Regarding Socialism

 

Regarding Socialism

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evil.”

The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development...”

It is necessary to remember that the planned economy is not yet socialism.”

Albert Einstein, in his essay Why Socialism?

 

It never ceases to baffle me how a nation that ostensibly cherishes liberty and equality continues to ostracize both the prerequisite ideology for attaining social prosperity and those who adhere to this philosophy. In American society, socialism is derogatorily dismissed as morally reprehensible, caustically debased as irreconcilably redundant. The most vocal critics of socialism prey on fear and prejudice, thriving on ignorance and chaos. Their relentless and licentious slanders against socialism has tainted America with venomous deceit and turned rational humans into unthinking slaves to conformity, deafening all pleas to reason. Confounding the matter is the confusion between communism and socialism, as well as comparison to the “National Socialists” and the USSR. I am greatly disturbed by the complete lack of delineation and sheer apathy of most Americans in this regard. Nonetheless, as I am convinced that ignorance is the true source of this dilemma, I will attempt to provide my plea for socialism; as we have an overabundance of capitalists I will refrain from endorsing contrary ideologies for the present.

 

To understand socialism, you must first understand capitalism. Capitalism is defined as an economic system “characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods” and socialism is defined as “any of various economic or political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.” What this means is that under a pure capitalist society, all goods and services are privately owned, whereas a socialist society (there is no such thing as “pure” socialism- either it is socialist or it is not socialist) is where the means of production and distribution are collectively owned, usually but not always in the form of governmental property.

This is an important distinction: many capitalists assert that socialism needlessly redistributes property and “robs” hard working individuals of their possessions, but this is not the case. The inherent flaw in capitalism (from a socialist's viewpoint) is that corporate ownership of the means of production (factories, mines, etc.) and distribution (wages) of wealth is not only morally reprehensible but grossly inefficient (ironically, capitalists assert the same about socialism) as the intrinsic nature of a corporation is to maximize profits for its shareholders, rather than minimizing human suffering or environmental damage; simply put, corporations do not have public welfare as their highest priority, being formulated to maximize the capital gain of a select few. Therefore capitalists seek maximal profits in minimal time, inflicting capricious destruction of life and land (ironically leading to lost revenue, as in the case of the BP oil spill) and colossal wealth disparities in society; the latter culminates in what Marx described as the breakdown of capitalist society as the bourgeoisie find themselves deprived of wealth.

The 2008 financial crisis is a prime example of this- when Clinton deregulated the banks in 1999, he triggered a prodigal upsurge in spending that culminated in the cataclysmic financial crisis and the current recession. One cannot help but notice the similarities between this recession and the Great Depression; both were preceded by a period of ostensible wealth that was accompanied by great disparity in social strata, ultimately leading to a sudden drop in spending, which in turn leads to widespread economic collapse as the illusion of prosperity collapses inward.

One must always remember that socialism was formulated at a time of intense disparity between social strata. Helen Keller endorsed socialism after learning of miners becoming blind from coal dust; John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie, the two richest men in modern history, amassed their staggering fortunes during the “jungle capitalism” of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries; the board game Monopoly was designed to emulate the ruthless competition on Wall Street and the complete lack of regulation that it entailed.

Even a cursory study of that period amply demonstrates the perils of unrequited capitalism, and yet America obstinately refuses to reform, despite the fact that nearly all first world countries have adopted some form of socialist policy at one time or another and continue to possess substantial labor (socialist) parties. I am convinced that this obstinacy stems from residual fear of Communism dating from the Cold War era. If this is the case, then future generations will undoubtedly learn from the errors of the past.


For socialism to function, the entire society must be directed towards the greatest social and ethical objective- namely, the endorsement of universal prosperity and the marginalization of individual suffering. As the government ideally exists to protect individual rights and enable healthy social, economic, mental and physical development, it is often made the instrument of socialist agendas, but for governments to function, they must represent the will of the enlightened society. This enlightened state is the very definition of a utopia and is presently incompatible with any form of government aside from a republic, including classical democracy; as majority does not necessarily imply accuracy, democracy, while theoretically perfect, does not account for the rather poor judgment of the average uninformed individual, to say nothing of the inefficiencies of assembling each and every citizen for any and all legislation. Republics were assembled for precisely this reason, the theory being that so long as the society as a whole could exert its will upon the delegates their loyalty would remain to the state. For a republic to function as intended, three conditions must be met. First, the citizens must be capable of freely making enlightened decisions; second, the elections must accurately reflect the unhindered decisions of the people; third, the elected officials must have no conflicting loyalties, that is to say, they must owe their office solely to the will of the people.

