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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

from JoeUser Forums

There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.

No Copy Protection

Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever.  However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates.  But then, why should this be necessary?

Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.

So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers.  We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product).  This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.

So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental.  Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).

LAN Games

There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends.  Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.

#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.

#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.

#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.

#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game).  This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players).  Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.

1,400,303 views 434 replies
Reply #126 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Polynomial, reply 6



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 5
Quoting Polynomial, reply 2Archival DVDs? Really, Frogboy? Is there reeeaaally that much demand for patches on DVDs?I think this is awesome, and yes there is. I want to be able to have access to the game, as Stardock intended it to be played, long after Stardock is gone (if that happens of course, it might not).Great new, and thank you.


No, there is no demand for patches on DVDs. Its for the few crazy types of people who have issues with the new crazy digital download era. Stardock is not going anywhere. Their primary business model is not even in video games.

Fraid you are wrong there bucko there's plenty of demand for patches and games on DVDs. Just because YOU don't use a method of service doesn't mean the world doesn't. I prefer patches and games on cd's or dvd's always when/if I can get them. I have an archive of patches on disc and external hard drives now. I actually double backup my patches and some games that allow it like Matrixgames .exe and setup files.

Saying Stardock is not going anywhere shows your ignorance to the PC world. Plenty of PC companies have come and gone since the home computer world began. Where is Microprose? Strategic Simulations? 3DO? Sierra? just to name a few. Anything can happen in the business world and no business has any guarantee on surviving forever. So, I'll take my DVD's and cd backups anyday all the time whenever I can get them.

So, Thanks Stardock and Brad for realizing reality out here.

Reply #127 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 115



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 69
First, 99.9% of users of this game are going to play it single player only.  


Do you even READ your own polls !! Gosh Darn last I saw on the developer journals the polls showed 10% wanting multiplayer not the 0.1% in your imagination.  I remember the same multiplayer pains from Galactic Civilization_2 where 33% voted MULTIPLAYER from YOUR poll on YOUR FORUMS, but it was ignored and today those Galactic Civilization_2(SP_ONLY) forums are as dead as an asteroid in space.  Your dislike and "almost" hatred for multiplayer has blinded your vision of the truth and pure facts.

IF you ever desire to create a game where friends and family will praise it on the same levels as Monopoly or Civilization or whatever then you need to make multiplayer simple and inexpensive.  Take a glance at the original DIABLO... did they require multiplayer to have multiple serial#'s, a "reliable" internet service provider and logged into their corporate servers just to play multiplayer???  NO.  Anyone could play as the warrior on other computers and those wanting to play the other two classes were then expected to buy the game.  I came from a family where I was the 8th brother with 6 sisters... so I definitely feel annoyed your design does not consider the middle class and lower class families.  


Sorry pal but even Polls can be skewed. People can make 100's of online persona and skew any poll that doesn't allow just one vote per IP address and even a good hacker can get through those. Common knowledge is about 2% of consumers of primary single player games will in fact partake of multiplayer and of that 2% only a handful will play it beyond the first month. Multiplayer is for dweebs anyway just trying to show off their Epeens.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #128 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting psychoravin, reply 127


Sorry pal but even Polls can be skewed. People can make 100's of online persona and skew any poll that doesn't allow just one vote per IP address and even a good hacker can get through those. Common knowledge is about 2% of consumers of primary single player games will in fact partake of multiplayer and of that 2% only a handful will play it beyond the first month. Multiplayer is for dweebs anyway just trying to show off their Epeens.

And yet you get quotes like this:

"Trine probably could have doubled its sales and success had online co-op been included."

That's a quote from Joel Kinnunen, associate producer on Trine and Lauri Hyvärinen, CEO of Frozenbyte in a post mortem write-up on the game over at Gamasutra. 

There is a demand for online gaming, very strong demand. I don't think it's a surprise that some of the biggest games, in terms of sales and units sold, have very strong multiplayer components.

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Reply #129 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 107

Quoting Frogboy, reply 48 The only downsides are for those users who expect to have 1 license serve all their friends or LANs that have no Internet access at all.


