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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

from JoeUser Forums

There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.

No Copy Protection

Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever.  However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates.  But then, why should this be necessary?

Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.

So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers.  We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product).  This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.

So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental.  Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).

LAN Games

There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends.  Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.

#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.

#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.

#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.

#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game).  This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players).  Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.

1,401,518 views 434 replies
Reply #301 from Elemental Forums Top

Seems I missed the hot topic. I'm a HUGE fan of MP games and honestly, simply having MP capabilities in a game like this is amazing in and of itself. MP is there, and if you have to have two copies validated against the server, that's exactly the kind of DRM that I would consider acceptable :)

 

I'd really like to see a Diablo-esque MP "Spawn." I mean, really, you can play Halo with 4 people on the same console, right? Just one person has to have a license. I really liked that concept and I was sad to see it didn't catch on :(

 

If not, then it would be nice to have "Guest-passes", like maybe passes that, when activated, last 5 days. Steam has "Packs" where you can buy 3 licenses with a 10%-20% discount (or buy 3 get 1 free kind of pricing). When I have a game I love and my friends are "so-so" about it, it's always easier to convince them if it's at a discount ;)

MP LAN is nice-to-have, and with all the other bonuses we're getting from stardock (DRM Free, MP Support, legit backup CD's without requiring you to go out and buy a new copy, etc) where other developers leave us in the dark or drain our pockets, I think we can lay off them a bit, no? They said it's coming, so that's fantastic.

Thanks Stardock. For now, BFBC2 FTW

Reply #302 from Stardock Forums Top

About a week from release and still no solid list of MP features that are in the game now. You can sling around insults all you want, which I haven't done by the way, but that doesn't change this fact. There is still almost no information on MP, not even barebones except now we know there is no LAN support on release.

SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #303 from Sins Forums Top

Ve Vant MP Vist! Ve Vant MP Vist! Vake Up!

Zeriously, I vant to know vat it can and can't do. Zurly zey must.. errr I mean Surely they must know by now? They have to tell us at some point right?

Reply #305 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah! No DRM! Gotta love stardock games.

Regarding the LAN-issue:

Geez guys! Sit down and just think for a couple of seconds, instead of raging about semantics. Multiplayer is expensive. Elemental is mostly a single-player experience (don't try to deny it, forum-goers don't represent the demographic population of gamers). Stardock is a small company. TBS is a niche. Since Stardock can't throw money around they decided for one multiplayer-option and that is a server/client structure is the best for their game for different reasons (e.g. anti-cheat, easier for more casual gamers). For each additional multiplayer option, the money has to be taken away from somewhere else (content), which most of you probably do not want. Now, Brad has told us that they will release a custom server at one point, effectively making LAN without INTERNET a possibility.

Knowing this, why are we having this discussion?

Reply #306 from Elemental Forums Top

As someone who didn't pre-order until it was said that the game would have LAN-support as opposed to the "Stardock servers only" that had been discussed prior to that point, I feel nothing short of cheated. I genuinely thought Stardock was different.

Turns out I was wrong. Would that I could get my money back. I now see what the pre-order-and-get-beta scheme is all about.

#:(

Reply #307 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 143


More often than not building a new system for me means actually Saving Money by putting back a $100 or so a month until I have a couple thousand saved up to build a new machine with. That's what us poor people have to do when we want something nice (like a $2500 PC), we Save Up for it.

If you can put money away to build up cash for later, you are not poor. Poor people dont have cash to save for later. What you describe is simple middle class behaviour, no more, no less.

Reply #308 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 306
As someone who didn't pre-order until it was said that the game would have LAN-support as opposed to the "Stardock servers only" that had been discussed prior to that point, I feel nothing short of cheated. I genuinely thought Stardock was different.

Turns out I was wrong. Would that I could get my money back. I now see what the pre-order-and-get-beta scheme is all about.

You are wrong, in this case. There will be custom servers available, but probably not on day 0.

Reply #309 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm not sure I'll feel ok buying the game without some form of copy protection. Would it be possible for Stardock to send someone around to my house whenever I install it to amputate my left hand and punch me in the vulnerables a bit so I can get that authentic DRM feeling? If you could hold my first born hostage until I decide I never want to play the game again it would probably help too.