The first condition requires all citizens to have a simple yet well formulated understanding of current affairs, as well as a clear understanding of both their own philosophy as well as the ideologies of the electoral candidates. This implies a well established means of dispersing information, which in turn requires the legislative freedom to individual as well as social discourse. At the same time, social accountability is required to maintain the integrity of pertinent information; while I am entitled to freely share information, I must also refrain from spreading false information, as this sows discord and confusion, and harmony and perspicuity are required for the good of the state.

While it is impossible for one human to detail the ideology of another autonomously, it is possible for citizens to provide the means by which a philosophy can be formulated- the higher reasoning of humans is not natural to us, as it gradually coalesces over the entirety of our lives. The early stages of the human lifespan are the most critical to this process, and as such, providing rudimentary education for all citizens during their youth is vital to the survival of the republican state.

Comprehending the philosophy of a delegate becomes rather straightforward when the individual is well informed and well educated, and so no further tools are required to ensure this necessity aside from the free diffusion of information and the ready accessibility of academic instruction.

 

Superficially, the second prerequisite of a stable republican regime implies only a well organized and fully transparent election process, however, astute readers will note the word unhindered, which is crucial and, again, often overlooked. Starving men are easily manipulated by candidates who promise bread, and so the state must ensure the proper security, health and sustenance of its citizens so that their decisions may remain unhindered.

The third requirement is the most vital, and is also the most difficult to attain. Irrespective of the will of the people, power always corrupts, and human nature is largely consistent. While there undoubtedly exists sublime individuals virtuous enough to rule wisely of their own accord, most humans require extrinsic motivation to retain such high levels of fealty to the state. The concept of the republic is grounded in this fundamental law of human nature and is intended to circumvent it with democratic institutions. The greatest danger to a republic is intrinsic corruption for this very reason; the complexity of a republic lends it greater stability and consistency, but also renders it less receptive to reform, and so the founding institutions are far more integral in a republic than a monarchy. Republics are highly susceptible to plutocratic regimes; as commerce is the only major avenue of power outside the state (the military is generally comprised of citizens who tend to possess greater liberties than feudal levies and education is nearly universal among citizens of a healthy republic) it is also the only major source of corruption. By corruption, I mean the degeneration of a functioning republic into a discordant republic, or a republican state that is no longer harmonious with the will of the people.

This is why socialism is essential. By limiting the power of commerce to oppose the will of the state (which in a functioning republic is, by definition, the will of the people) the intrinsic security of the republic is assured.

With this in mind, let us now turn our attention to American society. Wealth disparity is inevitably present in any capitalist system, but that does not render it impossible to ameliorate its effects to a degree. There are two major methods of doing this. The first is to create social programs to counteract the effects of poverty in the lower class, and the second is to tax the upper class. Social programs are generally more potent, but some taxation is required to sustain the state. I personally favor a progressive, nonlinear taxation of the top fraction of a percent: fifty percent of a billion dollars is five hundred million dollars, a considerable sum, but it still leaves half a billion for the former billionaire to play with; ten percent of one million dollars leaves nine hundred thousand dollars, or about five to ten years of salary for the top twenty percent; ten percent of two hundred thousand dollars is twenty thousand, a small sum by governmental standard, but rather enormous by average American standards. Generally speaking, I find the very existence of billionaires in our society repugnant. Though several of the more noteworthy billionaires are noted for philanthropy, the fact that anyone could amass such a sum while most of humanity starves is morally reprehensible and is a clear indication of the evils of capitalism.

Regardless of ideology, there exists a pervasive sense of social unrest in today's society. This too, is another sign of the unhealthy state of government. I am convinced that capitalism is to blame; the slightest concession to the capitalist leads to greater wealth disparity, which triggers greater concessions as the capitalist exerts an exponentially increasing influence on society. The most pressing concern for our generation is the dissolution of the capitalist system, for it has persisted well beyond social, economical, and environmental tolerances.