Not reasonable for a middle or lower class family where the father has 5 sons and/or daughters above 8 years old...  $300.oo  just so the family can play the game together... PLUS multiply the cost if they wish to play any expansions released.   OUCH !!   Seriously your design prevents this demographic from playing your game... guess they'll play some other PC game or a board game or pray for hotseat functionality.

 

 

You are a middle or lower class family who has 5 computers for them all to play? Wow last time I checked those class of families struggled having one decent computer.

Try Monopoly for family game night. We play Rock Band 2 when I have some cheap friends come over who like to play but never to pay! ;) You know who you are....

 

I would love to buy a single plane ticket, buy a single Disney land ticket and buy one meal and take my entire family on a vacation; Sadly thats not going to happen.

Reply #130 from Elemental Forums Top

I like the "updated DVD copy in the mail" idea. Being able to archive games with Impulse is nice, but it would be less hassle to just pop in a disc. Any idea what this would cost? Will the discs have labels printed on them? I may get one for GC2, as it would be nice to have a hard copy of what appears to be the "final" version.

 

However, the LAN thing worries me. I have decent internet access at home, but there's only one broadband provider in town and they're determined to spend as little as possible on infrastructure maintenance. The quality of service has deteriorated steadily over the past decade, and the area had several outages in the past year due to faulty routing gear. Additionally, it's hard enough sometimes to get 2-3 computers on my network to talk to each other properly; getting them to do that AND talk to Stardock's servers could be even worse. I've had friends with laptops be completely unable to access the internet here despite having the access key and doing all the troubleshooting and Windows-jiggling we could think of.

Once this custom server thing is released, would it then be possible to play multiplayer without connecting to anything outside my house? If so, I think that would solve any possible connectivity issues as well as the whole "Internet != LAN" debate.

 

As for needing multiple keys for multiple players: Just a few hours ago I was playing SoaSE on a LAN with my brother, who had only agreed to try the game because it had LAN co-op. About year ago, he played SupCom on LAN at a friend's house and liked it so much he convinced me to get a copy without having played it myself. He doesn't care about singleplayer, and he doesn't normally play TBS games, but he's willing to try them out as long as we can play co-op via LAN. I was hoping to convince him to give Elemental a try, but it doesn't look like that will happen. I understand your reasons for requiring everyone to have their own key, and I don't think it's an unreasonable requirement, but it's still a little disappointing. :(

Quoting Heretic, reply 113

The only real way I have seen this fixable is the way Blizzard handled their early warcraft 2 and diablo I think. Basically you need one person with a real copy. This CD would have something similar as an activation for copy protection (YES, Activation is a COPY protection), if you do not provide the copy protection you could only install a restricted copy that would never a real copy as the server. So the guy who owns the game comes to lan and everyone goes "WOHA, Elemental" and he just shares a network drive with a restricted copy, everyone grabs it and connects to his server on the LAN (The only thing they can do with this copy). Everyone plays and this guy does free marketing to you and if anyone liked the game they'll have to ask him to pirate it to them or they'll buy it! This is pretty much the only solution I have to this problem

I've always felt that getting a group of people together to play a game over LAN is the PC equivalent of handing out the console controllers for some Super Street Fighting or some friendly Halolz. I never expect my friends to actually own the game we're playing, I just want to share it with them for a little while. I want to see developers get paid as much as anyone, but asking my friends to buy a full copy of something they may only want to play a couple times every other week is crazy. There's a big mismatch here between the typical PC game business model and the social reality of customers.

Maybe it's too late for Elemental, but I think Heretic's idea is a good compromise. The original Starcraft let you install "spawn" copies that had singleplayer and online play disabled. They could only do LAN multiplayer, and only when a computer running the full version of the game was hosting. This allowed people to play LAN with their friends (and potentially introduce many more people to the game) but still provided an incentive for those friends to buy their own copies.

