STRATFOR: Arizona, Borderlands and U.S.-Mexican Relations

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100802_arizona_borderlands_and_us_mexican_relations

By George Friedman

Arizona’s new law on illegal immigration went into effect last week, albeit severely limited by a federal court ruling. The U.S. Supreme Court undoubtedly will settle the matter, which may also trigger federal regulations. However that turns out, the entire issue cannot simply be seen as an internal American legal matter. More broadly, it forms part of the relations between the United States and Mexico, two sovereign nation-states whose internal dynamics and interests are leading them into an era of increasing tension. Arizona and the entire immigration issue have to be viewed in this broader context.

Until the Mexican-American War, it was not clear whether the dominant power in North America would have its capital in Washington or Mexico City. Mexico was the older society with a substantially larger military. The United States, having been founded east of the Appalachian Mountains, had been a weak and vulnerable country. At its founding, it lacked strategic depth and adequate north-south transportation routes. The ability of one colony to support another in the event of war was limited. More important, the United States had the most vulnerable of economies: It was heavily dependent on maritime exports and lacked a navy able to protect its sea-lanes against more powerful European powers like England and Spain. The War of 1812 showed the deep weakness of the United States. By contrast, Mexico had greater strategic depth and less dependence on exports.

The Centrality of New Orleans

The American solution to this strategic weakness was to expand the United States west of the Appalachians, first into the Northwest Territory ceded to the United States by the United Kingdom and then into the Louisiana Purchase, which Thomas Jefferson ordered bought from France. These two territories gave the United States both strategic depth and a new economic foundation. The regions could support agriculture that produced more than the farmers could consume. Using the Ohio-Missouri-Mississippi river system, products could be shipped south to New Orleans. New Orleans was the farthest point south to which flat-bottomed barges from the north could go, and the farthest inland that oceangoing ships could travel. New Orleans became the single most strategic point in North America. Whoever controlled it controlled the agricultural system developing between the Appalachians and the Rockies. During the War of 1812, the British tried to seize New Orleans, but forces led by Andrew Jackson defeated them in a battle fought after the war itself was completed.

Jackson understood the importance of New Orleans to the United States. He also understood that the main threat to New Orleans came from Mexico. The U.S.-Mexican border then stood on the Sabine River, which divides today’s Texas from Louisiana. It was about 200 miles from that border to New Orleans and, at its narrowest point, a little more than 100 miles from the Sabine to the Mississippi.

Mexico therefore represented a fundamental threat to the United States. In response, Jackson authorized a covert operation under Sam Houston to foment an uprising among American settlers in the Mexican department of Texas with the aim of pushing Mexico farther west. With its larger army, a Mexican thrust to the Mississippi was not impossible — nor something the Mexicans would necessarily avoid, as the rising United States threatened Mexican national security.

Mexico’s strategic problem was the geography south of the Rio Grande (known in Mexico as the Rio Bravo). This territory consisted of desert and mountains. Settling this area with large populations was impossible. Moving through it was difficult. As a result, Texas was very lightly settled with Mexicans, prompting Mexico initially to encourage Americans to settle there. Once a rising was fomented among the Americans, it took time and enormous effort to send a Mexican army into Texas. When it arrived, it was weary from the journey and short of supplies. The insurgents were defeated at the Alamo and Goliad, but as the Mexicans pushed their line east toward the Mississippi, they were defeated at San Jacinto, near present-day Houston.

The creation of an independent Texas served American interests, relieving the threat to New Orleans and weakening Mexico. The final blow was delivered under President James K. Polk during the Mexican-American War, which (after the Gadsden Purchase) resulted in the modern U.S.-Mexican border. That war severely weakened both the Mexican army and Mexico City, which spent roughly the rest of the century stabilizing Mexico’s original political order.

A Temporary Resolution

The U.S. defeat of Mexico settled the issue of the relative power of Mexico and the United States but did not permanently resolve the region’s status; that remained a matter of national power and will. The United States had the same problem with much of the Southwest (aside from California) that Mexico had: It was a relatively unattractive place economically, given that so much of it was inhospitable. The region experienced chronic labor shortages, relatively minor at first but accelerating over time. The acquisition of relatively low-cost labor became one of the drivers of the region’s economy, and the nearest available labor pool was Mexico. An accelerating population movement out of Mexico and into the territory the United States seized from Mexico paralleled the region’s accelerating economic growth.

The United States and Mexico both saw this as mutually beneficial. From the American point of view, there was a perpetual shortage of low-cost, low-end labor in the region. From the Mexican point of view, Mexico had a population surplus that the Mexican economy could not readily metabolize. The inclination of the United States to pull labor north was thus matched by the inclination of Mexico to push that labor north.