17,347 views 21 replies
Reply #1 Top

Socialism is wonderful until the elites feel they don't need to share, or are above the rest. With capitalism, the consumer decides which corporations will be successful. Build or produce crap that nobody wants, their gone. One system rewards success, the other distributes it and stymies innovation. Here's a simple way to tell, look at which systems have produced the most innovations benefiting humanity. History is full of Socialist failure. If capitalism is in trouble, it's because too many socialized programs are eating at it from the inside, yet they have solved nothing. I realize some folks are happy to have the government make their choices for them, I'm not one of them. Capitalism has worked well for the US (thereby benefiting the rest of the world) for 234 years, show me similar results in a socialist society. 

Reply #2 Top

Socialism works as long as you understand that some people are more equal that others.  Socialism is an oxymoron.  My priorities for society are not the same as yours, but both of us are practicing socialism since we are trying to impose our wills on society for its betterment.

"Four legs good, two legs bad."

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." (Thank you Obama)

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

"Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."

"So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot."

Quotes courtesy of George Orwell.

Reply #3 Top

The 2008 financial crisis is a prime example of this- when Clinton deregulated the banks in 1999, he triggered a prodigal upsurge in spending that culminated in the cataclysmic financial crisis and the current recession.

This is an extremely simplistic view. The financial and economic crisis of the past few years was a world-wide crisis, not just an American one. There were a great number of factors that went into the creation of this crisis, and many so-called Socialist nations also experienced the crisis as well. The biggest issue is the "credit culture' that exists in private business, governments, and individual peoples. That was a bubble that had to burst eventually.

Helen Keller endorsed socialism after learning of miners becoming blind from coal dust

Ok, so how does the government owning the mine instead of a company owning it somehow make a difference here? Is socialist coal dust somehow less harmful? :LOL:

There are no purely Socialist or purely Capitalist nations. The U.S. has a system of Capitalism tempered by government regulations, as well as some social programs. Socialist countries have privately owned businesses as well as government owned production, even China.

While Socialism may look good on paper human nature and the abuse of power can not be overlooked. The more power given to the government the more that power is abused. Ignoring this simple fact is nothing but deliberate ignorance.

Allowing private business to operate, with some government regulation to ensure proper business practices and protect people and the environment, is in my opinion the best way to go in order to promote a healthy economy and maintain individual opportunities and liberties.


Reply #4 Top

Socialism looks good on more than paper- look at Norway and Sweden's labor parties.  The whole purpose of socialism is to overcome the evils of corporate ownership.  The fact that corporations have consistently demonstrated their inability to think in the long term and have consistently bought our government is a clear indication of the failure of our society.  Deregulation led to the Great Depression and the current recession- deregulatiuon sponsored by the lobbyists and politicians.  I agree wholeheartedly that regulation is important- which is why I am a socialist.  Capitalism's flaw is that it seeks to maximize profits in minimal time; environmental and safety regulations limit profits, and so they are counterproductive in a capitalist society.  ANY regulation is socialist, because regulation is the antithesis of the anarchy of capitalism.  The ideal economy is publicly owned, not necessarily as governmental property- look up syndicalism.  It's interesting, to say the least.

Reply #6 Top

Socialism looks good on more than paper- look at Norway and Sweden's labor parties. The whole purpose of socialism is to overcome the evils of corporate ownership.

In capitalism, government is supposed to protect you from "evil" corporations. So who protects you from "evil" governments in socialism?  And please list the evils of corporate ownership.

The fact that corporations have consistently demonstrated their inability to think in the long term and have consistently bought our government is a clear indication of the failure of our society.

What fact? Or facts?  Please enlighten us.

Deregulation led to the Great Depression and the current recession- deregulatiuon sponsored by the lobbyists and politicians.

I take it you are:

A. Not an economist

B. Not a historian either.  But I think you did spell the words right. Which is the only thing right about that sentence.

Capitalism's flaw is that it seeks to maximize profits in minimal time;

how is that a flaw?  Do you go on a spending spree when you lose your job? (I would not be surprised if the answer is yes).

environmental and safety regulations limit profits, and so they are counterproductive in a capitalist society.

And that is where government comes in, now doesn't it?  Government regulation is not the  same as government ownership.  BIG difference.

ANY regulation is socialist,

ANY Sales is capitalist.  You at least got that right.  There are no pure anythings when it comes to mankind.  However, the degree of each indicates the name it goes by.

The ideal economy is publicly owned, not necessarily as governmental property- look up syndicalism.

Then I am sure you mourned greatly when the USSR fell apart,  Eden on earth.  But people cannot stand to be happy, so they broke it, right?  Look it up.