Reply #310 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Archonsod, reply 309
I'm not sure I'll feel ok buying the game without some form of copy protection. Would it be possible for Stardock to send someone around to my house whenever I install it to amputate my left hand and punch me in the vulnerables a bit so I can get that authentic DRM feeling? If you could hold my first born hostage until I decide I never want to play the game again it would probably help too.

They have a guy on pay-role who does that already named Jafo. He uses a baseball bat though.

@Jafo: :P

Reply #311 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 310



Quoting Archonsod,
reply 309
I'm not sure I'll feel ok buying the game without some form of copy protection. Would it be possible for Stardock to send someone around to my house whenever I install it to amputate my left hand and punch me in the vulnerables a bit so I can get that authentic DRM feeling? If you could hold my first born hostage until I decide I never want to play the game again it would probably help too.



They have a guy on pay-role who does that already named Jafo. He uses a baseball bat though.

@Jafo:

Heh, he'd be like the secret shoppers or the health department, everyone would know he is coming and be prepared :borg: .

Reply #312 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 311

Heh, he'd be like the secret shoppers or the health department, everyone would know he is coming and be prepared .

How do you know of the evils of the health department, Nesrie? I thought I was the only one around here who had to suffer that kind of hell? They've been screwing me over for about a year now while waiting for me to die.

Reply #313 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 268



Quoting StormbringerGT,
reply 266

You vote with your wallet or so I'm told. Are you buying this game? If so, regardless of what 50 people post here the thousands who buy the game will out voice you.


I bought it before beta 1, back when MP was going to have custom servers, modding, and various play modes. Thousands of people who want a SP only game are going to be happy I'm sure. I'm not one of them, and at the moment I care about me because those people are getting what they paid for and I don't believe I am. It's hard to call what they're offering in MP support "finished" in any way, and as I've become fond of quoting, Stardock's own Gamer's Bill of Rights says that I'm allowed to expect a complete product.

See, thats a well thought out argument. Copy / Paste to an email to Stardock support and ask them to get your money back. Wait 6 month on how the MP developes and decide to rebuy, or not.

It is worth a try, don't you think?

Reply #314 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 312



Quoting Nesrie,
reply 311

Heh, he'd be like the secret shoppers or the health department, everyone would know he is coming and be prepared .



How do you know of the evils of the health department, Nesrie? I thought I was the only one around here who had to suffer that kind of hell? They've been screwing me over for about a year now while waiting for me to die.

Oh it's been a a handful of years now, but when I was at college, I worked at a deli in a grocery store. The manager always knew when someone came snooping around. I am pretty sure he got a call which was a heads up. All I can say if you walk up to a deli counter and they give you a blank look as to how long that food has been out, don't buy it!

Heh, I take it you work for the health department?

Reply #315 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kochujang, reply 308

You are wrong, in this case. There will be custom servers available, but probably not on day 0.

That's not what they said. What they ACTUALLY said is "no custom servers, MP modding, or random MP maps at release. We'll see how people are using it and might do more later."

We've asked for a timetable and a list of what's actually in MP at release, and gotten nothing. There is exactly zero committment to do anything, and a vague promise to maybe look at it again later if usage warrants... which it won't, since nobody will play MP in such a half-assed implementation once Civ 5's full implementation is an option.

Reply #316 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 315

Quoting kochujang, reply 308
You are wrong, in this case. There will be custom servers available, but probably not on day 0.
That's not what they said. What they ACTUALLY said is "no custom servers, MP modding, or random MP maps at release. We'll see how people are using it and might do more later."

We've asked for a timetable and a list of what's actually in MP at release, and gotten nothing. There is exactly zero committment to do anything, and a vague promise to maybe look at it again later if usage warrants... which it won't, since nobody will play MP in such a half-assed implementation once Civ 5's full implementation is an option.

What they ALSO (goddamn RavenX) said is this:

FiringSquad: Can you play multiplayer on LAN?

Brad Wardell: Elemental requires you still have internet access; you do have to have an account [and sign in] to play multiplayer. The way it works, almost as an anti-cheat mode – unless you set up your own custom servers, which I guess you could for LAN, but I don’t know if that’ll be available on Day 0 or not. Effectively, all the data comes from the servers, so someone can’t mod their local machine for victory, so to speak. Other than that, when we play internally, we’re playing on our LAN.

You can either take the paranoid approach (this thread) and firmly believe that no LAN is ever coming, or actually have some faith in Stardock who has until now been very player friendly and has had a good dialogue with its customers.