The Mexican government built its social policy around the idea of exporting surplus labor — and as important, using remittances from immigrants to stabilize the Mexican economy. The U.S. government, however, wanted an outcome that was illegal under U.S. law. At times, the federal government made exceptions to the law. When it lacked the political ability to change the law, the United States put limits on the resources needed to enforce the law. The rest of the country didn’t notice this process while the former Mexican borderlands benefited from it economically. There were costs to the United States in this immigrant movement, in health care, education and other areas, but business interests saw these as minor costs while Washington saw them as costs to be borne by the states.

Three fault lines emerged in United States on the topic. One was between the business classes, which benefited directly from the flow of immigrants and could shift the cost of immigration to other social sectors, and those who did not enjoy those benefits. The second lay between the federal government, which saw the costs as trivial, and the states, which saw them as intensifying over time. And third, there were tensions between Mexican-American citizens and other American citizens over the question of illegal migrants. This inherently divisive, potentially explosive mix intensified as the process continued.

Borderlands and the Geopolitics of Immigration

Underlying this political process was a geopolitical one. Immigration in any country is destabilizing. Immigrants have destabilized the United States ever since the Scots-Irish changed American culture, taking political power and frightening prior settlers. The same immigrants were indispensible to economic growth. Social and cultural instability proved a low price to pay for the acquisition of new labor.

That equation ultimately also works in the case of Mexican migrants, but there is a fundamental difference. When the Irish or the Poles or the South Asians came to the United States, they were physically isolated from their homelands. The Irish might have wanted Roman Catholic schools, but in the end, they had no choice but to assimilate into the dominant culture. The retention of cultural hangovers did not retard basic cultural assimilation, given that they were far from home and surrounded by other, very different, groups.

This is the case for Mexican-Americans in Chicago or Alaska, whether citizens, permanent residents or illegal immigrants. In such locales, they form a substantial but ultimately isolated group, surrounded by other, larger groups and generally integrated into the society and economy. Success requires that subsequent generations follow the path of prior immigrants and integrate. This is not the case, however, for Mexicans moving into the borderlands conquered by the United States just as it is not the case in other borderlands around the world. Immigrant populations in this region are not physically separated from their homeland, but rather can be seen as culturally extending their homeland northward — in this case not into alien territory, but into historically Mexican lands.

This is no different from what takes place in borderlands the world over. The political border moves because of war. Members of an alien population suddenly become citizens of a new country. Sometimes, massive waves of immigrants from the group that originally controlled the territory politically move there, undertaking new citizenship or refusing to do so. The cultural status of the borderland shifts between waves of ethnic cleansing and population movement. Politics and economics mix, sometimes peacefully and sometimes explosively.

The Mexican-American War established the political boundary between the two countries. Economic forces on both sides of the border have encouraged both legal and illegal immigration north into the borderland — the area occupied by the United States. The cultural character of the borderland is shifting as the economic and demographic process accelerates. The political border stays were it is while the cultural border moves northward.

The underlying fear of those opposing this process is not economic (although it is frequently expressed that way), but much deeper: It is the fear that the massive population movement will ultimately reverse the military outcome of the 1830s and 1840s, returning the region to Mexico culturally or even politically. Such borderland conflicts rage throughout the world. The fear is that it will rage here.

The problem is that Mexicans are not seen in the traditional context of immigration to the United States. As I have said, some see them as extending their homeland into the United States, rather than as leaving their homeland and coming to the United States. Moreover, by treating illegal immigration as an acceptable mode of immigration, a sense of helplessness is created, a feeling that the prior order of society was being profoundly and illegally changed. And finally, when those who express these concerns are demonized, they become radicalized. The tension between Washington and Arizona — between those who benefit from the migration and those who don’t — and the tension between Mexican-Americans who are legal residents and citizens of the United States and support illegal immigration and non-Mexicans who oppose illegal immigration creates a potentially explosive situation.

Centuries ago, Scots moved to Northern Ireland after the English conquered it. The question of Northern Ireland, a borderland, was never quite settled. Similarly, Albanians moved to now-independent Kosovo, where tensions remain high. The world is filled with borderlands where political and cultural borders don’t coincide and where one group wants to change the political border that another group sees as sacred.

Migration to the United States is a normal process. Migration into the borderlands from Mexico is not. The land was seized from Mexico by force, territory now experiencing a massive national movement — legal and illegal — changing the cultural character of the region. It should come as no surprise that this is destabilizing the region, as instability naturally flows from such forces.

Jewish migration to modern-day Israel represents a worst-case scenario for borderlands. An absence of stable political agreements undergirding this movement characterized this process. One of the characteristics of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is mutual demonization. In the case of Arizona, demonization between the two sides also runs deep. The portrayal of supporters of Arizona’s new law as racist and the characterization of critics of that law as un-American is neither new nor promising. It is the way things would sound in a situation likely to get out of hand.

