current impressions

 

I realize that this post doesn’t conform to the very specific guidelines for very limited feedback ([Bug/Gameplay] etc), but I thought that some general comments might be welcome/interesting. I know this is still a beta, and I’m anxiously awaiting all the updates/improvements that will happen in the full version. Some of what follows may be fixed already, on schedule to be fixed, or simply not helpful at the current time, but just in case… I’ve only played the game a couple of times, so I don’t pretend to be an expert.

I’m a busy professional in the 30-something age range with a long interest in computer strategy games and fantasy RPG. I like turn-based tactics, hate real-time strategy, have played all the Civ games. While I generally like the Civ games, they leave me a bit cold, and the fantasy RPG elements of Elemental immediately appealed to me. Needless to say, when I first heard of Elemental, I was stoked.

Since I am pretty busy with “real life”, I appreciate games that are deep without being overly demanding on my time. The best games are ones that pack a large number of “tough decisions” into a short playtime. Tough decisions are when to take a calculated risk, weighing the tradeoffs, pros and cons of very different but apparently viable strategies. Who to fight? When to fight? How to win? You have to use your experience and weigh limited information to make a judgment. What is not fun are a lot of small decisions with little/no impact (e.g. you can ignore large chunks of the Crusader Kings game and do just fine), decisions that are obvious but you still have to take the time to make them to move the game forward (e.g. this is going to be a “research” city, so the only logical thing is to build improvements A, B, C, D, E, but I need to spend 10 minutes doing this in each an every such city), or (worst) optimization decisions that require you to calculate things through the way the game engine will to come up with the single, “right” answer (e.g. a lot of the worker improvements in Civilization – will my city develop faster if I build the road or the mine first?).

In my two games of Elemental, I’ve gotten glimpses of these “tough decisions” but not yet enough to really grab me … and yes, I know it’s a beta, and I’m still planning to play the final game several more times to see.

I’m curious to hear what other people think are the game-making/game-breaking decisions. So far, your research strategy and when to build a new settlement seem to be the key ones. City development has some potential here too – where to spend limited food resoureces?

The game offers multiple viable paths (e.g. adventure, magic, warfare, etc), and I’m wondering what is supposed to motivate the player to pick one over another? Or to mix and match? One method is player preference, pure and simple: e.g., I like to conquer stuff, so I’m always going to play the warfare path every time. And the game might be designed to cater to this by making sure that each path is equally viable in any given world and starting location. That’s fine, but I prefer a different game design where the player has to look at available resources and then judge the best strategies for the situation. For those who are familiar with it, Settlers of Catan (a boardgame) is a great example. You look at the board (unique each game), judge which resources will be scarce or abundant, decide which to produce yourself and which to trade for, and which to assemble into your ultimate victory. The winner is usually the player whose strategy is best adapted to that particular map. So far with Elemental, I’m getting the feeling that you will always have most resources available nearby, so that all the strategies are more or less equally viable and you just choose the one you like to play best. I did have to stretch in one game to get iron, but this was an exception.

A related suggestion would be to give the player the chance to select and/or customize his start location. Wandering around the board some at the beginning is maybe something I need to try more (Civ has trained me not to waste too much time at the beginning).

A big disappointment so far is that the game pace is pretty slow. In my opinion, one of the great things about Civ4 was that it really let you tailor the game pace by selecting map size and overall game pace. On small maps and fast settings, I could play entire games in ~4 hours, but you could play marathon games too. With the Elemental Beta, I selected the fastest/smallest options, but games are much longer. I know this is personal preference, but I just don’t have weeks to put into any game. And, my observation is that longer strategy games tend to fill the extra time with more micromanagement than the big “tough decisions”. I do think that a 4-6 hour game time should be long enough to be deep and challenging.

It’s been said before, but city development seems a little mixed in this regard. There is obviously a need to focus and specialize your cities (good!), but there is a bit too much micromanagement/optimization for my taste. First, it seems pretty obvious that you will always build all the very basic and cheap improvements (I forget exact names but workshop and merchant are prime examples, I think), but the game makes you spend the time tracking this and selecting them. Things are interesting when you have limited resources and have to decide whether to turn City A into a magic powerhouse or City B into a war machine, but there comes a time when you have enough time and money that you might as well keep both cities producing a string of minor improvements.