Reply #317 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 286

Lack of your preferred features does not make the game incomplete or unfinished. It has what we planned for it to have and does what we planned for it to do at launch. The way it is now is the way it's been planned for at least a couple of months now.

It's interesting how nobody mentioned it to the rest of us a couple months ago, then. I've posted the various quotes in this thread from Brad showing what he said MP would have. It doesn't have any of that. Perhaps it's "finished" in the sense that you don't want to work on it anymore, but not in the sense that it's anything resembling release-worthy.

You can argue that priorities were set and timelines shifted around re: pre/post-release compared to what was discussed early on or midway through the beta, but given the scope and scale of changes to every one of the game's major subsystems in that same span of time, it's one of the smaller changes between initial and final plans.

 

From Brad, June 3 journal:


Q: I think Elemental should have <insert cool wizbang feature>, will you delay the game to put that in?
A: No.

Q: But I thought you said you wouldn’t release the game until it was what you wanted?

A: Yes. But we’re not going to delay the game to put in new features. We’re open to doing lots of things after release.

 

So... mods are a cool wizbang feature now? Random maps are a wizbang feature? Actual LAN support is a wizbang feature? If the talked about extra modes are missing, we'll add those to the list too (and at this point there's no reason to believe they made it in without confirmation). Hell, customizing your faction is a wizbang feature? That requires the modding tools and won't work in MP, but it's a pretty basic SP thing. "Wizbang" feature can't be used to simply describe everything you cut out of MP to make the release date, not when it's also a core advertised feature.

These aren't things that someone just thought up out of nowhere, they're all things Brad talked about and in some cases flat out stated would be in the game. They're not in the game. There's no way to know when or if they will be in the game. Hell, modding is a core and much hyped thing.

Changing the feature list and not telling anybody about it for two months doesn't make it alright. You guys broke your own bill of rights, and now you're trying to pretend you didn't by downplaying into total irrelevance a feature that you used to say would at least get enough attention to be useful.

Reply #318 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kochujang, reply 316

You can either take the paranoid approach (this thread) and firmly believe that no LAN is ever coming, or actually have some faith in Stardock who has until now been very player friendly and has had a good dialogue with its customers.

We should have faith why, exactly? The direct answer we've gotten is "eventually, maybe, depending on interest" for things that we were told would be around now. I see no reason based on that to believe it'll ever get done.

What you have to understand is that for people who just got torched by Stardock (and then told "oh all that stuff we said we just changed a couple  months ago and didn't bother telling anybody"), saying "hey trust Stardock" isn't going to cut it. We did trust them, and that's turned out pretty badly so far. Not to mention that "player friendly" doesn't describe Brad in this thread. He dodged the question initially, then called people pirates, then finally took off when he didn't like that people kept asking. As of yet, we still don't know what's actually in for MP.

Trust is much easier to lose then it is to regain.

Reply #319 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 306
As someone who didn't pre-order until it was said that the game would have LAN-support as opposed to the "Stardock servers only" that had been discussed prior to that point, I feel nothing short of cheated. I genuinely thought Stardock was different.

Turns out I was wrong. Would that I could get my money back. I now see what the pre-order-and-get-beta scheme is all about.

Yeah, damn shame. Stuff like that and the gamer's bill of rights are good marketing, but that's it.  I wanted to believe otherwise too.

Live and learn, I suppose.

Reply #320 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 318

Quoting kochujang, reply 316
You can either take the paranoid approach (this thread) and firmly believe that no LAN is ever coming, or actually have some faith in Stardock who has until now been very player friendly and has had a good dialogue with its customers.
We should have faith why, exactly? The direct answer we've gotten is "eventually, maybe, depending on interest" for things that we were told would be around now. I see no reason based on that to believe it'll ever get done.

What you have to understand is that for people who just got torched by Stardock (and then told "oh all that stuff we said we just changed a couple  months ago and didn't bother telling anybody"), saying "hey trust Stardock" isn't going to cut it. We did trust them, and that's turned out pretty badly so far. Not to mention that "player friendly" doesn't describe Brad in this thread. He dodged the question initially, then called people pirates, then finally took off when he didn't like that people kept asking. As of yet, we still don't know what's actually in for MP.

Trust is much easier to lose then it is to regain.