Ultimately, this is not about the Arizona question. It is about the relationship between Mexico and the United States on a range of issues, immigration merely being one of them. The problem as I see it is that the immigration issue is being treated as an internal debate among Americans when it is really about reaching an understanding with Mexico. Immigration has been treated as a subnational issue involving individuals. It is in fact a geopolitical issue between two nation-states. Over the past decades, Washington has tried to avoid turning immigration into an international matter, portraying it rather as an American law enforcement issue. In my view, it cannot be contained in that box any longer.



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Reply #1 Top

Now, I know many of you people are strongly into the mindset that "the issue is Arizona's regional struggle, the rest of the U.S. shouldn't interfere". But I think Friedman makes a point regarding it being just the lastest striffe sparking from the U.S./Mexico somewhat cloudy relationship.

Since the issue of alien crossing spreads across the whole southern border, and not just Arizona, any tentative to try to seriously tackle the issue shouldn't be just Arizona's, or Texas'.

Although I guess a local legislation should be drawn by the local government, obviously. hmm.. And, off course, if Washington's interest diverge from the Southern States... Hmm.. I want to know, is it possible to have inter-state projects and/or legislation without it being the Federal Government's jurisdiction? Like, if the Southern States decided to create a uniformed policy?

Reply #2 Top

Well, I can honestly say this is not his worst shlock job.  Just the second worst.  He has a lot of opinions (and you know the cliche about them) and it appears most of them came from what that cliche says about opinions.

He starts off wrong and goes down hill from there.  Mexico was never a threat to America.  It had bigger problems.  Namely Spain (since Spain was getting the crap kicked out of it by the English and French).  It was not until the latter half of the 20th century that Mexico started to grow up (and doing a poor job of that - see a discussion Leauki and I had on the differences between Spanish Colonies and English ones).

Nor was Jackson some kind of Machiavellian prince.  The undoing of Tejas was pure stupidity on the ruling elite in Mexico during the colonization of the state.  They started out doing things right, and wound up pissing off those Texas Boys, and lost to what amounted to a rag tag militia.  Hardly a threat to the US and not the doing of Jackson.

So his basic premise is all wrong.  And his modern day statements are just plain dumb.  Mexico had an opportunity at this beginning of this century to get things settled, and indeed things were trending that way.  But of course what stopped it was the War on Terror (Bush turned his attention away) and the chronic corruption of Mexican society (it makes Chicago look almost saintly).

The current situation is not about Arizona (that much he did get right, but for the wrong reasons), but it is about bully and bullied.  Mexico, Calderon, and the ruling elite there are not stupid.  They know when they have a patsy in DC, and boy do they lick their chops about Obama! (As do all the despots in the world as evidenced by the failures of this regime to do anything).  They are not looking for a war (they never were up to the task), but they are looking to benefit from the dissension that the current administration (not Mexico, although they came dangerously close to it) is sowing within the borders of the US.

There is a very good reason that while illegal immigration was ignored over the first 8 years of this century, it was not a major issue it is today.  Bush is no ones fool.  But as we see, Obama is clearly everyone's bitch.

Relations with Mexico have been damaged.  But not due to any actions of the US.  Due to the incompetency of the current administration.  Should we survive this fools paradise, relations will again improve with a strong president that Mexico realizes will brook no meddling in our borders.  Right now, they have carte blanche in that regard, and they know it.

Reply #3 Top

Not to be dismissive of your opinion, Guy, but what have you Doctored in? I mean, how long have you spend studying history? What level of research have you spent into learning about U.S./Mexican history of the early 19th century?

'cause you'll forgive me if I don't take what you say as pure cash when it directly oppose Friedman's opinion.

They know when they have a patsy in DC, and boy do they lick their chops about Obama!

wait, you say that, and then:

But of course what stopped it was the War on Terror (Bush turned his attention away)

So... you give Bush an excuse, but not Obama?

If Bush has been incompetent and let the situation degenerate during 7 of his 8 years of reign, it was because he was distracted? While if Obama doesn't do the job at fixing the degenerated situation, it's because he's a wimp?

I mean, at least, couldn't you just consider that Obama's been kinda busy too, with the economic crisis, healthcare reform, political rounds in Middle-East, East-Asia and Eastern Europe?

Don't turn this into a Obamabash fest. Damn it. That's why everytime I come to post something remotely interesting, you people just come across and use EVERY FUCKING SENTENCE POSSIBLE to bash MINDLESSLY at a fucking president. I mean, people on this FUCKING BLOG are dreaming about how in the years of Bush, the world respected you as now, they don't.

WAKE UP! The last years of Bush have been one where your president was one of the most impotent leader in the world! Nobody listened at him. He couldn't get any deals done. Everybody just knew he was going to leave the stage soon, that his own country's legislative branch despised him. You want weakness? THAT was a time of weakness. he was the fool, the impotent, the looser.