Unit tracking (setting units to sleep/wake, finding them, moving to next unordered unit etc) is cumbersome as has been noted in other posts. In terms of interface, Civ4 was pretty darn good in how it let you track units and streamline orders. The Total War series is an example of how an otherwise pretty good game can really bog down with poor unit interface. I remember spending a long time every turn (especially towards the late game) making sure I had issued orders to every unit before hitting the “end turn” button, and I’m getting the same vibe here. I think I’ve heard there are plans to improve this, but busy “older” gamers like myself just won’t slog through something that feels clunky or too much like work.

Quest tracking suffers from the same issues. I have a hard time seeing the little highlights on quest locations on the map when there is a lot of other stuff happening on the map too. Mountains are visually tall on the 3D map and often obscure important stuff behind.

A better interface for the spellbook would be nice. Something that let you sort by spell level, strategic vs tactical, spellbook, element needed, etc would be very handy in planning what spells you need to research.

I know that tactical battles are slated for improvement. Right now they are nothing but tedious. Are there any plans to make terrain matter? How many battles will really hinge on finding good tactics for the current, unique situation? If the goal is for the “auto resolve” feature to do as well as a human would, is that leaving much room for tactical creativity? How many times will the battles be evenly enough matched for tactics to make a difference? The Total War series of games has a brilliant concept, but the tactical battles ultimately disappointed me. They could be interesting when the armies were closely (but perhaps asymmetrically) matched and the terrain was interesting. But, 90% of the time, one side was hugely dominant, so there was no point in playing through what was supposed to be a core part of the game. D&D 4E has done a great job of making interesting, tough, tense, tactical battles, and I hope for a similar feel with the final version.

I’m also a bit worried that the game is 1 week away from being “done”, but we keep getting told “don’t worry – the final game will be a lot better”. How much can any human do in a week?

In a vain attempt to avoid probably inevitable flaming, I’ll reiterate that I know that the game is not done, and I’m keeping my mind open and hopes high for the final version. This is just my status update! I’ve heard that the developers are pretty amazing at pulling things together, and I’ve seen the excellent reviews of their other games (I’m not into sci-fi, so I haven’t played them). The game concept has amazing potential so my fingers are crossed!

 

6,271 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top

The current beta has been out for about 3 weeks now, and even then the beta wasn't anywhere near the most recent internal build as far as features go. They activate what they want tested to get feedback. You'd be surprised how much comes together in the final 3-4 weeks of development. The art assets begin being put in, polished, and replaced. The writing and documentation and tutorials and single player campaign get finalized and put in. Spells, research, world detail, race, and nation differences will be put in and balanced with the finalized features, etc.

 

The game was no where near the final version in Beta4. Stardock does a proper beta that tests features and gets feedback, rather than running betas as a glorified demo for an advertising stunt.

 

Just wait until we have our hands on the final version. If anyone is going to listen to feedback about what was/wasn't good about the beta, then it's Stardock. Also keep in mind that they'll be updating this game for at least the next 3-4 years. So even at launch it's not "finished".

Reply #2 Top

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 1
The current beta has been out for about 3 weeks now, and even then the beta wasn't anywhere near the most recent internal build as far as features go. They activate what they want tested to get feedback. You'd be surprised how much comes together in the final 3-4 weeks of development. The art assets begin being put in, polished, and replaced. The writing and documentation and tutorials and single player campaign get finalized and put in. Spells, research, world detail, race, and nation differences will be put in and balanced with the finalized features, etc.

 

The game was no where near the final version in Beta4. Stardock does a proper beta that tests features and gets feedback, rather than running betas as a glorified demo for an advertising stunt.

 

Just wait until we have our hands on the final version. If anyone is going to listen to feedback about what was/wasn't good about the beta, then it's Stardock. Also keep in mind that they'll be updating this game for at least the next 3-4 years. So even at launch it's not "finished".

Well there's a reason to test a more finished product beyond just as an advertising stunt, and that's so you actually test things like balance, AI, gameplay, whether certain things feel like a chore, etc. This is generally considered to be vitally important in a strategy game where tragic flaws are not always readily visible to a small handfull of internal testers.

Reply #3 Top

You know, I think, penlin would be a good game designer :)

Reply #4 Top

Quoting niteshade6, reply 2

Well there's a reason to test a more finished product beyond just as an advertising stunt, and that's so you actually test things like balance, AI, gameplay, whether certain things feel like a chore, etc. This is generally considered to be vitally important in a strategy game where tragic flaws are not always readily visible to a small handfull of internal testers.