Reply #131 from Elemental Forums Top

What Frog is saying is that IF these two things are true

1. you want to play multiplayer on the servers that Stardock set up(you use impulse to access them)

2. the other players are connecting to the internet(server running the game) through the same LAN 

THEN the easiest way to play multiplayer is to follow the instructions given in Frog's original post.

 

You can't play over LAN right now. The only servers that exist are StarDocks own.

The server software allowing you to set up LAN games will be released later.

 

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Reply #132 from Elemental Forums Top

@ Jalicos

 

While I have friends who come over to play console games and PC games there are differences. You example is slightly skewed.

Street figher or even rockband as an example.

One TV, one Console, one game, four controllers, four people can play sure.. Not all games allow you to do that. A lot of games and newer ones too do not allow for split screen or single console play; I have a second 360 and a lot of double games just for that reason. When your friend comes over you are right you had them a $60 controller. Which they hand back when they leave.

If the PC game was hotseat enabled then you could do the same thing. One monitor, PC, Key Board, Mouse etc. and all take turns like that.

Again not all games are like that. Some games require multiple  consoles, TVs and copies of the game. Some PC games do the same thing as well. This is one of those games.

Reply #133 from Elemental Forums Top

Monopoly might take a while, depending upon the size and age of your family I'd be more inclined towards quicker games, perhaps something like Settlers of Catan or Robo Rally?

Reply #134 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting killer105, reply 123


If that family can afford PCs for every member of their family they can afford games for every member too.  12.5% of people know demographic statistics are made up.

A family with several low-end computers acquired over the years thus matching the system requirements for Elemental cannot afford to suddenly spend $300.oo for each of the MULTIPLE games typically purchased during a year.

Reply #135 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 128


And yet you get quotes like this:

"Trine probably could have doubled its sales and success had online co-op been included."

That's a quote from Joel Kinnunen, associate producer on Trine and Lauri Hyvärinen, CEO of Frozenbyte in a post mortem write-up on the game over at Gamasutra. 

There is a demand for online gaming, very strong demand. I don't think it's a surprise that some of the biggest games, in terms of sales and units sold, have very strong multiplayer components.

Exactly!  And this doesn't include all the word of mouth advertising which multiplayer communities/families provide. 

Reply #136 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting killer105, reply 125


Actually it is mod communities that keep games alive longterm.

Galactic Civlizations_2 had modding the same as many other games.

Reply #137 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 136

Quoting killer105, reply 125

Actually it is mod communities that keep games alive longterm.


Galactic Civlizations_2 had modding the same as many other games.

 

I fail to see why board activity equals sales for a games. Just because the boards are dead for Galactic Civ 2 doesn't mean no one is playing it.

 

I've noticed that even if a game sells like 500,000 copies there are generally 1000 or so "active" members on the boards. Here we have a lot of registered users on the boards sure, but how many of them actively post or even come back to check topics. After Sins I went dormant until Elemental I was busy doing other things.

Reply #138 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting hermes33, reply 131
What Frog is saying is that IF these two things are true

The server software allowing you to set up LAN games will be released later.

 

However it requires IMPULSE login which requires Internet.... any LAN which "requires" WAN is not  LAN.

Reply #139 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 115
so I definitely feel annoyed your design does not consider the middle class and lower class families.
Middle class and lower class families should have access to Ferraris and Private Jets too.

Don't get me wrong but it's like in the other thread about Europe price: one unique price is fair but fails in that we don't have a unique/common economy everywhere. But that's Frogboy trying to get extra money from poor countries while not "punishing" economically stronger ones, right? Do we talk about Health Care too?

Stardock has always sold a license per purchase. You can install in 200 computers if those 200 computers are yours (how many of you have installed in computers that aren't?).  And you can play in any of them at any time as long as you only do it in once at a time (how many of you have shared their game with a familiar in the same house, using a single license for multiple users in one of Stardock's single player games?).

Requiring a "valid logon" for multiplayer, doesn't seem out of character for what until now Stardock has offered us. Especially when we are talking about a multiplayer that requires internet. LAN? No LAN yet so what? But I'm biased, if I were to play multiplyer I'd do it by internet or Hotseat (if available).