Reply #7 Top

Socialism looks good on more than paper- look at Norway and Sweden's labor parties. The whole purpose of socialism is to overcome the evils of corporate ownership.

Well Sweden doesn't seem to have a problem pushing Skandia and Saab (to name a few) abroad. I guess it's OK to be a capitalist outside the country.

Population:

Norway  4,896,700   2010 est.

Sweden     9,354,462   2009 census 

New York City  8,391,881  (July 2009)

Los Angeles     3,833,995   (July 2009)  

Reply #8 Top

The first is to create social programs to counteract the effects of poverty in the lower class, and the second is to tax the upper class.

This has been done (and it continues increasingly to this day), has it eliminated poverty? Has it reduced it? When you make everyone poor, who pays those taxes then? Some how, I don't believe that (if indeed you are of working age and are employed) you asked your employer to give you only what is needed for pay or you use only the minimum required for living accommodations. Isn't the socialist mantra, "Each according to their needs"? And there lies the problem with socialism, one always believes their "needs" are greater then others dictate. Fail. I sincerely hope this isn't the ideological backward thinking education system my tax dollars pay for. You do realize even Communist countries are abandoning socialist concepts and embracing capitalism?

Reply #9 Top

The whole purpose of socialism is to overcome the evils of corporate ownership.

This sentence alone speaks worlds. It indicates that you have an immature mind and limited life experience in the real world, which is consistent with many young people who claim to be Socialists.

Private ownership whether a home, a business, or anything else is not an evil. I am willing to bet that you own a number of things yourself. Do you own your computer or do you simply use a state owned one? Was that computer built by a private corporation or a state owned production facility?

The problem that such as yourself never seem capable of understanding is that progress, such as the invention of the personal computer, the existence of the internet itself, automobiles, advances in medicine, and pretty much all other advances which improve the quality of life for people comes from a motive of that which you seem to foolishly believe is evil; profit.

Without the motivation of making a profit to drive advancements, we would likely all still be riding in horse-drawn wagons and watching our children suffer from a myriad of diseases such as Polio. If we had all been living in a Socialist society for the past two hundred years, or even the past hundred years, or even the past 50 years, this forum wouldn't even exist for you to blather about how much better Socialism is over Capitalism. Without the motivation of a profit, advancement ceases or at least slows to a crawl.

This forum is free for members here because it is funded by the profits (ewww that evil word again!) from the company owned by the evil Capitalist who provides the site free of charge to you and I.

If you truly believe that Corporations are evil and only the government is good and altruistic then I challenge you to rid yourself of any and all property you own or use that was created by an evil corporation, work only for the government and not a corporation, eat only foods provided by the government, use only products created and produced and provided by the government, and let us know how that works out for you.

Oh, but you can't let us know, can you? It wasn't a government that created the internet or even personal computers, was it?

Oh, and both Norway and Sweden have for-profit Corporations too. Or didn't you know that?

 

Reply #10 Top

George Orwell, in his essay The Lion and the Unicorn

Socialism is usually defined as ‘common ownership of the means of production.’ Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land, mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State. The State is the sole large-scale producer. It is not certain that Socialism is in all ways superior to capitalism, but it is certain that, unlike capitalism, it can solve the problems of production and consumption. At normal times a capitalist economy can never consume all that it produces, so that there is always a wasted surplus (wheat burned in furnaces, herrings dumped back into the sea etc. etc.) and always unemployment. In time of war, on the other hand, it has difficulty in producing all that it needs, because nothing is produced unless someone sees his way to making a profit out of it.

In a Socialist economy these problems do not exist. The State simply calculates what goods will be needed and does its best to produce them. Production is only limited by the amount of labour and raw materials. Money, for internal purposes, ceases to be a mysterious all-powerful thing and becomes a sort of coupon or ration-ticket, issued in sufficient quantities to buy up such consumption goods as may be available at the moment.

However, it has become clear in the last few years that ‘common ownership of the means of production’ is not in itself a sufficient definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal level, and have some kind of control over the government. ‘The State’ may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on money.

Albert Einstein, in his essay Why Socialism?

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate.

The situation prevailing in an economy based on the private ownership of capital is thus characterized by two main principles: first, means of production (capital) are privately owned and the owners dispose of them as they see fit; second, the labor contract is free. Of course, there is no such thing as a pure capitalist society in this sense. In particular, it should be noted that the workers, through long and bitter political struggles, have succeeded in securing a somewhat improved form of the “free labor contract” for certain categories of workers. But taken as a whole, the present day economy does not differ much from “pure” capitalism.