With release date set on Aug 24, there is no way they will produce good balanced game (or did I miss the change of release date?). However, knowing Stardock, I am sure they will continue working on it AFTER release. In fact their GalCiv games changed quite significantly after releases.

Sometimes I suspect they do it on purpose, though I do not quite understand what is that purpose. Is it because they need money fast? Or is it because this is kind of the way to pressure to buy full game (updates work only through impulse, so if you do not own the game, it is not easy to get an update) or is it some kind of self-motivation to create stress by early release? In any way, I personally will treat the released game as just a new beta, with final game being somewhere in future. 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting MxM111, reply 4



With release date set on Aug 24, there is no way they will produce good balanced game (or did I miss the change of release date?). However, knowing Stardock, I am sure they will continue working on it AFTER release. In fact their GalCiv games changed quite significantly after releases.

What was GalCiv 1 like when it was first released? I liked that game a lot, but I didn't pick it up until after it had been out for a bit.

Reply #7 Top

Thanks for the feedback. You will be happy to know that nearly everything you listed has been addressed and then some.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7
Thanks for the feedback. You will be happy to know that nearly everything you listed has been addressed and then some.

can you do something about the heat while you're at it ? augh.

Reply #9 Top

heat ?

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Pantasd, reply 9
heat ?

I'm being baked alive. That sort of heat.

Reply #11 Top

Thanks for the constructive (almost flame free) and very encouraging responses - especially from Frogboy. The only thing that confuses me a bit is that the "pre-order" is billed as a chance to get into the game development process and have a say in what the final product looks like ... but the beta seems to lag too far behind the quickly advancing internal version, so the beta people only get a chance to comment on a very narrow range of pretty technical, detailed issues. Granted, I only bought the beta a few weeks ago, but it doesn't seem that there is a chance to shape the game in a very meaningful way.

I'm not really complaining, since I shelled out the cash mostly to satisfy my curiosity, I had read all the good things about ongoing improvements from Stardock, and wanted to support a small developer doing a niche title that was right up my alley.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting niteshade6, reply 5

What was GalCiv 1 like when it was first released? I liked that game a lot, but I didn't pick it up until after it had been out for a bit.

While it was definitely playable, for me it was not very enjoyable because lots of help messages were missing, and some mechanics was not clear. I do remember significant patches later on.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting penlin, reply 11
Thanks for the constructive (almost flame free) and very encouraging responses - especially from Frogboy. The only thing that confuses me a bit is that the "pre-order" is billed as a chance to get into the game development process and have a say in what the final product looks like ... but the beta seems to lag too far behind the quickly advancing internal version, so the beta people only get a chance to comment on a very narrow range of pretty technical, detailed issues. Granted, I only bought the beta a few weeks ago, but it doesn't seem that there is a chance to shape the game in a very meaningful way.

I can see your point, but it's definitely only because you haven't been here very long. Those of us who have been here for over a year (like me) or even those that have been here for the last few months can tell you that the Beta testers have had a Significant Impact on the game and it's Mechanics. Stardock have proven many times that they listen and indeed do use our ideas. Stick around, I'm sure the community here will get plenty of input into Elemental's future as well :).

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 13

Those of us who have been here for over a year (like me) or even those that have been here for the last few months can tell you that the Beta testers have had a Significant Impact on the game and it's Mechanics.

I have got different impression and I had beta from beta 1. It was always "oh, Stardock internal build is several iterations ahead of what you have, so do not judge the game, just check for the bugs" - kind of thing. Notice, that we are still in the same state and gold version is supposed to be very different with smart AI, interesting gameplay and so on, i.e. with the things that we do not have and thus can not help them with gameplay.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting MxM111, reply 14

I have got different impression and I had beta from beta 1. It was always "oh, Stardock internal build is several iterations ahead of what you have, so do not judge the game, just check for the bugs" - kind of thing. Notice, that we are still in the same state and gold version is supposed to be very different with smart AI, interesting gameplay and so on, i.e. with the things that we do not have and thus can not help them with gameplay.

That's true. I can't argue with that. I'm just pointing out they Do Listen to us and use our ideas, which can be seen with quite a few mechanics in game, "Diplomatic Capital/Currency" being only one of the many ideas they got from the forums here.