And Elemental, out of the box (a.k.a. the disk) has no copy protection of any kind. Burn copies of the disk, install it in as many computers as you own (or more if you rape violate the EULA), no internet connection needed to install or to play the game... Oh yeah, if you want patches then you need: INTERNET (oh noes!!!) and to validate that you are a paying customer (a.k.a. activate your game through internet with the serial that came with the game). Oh, and some bandwidth to download updated content for the game.

So you could stick to your basic box game for years without problems (hoping for it working on your system). Only thing I could really see as problematic would be that to play multiplayer it requires up to date game, which makes sense anyway so no much of a worry. And the LAN isn't there so no worries there either.

What I wonder is why there isn't license bundles for games. "Buy X, get Y (where Y > X)". Some non pirate users would thank that.

And archive DVDs are a very good idea even if some wouldn't care less. It costs Stardock nothing to have them in some hard drive and burn a copy once in while when some customer decides to ask for one. Shippings costs on the other hand can make of it a luxury for some. :P

Reply #140 from Elemental Forums Top

Great news - really pleased to see the LAN support, and the archival copies too. Having lived in a part of the world where internet access is intermittent and slow, I know just how valuable this sort of thing can be. It's so easy to forget, sitting in the comfort of your living room and eating a takeaway pizza, that there is a large and silent portion of the playing public who live in areas where internet access is not an everyday part of life.

I am also particularly grateful for the trust shown on the copy protection. Yes, this was the difference for me on buying or not buying. I am tired of buying games where the copy protection is a set of barriers. In addition, so many games now only give the full experience when online, even limiting content for offline users, turning everything into a lease agreement.

Imagine if the same rules applied to your TV: you wouldn't be allowed to move it from one room to another on a whim, because you are only licensed to install it in one spot. Or the company stops supporting your model, and the next day someone takes your TV away or switches it off permanently. When you make comparisons with other industries, it does make you think a bit about protection practices!

Reply #141 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StormbringerGT, reply 137


I fail to see why board activity equals sales for a games. Just because the boards are dead for Galactic Civ 2 doesn't mean no one is playing it.

I never said no one is playing it.  Board activity means a healthy forum community which means ongoing game strategy discussions, evolving ideas for expansions/sequels, challenging new maps/content from fellow gamers, a higher percentage for someone to respond/help with any new topic and the more gamers which are visiting the Stardock forums the more likely one of them will purchase another game while reading/browsing as compared to browsing the forums of a competitor.

Reply #142 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 139

Middle class and lower class families should have access to Ferraris and Private Jets too.

This is a PC game with low requirements... not a game using the latest virtual reality technology and gadgets.

Quoting Wintersong, reply 139


Requiring a "valid logon" for multiplayer, doesn't seem out of character for what until now Stardock has offered us. Especially when we are talking about a multiplayer that requires internet. LAN? No LAN yet so what? But I'm biased, if I were to play multiplyer I'd do it by internet or Hotseat (if available).

Unfortunately HotSeat is currently listed as "probably not" from Stardock.  Second gaming on the internet can be bad enough due to problems with an ISP, unpredictable WAN bandwidth, etc., . However now we're adding a third variable (Stardock Servers) and possibly a fourth (ISP of Stardock) really brings shivers.  I recall the problems Blizzard had with Diablo_2 and thus we stuck with LAN games.


Quoting Wintersong, reply 139


What I wonder is why there isn't license bundles for games. "Buy X, get Y (where Y > X)". Some non pirate users would thank that.

This would definitely be appreciated.

Reply #143 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StormbringerGT, reply 129

You are a middle or lower class family who has 5 computers for them all to play? Wow last time I checked those class of families struggled having one decent computer.