Hmm, I must admit I could be ignorant on a lot of issues in this thread. If this is the case, I apologize in advance. :X from now on.

Reply #321 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kochujang, reply 320

Hmm, I must admit I could be ignorant on a lot of issues in this thread. If this is the case, I apologize in advance. from now on.

It's cool, there's a lot to read in here. :) I just hope you understand why people are dissatisfied customers (and doing what dissatisfied customers do: complain).

Reply #322 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kyogre12, reply 290

Now I could be wrong, but IIRC the custom servers was never something that was going to be in at release. I was under the impression that it was planned from the start to be something added post-release. I was also under the same impression regarding other MP features, like other modes and such.

LAN and custom servers were both talked about as a release thing, as much as anything else in the game was. Other mods were mentioned a few times and then vanished off the radar, so who knows. But when they said "custom servers will come in the next beta, along with LAN", it's pretty safe to expect that. Course it didn't happen, and they didn't appear at all.

Also (and again, I could be wrong about this too) I thought that approved mods could be used in MP, as long as everyone has them. You just can't put the mods right on the server, until custom servers are enabled.

Maybe. The information on what MP can actually do is so scarce that nobody knows for sure just what's in and what's out. People asked for a list on that several pages ago.

Reply #323 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Elsimir, reply 296
(i apologize in advance if i'm repeating others arguments, this thread is long and while I've read it all its easy to forget sections.)

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood how this works but many people are complaining about LAN support being false because the game must connect to the server. What you don't seem to be getting is that while you have the resources like images, sounds stored locally the game data determining ai behavious as well as stats for items, people, and anything else stored in the XML is not stored locally its all retrieved from the server. You cannot have a personal server on the LAN because there is no data for the server to work with, it needs the updated data from the internet server.

You need all those things on your computer for single player to work offline. So they ARE there, on your computer.

Reply #324 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 69



Quoting abomination5,
reply 62

Quoting StevenAus, reply 49
Alter this thread's title to say "Minimal Copy Protection", and I think the majority of people would not have any problem with it.   Simple as that.

I agree with StevenAus. It's not the information in this thread that bothers people but the way that it's presented. It comes across as doublespeak.

"LAN Games" = No LAN support. You must be connected to the internet at all times for multiplayer.

"No Copy Protection" = Serial key. Only one player per key.


I'm going to have to give up on this discussion in a sec since seeing this kind of attitude boils my blood.

 

First, 99.9% of users of this game are going to play it single player only. It is a turn based strategy game designed for single player. 

Second, we are talking about COPY PROTECTION.  An archival DVD that has absolutely no requirement for Internet access to play, no DVD in the drive requirement, no requirement to enter in a serial number, no DVD key requirement, I think fits, by any reasonable expectation, the definition of no copy protection. 

That addresses our position on what NO COPY PROTECTION MEANS.  There is nothing stopping some dishonest person from taking that archival DVD, making a zillion copies and giving it out to all their friends to play the single player game -- the game that 99.9% of users would actually want to play.  

So you'll have to excuse me if I find it a little obnoxious that someone would consider the above not to be zero copy protection.

Now, with regards to LAN play.  Again, the key benefit we are discussing is that someone with ONE copy of the game can go and put it on all of their machines. As someone who has put on a lot of LAN parties over the years and had to deal with games that barfed on trying to install a game onto a bunch of machines at once to have a LAN party, the system in Elemental is something that I think most reasonable people who put on LAN parties can appreciate.  Each person who plays the game will still need to have a serial #. Why? Because we do expect people who play our game to buy it.  If your expectation was that your ONE copy of the game would allow 15 of your friends to play together without any of them having  bought the game then I'm sorry but those are not expectations we can meet.  However, your expectations also do not constitute some form of "copy protection" any more than having to logon on this forum with an account to post in this discussion constitutes copy protection.

 

Ok sounds resonable. Now when are we getting a hotseat option. I love to play multipule empires at once in these types of games so this is why I'm asking.

 

Reply #325 from Elemental Forums Top

OK guys at launch the game cannot be played using Total Internet Free LAN. But sometime after ther release they will release custom servers that we will be able to use for LAN parties without internet. At least that is how I read Frogboy's announcment.

Personally I have no problem with this as long as custome servers are going to be in the game sometime down the road. Personally I'm more concerned with getting Hotseat so I can play several empires at once in SP.