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers' goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

Reply #11 Top

You know you just seem to be spouting out other peoples philosophy, and none of your own. Have you been to a socialist country for more than a weeks vacation at a resort? I'm not talking about your pseudo-socialist country like Norway and Sweden, more like Myanmar, Cuba, Nepal or Laos. Then if you're still singing the praises of socialism, I'll refrain from suggesting you trade that Tr in for a P.

Reply #12 Top

Albert Einstein, in his essay Why Socialism?

Again, my doctor is one of the best in the world. And he has to be smart to have gotten through med school.  However, he know nothing of computer or cars.  Argumentum ad verecundiam is hardly justification for drinking the koolaid from Jim Jones.

When you can come up with some coherent points of your own that actually talk to the points we have raised, come back.  Until then, you are just one of the sheep bleating in the barn yard.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting MasonM, reply 9


Private ownership whether a home, a business, or anything else is not an evil. I am willing to bet that you own a number of things yourself. Do you own your computer or do you simply use a state owned one? Was that computer built by a private corporation or a state owned production facility?

 

Try reading my posts; you'll see that I've dealt with this.

Quoting Nitro, reply 11
You know you just seem to be spouting out other peoples philosophy, and none of your own. Have you been to a socialist country for more than a weeks vacation at a resort? I'm not talking about your pseudo-socialist country like Norway and Sweden, more like Myanmar, Cuba, Nepal or Laos. Then if you're still singing the praises of socialism, I'll refrain from suggesting you trade that Tr in for a P.

How do you define socialism?  The Soviet Union, et al were not socialist, any more than Hitler was.  Myanmar and Cuba are fascist, plain and simple.

Per above:

Socialism- a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Quoting MasonM, reply 9

The whole purpose of socialism is to overcome the evils of corporate ownership.


This sentence alone speaks worlds. It indicates that you have an immature mind and limited life experience in the real world, which is consistent with many young people who claim to be Socialists.

 

From my point of view, I define ethics (morality in specific circumstances) regarding corporations as social, because they are economic and political in effect.  As I define "Evil" in a society as anything that is opposed to the public welfare, or the good of the state, I label corporations evil, because they necessarily place the individual, particular desires of their shareholders over those of the society as a whole.  In other words, I value democratic ideals, for what is democracy, if not an expression of the public will?

Reply #14 Top

Socialism- a theory or system

In theory we all are dead.  Theories are nice in science.  But in real life they do not exist.  There is no such thing as pure capitalism or pure socialism, just perverted instances of each.  Examples of the latter are Nazi Germany, the USSR, Cuba, China and Vietnam (oh - and don't forget North Korea).  Examples of the former are the US (past), Great Britain (past) and other western democracies.  So which ones would you want to live in?

Reply #15 Top

How do you define socialism? The Soviet Union, et al were not socialist, any more than Hitler was. Myanmar and Cuba are fascist, plain and simple.

There is two definitions of Socialism, the real one that exists in history and today, and the imaginary, idealist one that exist as a possibility only in the minds of people such as yourself. How someone can twist an idea into something that has repeated proved not to work is beyond me. Your world would need to wipe all emotion from every human being. Even if you cloned yourself, and you and your clones were the only inhabitants of earth, it still would fail, because somewhere inside you is at least one little trait (think pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth).

Hitler=Nazi (NSDAP or National Socialist German Workers Party)= fascist

http://mises.org/daily/1937

Soviet Union= USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republic)

From the 1977 Soviet constitution (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/77cons01.html#I

"Article 1. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a socialist state of the whole people, expressing the will and interests of the workers, peasants, and intelligentsia, the working people of all the nations and nationalities of the country."

From the Cuban constitution (http://www.parlamentocubano.cu/ingles/constitution.html):

"ARTICLE 5.  The Communist Party of Cuba, a follower of Martí’s ideas and of Marxism-Leninism, and the organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, is the highest leading force of society and of the state, which organizes and guides the common effort toward the goals of the construction of socialism and the progress toward a communist society..."

From the Burma (Myanmar) constitution of 1974 (http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/constmyanmar.html)

"We, the people residing in the Socialist Republic of the Union of Burma have throughout history lived in harmony and unity sharing joys and sorrows in weal or woe."