For the last few years since I lost a Major chunk of my income my family is much closer to the "poor" end of the scale than we have been in years....but we still manage to have 4 working computers in the house. How? Because every time I build a new system for myself (every 3 or 4 years) I pass my old system down the chain. The chain being from me to my wife and from my wife to my mon and from my mom to my uncle. You don't need to be a rich or even upper-rich family to have multiple computers. You just have to take care of the computers you have. Generally when I build a new system it isn't because my old one is broke, it's because it can't run the latest and greatest games coming out and I need to upgrade. More often than not building a new system for me means actually Saving Money by putting back a $100 or so a month until I have a couple thousand saved up to build a new machine with. That's what us poor people have to do when we want something nice (like a $2500 PC), we Save Up for it.

;)

Reply #144 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 138

However it requires IMPULSE login which requires Internet.... any LAN which "requires" WAN is not  LAN.

 

How do you know this?

Where does it say that you need to log in to impulse when using the server software that will be available later?

 

Reply #145 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NTJedi, reply 115



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 69


First, 99.9% of users of this game are going to play it single player only. 
 



Do you even READ your own polls !! Gosh Darn last I saw on the developer journals the polls showed 10% wanting multiplayer not the 0.1% in your imagination.  I remember the same multiplayer pains from Galactic Civilization_2 where 33% voted MULTIPLAYER from YOUR poll on YOUR FORUMS, but it was ignored and today those Galactic Civilization_2(SP_ONLY) forums are as dead as an asteroid in space.  Your dislike and "almost" hatred for multiplayer has blinded your vision of the truth and pure facts.

IF you ever desire to create a game where friends and family will praise it on the same levels as Monopoly or Civilization or whatever then you need to make multiplayer simple and inexpensive.  Take a glance at the original DIABLO... did they require multiplayer to have multiple serial#'s, a "reliable" internet service provider and logged into their corporate servers just to play multiplayer???  NO.  Anyone could play as the warrior on other computers and those wanting to play the other two classes were then expected to buy the game.  I came from a family where I was the 8th brother with 6 sisters... so I definitely feel annoyed your design does not consider the middle class and lower class families.  


Well, I will play MP games for sure....hopefully we gonna have enough ppl for it. o_O

Reply #146 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 143
More often than not building a new system for me means actually Saving Money by putting back a $100 or so a month until I have a couple thousand saved up to build a new machine with. That's what us poor people have to do when we want something nice (like a $2500 PC), we Save Up for it.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to routinely buy a 1000$ PC? In the end you get to do exactly the same things, maybe with a little delay. Not to sound patronizing or anything (we are all allowed our whims after all!), but if one's on a budget it would seem wiser not to spend just for the novelty of the items (which is what happens with high-end PCs...).

Reply #147 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh, and even if it's been said over and over, I have to stress this myself:

the people behind this company are AWESOME.

I really hope this new policy won't hurt Stardock with forms of piracy which would be particularly "vile" in this case. I will certainly do my part and buy even Elemental's expansions as soon as they come out (unless the game completely s*cks, which I don't think it'll be the case ^_^ ).

I won't even annoy anyone asking for the DVD if I can archive the game myself, as I've been told by users :)

Reply #148 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting hermes33, reply 144

How do you know this?

Where does it say that you need to log in to impulse when using the server software that will be available later?

 

How do you know that it won't?

Reply #150 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting dragoaskani, reply 100
Once they release the server client you can be your own server for your god damn lan parties...

I hate to have to do this...

There's no current timeline, it'll depend on what customers want us to focus our resources on. The first thing we'll want to do is see how many people are playing MP in the first place.

Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the game does NOT support LAN play at release. It supports Internet play only. It *might* get LAN support later. Maybe. Of course, the people who want LAN support and didn't already pre-order won't buy the game until it has LAN support, so the existing customers won't be asking for it.

Talking about how you can install the game on multiple computers on the same LAN doesn't really address the issue, and archive disks are another issue (though for the people who care about that, it's pretty interesting). The release verison of the game does not support LAN play, the Internet mode just happens to still work if you're on a LAN. So dragoanskani... saying that it's fine because it might get proper LAN support later just demonstrates that the game at release violates the Gamer's Bill of Rights.

Which one is it? Either LAN isn't supported, or LAN will be supported eventually and the game is being released in an unfinished state. Take your pick.