sure how to fix this.  You could change the graphical presentation to make soldiers look more like units than individuals (something that sort of happens later in the game, which only emphasizes the small scale of the early game).  It could be more clear than 1 pop unit in a city isn't just 1 person.  Heroes could be scaled back to where they aren't slaughtering what might be considered a squad or regiment of troops.

This is my major disappointment with Elemental.  I just don't feel like I'm playing a grand strategy game.  I feel more like I'm coordinating a couple of small adventuring groups around a tiny country with a few villages here and there where I can recruit other party members.

It really eliminates immersion.

 

elemental
384,815 views 133 replies
Reply #126 from Elemental Forums Top

Guy, did you play Galciv when it first came out?  It took a while for Stardock to perfect that game.  Buying a game from Stardock isn't like buying a mario disk for your wii.  It's a long term relationship with constant communication from the developers about fixes and additions.  Seriously, with what other game company can you actually speak to the CEO and address your concerns, AND have him answer??  I have no doubt that Elemental will follow a similar path as Galciv, and constantly improve.

 

Quoting jscott991, reply 98
My post was not intended to imply the game was unfinished or that I was demanding a refund.  And I don't think profligate was demanding a refund because of my complaint, which has now been lost in the "finished/unfinished" nonsense.

I'm surprised Frogboy came in and addressed that aspect, but criticism is usually drowned out by the flames of both sides.

I still think the game would "feel" better if it was made clear that each unit was not a single man and each pop in a city was not a single person.  The economics and scale would make a lot more sense.

Of course, then a single adventurer couldn't just slaughter an entire army, but that's fine with me too.

The cost of items in the store is also strange.  I can get a horse for "free" when building a unit (it costs just a horse), but it costs 100 gold to give my heroes and sovereign one.  It is almost like two different games are going on and they don't mesh well: a Civ-type strategy game and a very old school (almost FF1 level) RPG.  The concept of an empire and a single person doesn't mesh well.  Combine this with all the epic-level terminology (emperors, kings, kingdoms, empires, etc.) and something feels off.

Frankly, this is the least immersive TBS strategy game I've played.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't play well, or can't be a decent game, but it really limits its longterm appeal for me.

This is the last post I'll say on this subject.  It's disappointing how this turned out because I was really hoping for a grand fantasy strategy game (GalCiv with magic) and it didn't quite happen.

Reply #127 from Elemental Forums Top

There does exist an intersect of people who (a) are Stardock fans, (b ) are dissatisfied with the launch state of Elemental in some form or another, and (c) want or expect Elemental to become the better game it can be. Don't dismiss them.

This. I love the previous works Stardock have made (even though, yes, there were bugs and various problems at all launches) but GalCiv 1 & 2 were fantastic out of the box and only got better.

Elemental, on the other hand - not so much. I'm not 100% certain patches are going to be enough to fix it, but I'm going to give SD the benefit of the doubt, stick around and find out. They earned that loyalty with their outstanding support and ongoing improvements for GalCiv 2 - but they're spending the goodwill now.

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Edit: I find it interesting that some of the biggest critics of this game in the forums have the lowest member ID numbers. We've just seen the quality work you guys have released in the past and we probably had high expectations of another quality product on release. Don't get me wrong - I understand why StarDock chose the earlier release window (I don't think this game didn't need another 6 months of dev work... maybe another 2-3), but I'm with the other posters who have stated that "like it or lump it" is a surprising reply to see from StarDock's CEO. Understandable, but surprising.

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Reply #128 from Elemental Forums Top

yeah, they've e

Quoting Maffyew, reply 127

There does exist an intersect of people who (a) are Stardock fans, (b ) are dissatisfied with the launch state of Elemental in some form or another, and (c) want or expect Elemental to become the better game it can be. Don't dismiss them.
This. I love the previous works Stardock have made (even though, yes, there were bugs and various problems at all launches) but GalCiv 1 & 2 were fantastic out of the box and only got better.

Elemental, on the other hand - not so much. I'm not 100% certain patches are going to be enough to fix it, but I'm going to give SD the benefit of the doubt, stick around and find out. They earned that loyalty with their outstanding support and ongoing improvements for GalCiv 2 - but they're spending the goodwill now.

Yeah they've earned mine as well. I'd be happy if each 'pop' represented 100's even.  And units were more than Joe, Larry and Moe from the farm, and 300 vs a 'party of 3'.  It just feels like a mild lightweight RPG with a weak strategic element and some magic and Non random maps just make it repetitive

Reply #129 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Profligate, reply 120
He cites "team exhaustion" because of an early release is why Stardock has not enabled multiplayer yet.

/facepalm

Really?  Dude, just take the refund and move on if you're not satisfied.

Keep posting though, maybe they'll do more than just hide your posts.  Maybe you'll be next.

Reply #130 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nukenin, reply 118

Quoting Frogboy, reply 84
[…]We consider the game, as released, finished.[…]

Stand by this, then?  The game I receive in my LE box will need no update? 

 

Need? Personally, I think EVERY update is absolutely, positively essential so I'm the wrong guy to ask.

Reply #131 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 130

Quoting Nukenin, reply 118
Quoting Frogboy, reply 84
[…]We consider the game, as released, finished.[…]

Stand by this, then?  The game I receive in my LE box will need no update? 

 
Need? Personally, I think EVERY update is absolutely, positively essential so I'm the wrong guy to ask.

 

You are, so go get some well deserved rest and let this thread meander as it will.  I fear you are risking a bit of good will from some on the fence about these 'issues' with your replies here.

Reply #132 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 131
You are, so go get some well deserved rest and let this thread meander as it will.  I fear you are risking a bit of good will from some on the fence about these 'issues' with your replies here.

 

Rest?  NO!  Get to work on Galciv 3...  :)

Reply #133 from Elemental Forums Top

The entire thrust of this argument just seems bizarre. While I could understand the complaint a little more if it was from an aesthetics point of view the idea that the armies/populations arent big enough to make economical sense is just bizarre. Strategy games very rarely strive for "realism", or more correctly versimilitude, instead they priortise mechanics, gameplay and, well, strategy. This means they use varying levels of abstraction. I can understand an aesthetic objection, but one based on "realism" just seems to miss the point entirely. When not posting about the poor economic policies of fantasy strategy games do you spend your time writing treatsises on how theres no way a bishop should be able to beat a knight in chess because clergymen arent as buff as professional warriors?