To be fair Myanmar did change it's constitution in 2008, while it does mention the constitution above, it removes the "Socialist" terminology from the current iteration. If fact if you read it you'd think the place is a very Democratic Republic on par with the US system. As I believe little has changed for the average person on the street, I stand by my original comment (about visiting there), as I believe the living conditions are similar to the countries socialist history.

Socialism- a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

And you mean to tell me none of the aforementioned nations don't "advocate the vesting of ownership and control" abet to a select few in the government? Of course these governments believe they ARE the community. To believe otherwise is sheer fantasy. Show me where your utopia has ever existed, and the Smurfs don't count. I believe you are infatuated with a concept that cannot exist in reality. You might as well wish for Narnia or Middle Earth as they would have about the same chance of occurring.

I do give you kudos for responding.

Reply #16 Top

As I define "Evil" in a society as anything that is opposed to the public welfare, or the good of the state, I label corporations evil, because they necessarily place the individual, particular desires of their shareholders over those of the society as a whole. In other words, I value democratic ideals, for what is democracy, if not an expression of the public will?

I find your definitions curious.

Please explain the concept of 'desires of the society as a whole'.  Who defines them and how?  And who, exactly, determines what constitutes the 'good of the state'?

Also, please explain how and why the individual, particular desires of shareholders are necessarily incompatible with the desires of the society as a whole (once you explain to us what those are).  On what basis are they mutually exclusive?

Furthermore, how do you determine the 'expression of the public will' in setting the price of a dozen eggs?

Reply #17 Top

Furthermore, how do you determine the 'expression of the public will' in setting the price of a dozen eggs?

Let me go a bit further. Seems the majority people don't want Obama care. The majority want something done about illegal immigration. Isn't that the will of the people? Yet the US communist party, which is striving for increased socialism in the US support illegals and government health care. I'd be interested to know if the OP acknowledges this "public will".

From the US Communist Party FAQ page (http://cpusa.org/faq/):

"The Communist Party stands for the interests of the American working class and the American people. It stands for our interests in both the present and the future. Solidarity with workers of other countries is also part of our work. We work in coalition with the labor movement, the peace movement, the student movement, organizations fighting for equality and social justice, the environmental movement, immigrants rights groups and the health care for all campaign"

 Hum "our interests" doesn't sound like the will of the people to me. "Social Justice"... I put that in bold, because this is a term we have been hearing a lot lately, even from our little socialist of a president. The rest of the issues I pointed out are in direct opposition to the "will of the people" as I stated above. These folks seem a little out of touch with most of Americans.

Now I know what the OP might say, "I support socialism not the communist party". Fair enough I say. Read the OP's rant and compare to this statement from the communists:

"Our outlook is based on the social science of Marxism-Leninism."

Seems the OP and the communists have the same bible. I wonder who wins out when this utopia forms? No I don't because we have just to look to history to see who wins out, the oppressive communists. One can't be "half-pregnant".

The rest is just for laughs (not related to the OP's comments):

"We make the fight for equality an important part of every struggle we fight. The Communist Party fights for full equality for people of all races, for women and men, straight people and LGBT, for speakers of all languages, for young people and older people, and for people of all religious beliefs or none. The U.S. working class includes millions of immigrant workers. We stand for full rights for these workers, regardless of their documentation status. We believe in equality because it is just and right. Even more, the fight for equality is key to uniting the working class into a powerful force for the changes we need."

This is hilarious, the same groups that communists persecute seem to be the same folks they are hoping will spring them into power. I'm sure that would just be temporary as we know from history communism does not tolerate diversity or protest that isn't in direct support of the party. Every communist country made similar promises to the people to gain support. As soon as that support was given, their voices were forfeit.

Here's their tag line:

"A better world is possible — a world where people come before profits. That’s socialism. That’s our vision. We are the Communist Party USA."

Need I say more on that?

BTW lots of love for Obama over there on that site. Of course most conservatives should not be shocked about that at all. Know your enemy check them out http://cpusa.org/obama-state-of-the-union-he-got-the-ball-rolling. Be sure to read the comments.

Yes these people do live among us.

 

Reply #18 Top

"socialism is defined as “any of various economic or political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.” What this means is that under a pure capitalist society, all goods and services are privately owned, whereas a socialist society (there is no such thing as “pure” socialism- either it is socialist or it is not socialist) is where the means of production and distribution are collectively owned, usually but not always in the form of governmental property."

Communism is the extreme form of socialism- where everything is owned collectively.  I am not a communist, as I believe that, like classical democracy, it is hopelessly idealistic and unachievable on the scale of a political state.  Put it another way, socialism is to communism what republics are to (classical) democracy.

As to the "Socialism" of Cuba et al, I could go on a long rant about it, but I'll just quote Einstein, as he undoubtedly put a lot more thought into it than I did:

"Nevertheless, it is necessary to remember that a planned economy is not yet socialism. A planned economy as such may be accompanied by the complete enslavement of the individual. The achievement of socialism requires the solution of some extremely difficult socio-political problems: how is it possible, in view of the far-reaching centralization of political and economic power, to prevent bureaucracy from becoming all-powerful and overweening? How can the rights of the individual be protected and therewith a democratic counterweight to the power of bureaucracy be assured?"

The government is not the only means of providing socialism, as I have stated numerous times.  Look up syndicalism for an example of what I'm talking about.

My primary concern, irrespective of socialism, is that there is such a climate of intolerance and ignorance with respect to liberal agendas; by openly discussing socialist philosophies, I intend to promote rational debate about ideals that are currently ostracized.

EDIT: just found an interesting article on public opinion:

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/Public%20Opinion%20on%20Health%20Care%20Reform-1.pdf

Reply #19 Top

I repeat:

I find your definitions curious.

Please explain the concept of 'desires of the society as a whole'. Who defines them and how? And who, exactly, determines what constitutes the 'good of the state'?

Also, please explain how and why the individual, particular desires of shareholders are necessarily incompatible with the desires of the society as a whole (once you explain to us what those are). On what basis are they mutually exclusive?

Furthermore, how do you determine the 'expression of the public will' in setting the price of a dozen eggs?

Reply #20 Top

[quote]My primary concern, irrespective of socialism, is that there is such a climate of intolerance and ignorance with respect to liberal agendas; by openly discussing socialist philosophies, I intend to promote rational debate about ideals that are currently ostracized.

EDIT: just found an interesting article on public opinion:

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/Public%20Opinion%20on%20Health%20Care%20Reform-1.pdf[/quote]

What exactly is intolerant or ignorant about attitudes toward the liberal agenda? You throw up the health care reform (Which is really health insurance reform as it does nothing to reduce the cost of treatment). Of course people without insurance want someone else to pay for it. That doesn't make them socialists, just wanting others to pay for them. Tell you what, ask those same people to volunteer their time at a hospital for 20 hours a month (five hours each weekend), then their health care is paid for. See how that changes the desire for social agenda. I'm sure some would do it, especially if their was a need, most would say, "no thanks... I want it for no effort on my part". How many would show up religiously each week? How long would you keep showing up if you had to make up the hours for the no shows? Socialism doesn't work, without some benefiting and others not.

I would say your "concern" cannot be addressed without years of indoctrination and mind conditioning, but you seem off to a good start.

As for the rest of your last comment, it's all conjecture, and you haven't addressed other commenter's inquiries. Einstein never had to live under socialism, otherwise his attitude might have been much different.Would we even have known him if "Society" though his best contribution were to perform the duties of milkman for the good of the people? BTW Einstein was terrible at being prompt, he would have been one of those "no shows" volunteering at the hospital.

Reply #21 Top

My primary concern, irrespective of socialism, is that there is such a climate of intolerance and ignorance with respect to liberal agendas; by openly discussing socialist philosophies, I intend to promote rational debate about ideals that are currently ostracized.

Really?  Go to thinkprogressive.com and repeat that. (They are trying to paint James Lee as a right wing nut).

However, I appreciate the fact you do want to discuss it in a rational matter here.  While you are definitely in the minority, I do not see any ostracism or vindictiveness in this thread.  It is always good that discussion can take place in a calm and rational manner on the theoretical.

For that is what this is. Theoretical.

As to the "Socialism" of Cuba et al, I could go on a long rant about it, but I'll just quote Einstein, as he undoubtedly put a lot more thought into it than I did:

Since the only examples - on a national scale  - of socialism have been abject failures.  Ideally, I am sure we can discuss the merits, but reality is another ball of wax.

As for Einstein, that is argumentum ad verecundiam, and not a very good one.  Einstein may have put more thought into it than you, but while he was a genius in theoretical physics, he was an idiot when it came to economics.  Just because you are an expert in one subject matter does not make you an expert in all.