ARG. And that some people actually think that people RESPECTED YOU? Iran got it's greatest increase of power under his watch. Kim Jong Il kept on going with his missile and nuke test without any problem. Russia's actions brough Ukraine into its fold. Russia went and raped Georgia, the very country Bush has assured he'd protect. You had to economically twist arms to get allies into Iraq, while two years before, your allies jumped to help you in Afghanistan.

I really, really fail to see what was so great about Bush's era that has deteriorated since Obama took over. You are just a fucking bunch of bigots against anything that isn't remotely close to your political spectrum, and will fucking hate ANYTHING that comes out of there. there is no room for compromise. No room for negociation. You HAVE to oppose Obama and his administration. Why? BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO OPPOSE HIM! No matter what, where, how, why he will bring foward elements, EVERY FUCKING THING he does is wrong, corrupted, lazy, manipulative!

You set up standards of failure that leave no room for victory. You claim that the president is impotent, and to prove your point, the republicans are opposing him on stupid ideological arguments to PROVE that he is weak and impotent. That mindless opposition is what makes him impotent. But then, when back dealings happen, the President becomes an "immoral" and "black-box" the process. Even if the mindless opposition would have simply blocked, opposed, denounced every dealings on the PRINCIPLE OF OPPOSITION, and prevented anything done.

Face, I win. Tail, you lose. That is how you define politics in the USA, when Obama is concerned. He can't win, because you have removed every single philosophical way for him to win. Either, he's impotent who can't achieve anything, and he has to be opposed. Otherwise, he's a meddler who put his nose where he shouldn't and mess up the situation with clumsy federal bureaucracy.

I don't mind the Tea-Partiers. I don't mind the republicans. I don't mind conservative, and in restrospect, I don't think Bush was that bad, and I think a lot of flak he got wasn't justified.

But I do mind fucking mindless opposition.

/fucking rant.

Damn it, I got sidetracked. I think I was holding this in for the past 4 months.

Reply #4 Top

'cause you'll forgive me if I don't take what you say as pure cash when it directly oppose Friedman's opinion.

Whether my degree is in astro biology or Ancient Chinese, does not matter.  I was not speaking from a podium of doctorate (or I would have pontificated on all my credentials), but of my opinion.  Now of the facts I dished out, I would be happy to back them up with attributions if you need, but understand that history is 1 part facts, and 5 parts interpretation (unfortunately).  We do not know what Lincoln was thinking when Lincoln started deporting copperheads to the south, only that he did.

So... you give Bush an excuse, but not Obama?

Different contexts, was it not?  What stopped the attention Bush was paying Mexico (and the improving relations) was his distractions.  Obama can be said to be distracted, but that is not what I accused him of.  I accused him of being a patsy.  An empty suit.  Basically one who has no steel in his words, just empty rhetoric.  You can accuse Bush of the same, I did not go into that aspect of Bush (but that was one thing even his detractors never accused him of).

If Bush has been incompetent and let the situation degenerate during 7 of his 8 years of reign, it was because he was distracted?

I did not say that. He did not let the situation deteriorate - he did not work on solidifying it.  He started strong in that regard (Fox and Bush had a close relationship), but no one said it deteriorated.  I said that of Obama and Calderon.  You are free to say it of Bush and Fox if you like, but I will disagree.

I mean, at least, couldn't you just consider that Obama's been kinda busy too,

Yes, Golf is a demanding sport.  And planning 3 vacations in 2 months is also very taxing.

Don't turn this into a Obamabash fest. Damn it.

That cannot be helped.  he is at the core of the issue and problem.  The topic is the Arizona and border that Obama has stated flat out he will not address until the republicans cave to him on other issues.  That (at least in my book) is gross malfeasance of his office and pure incompetence.

to bash MINDLESSLY at a fucking president.

Not mindlessly.  I backed up my assertions with facts and opinions.  It is not a bash Obama fest.  But what you seem to fail to understand is that the problem IS Obama.  he is chasing socialistic rainbows and neglecting the economy (been over 9% ofr well over a year now), the borders (people are dying because of his petulance with the republicans - which he does not need given his majorities in both houses).  The problem with trying to take Obama out of it is that he is running (and ruining) all of it.

WAKE UP! The last years of Bush have been one where your president was one of the most impotent leader in the world!

Best recheck your facts.  He was not liked at all, but he was very well respected.  They knew he was a man of his words and his words - like them or not, and many did not - carried steel.

Iran got it's greatest increase of power under his watch. Kim Jong Il kept on going with his missile and nuke test without any problem. Russia's actions brough Ukraine into its fold. Russia went and raped Georgia, the very country Bush has assured he'd protect. You had to economically twist arms to get allies into Iraq, while two years before, your allies jumped to help you in Afghanistan.

1. Iran did not get its greatest increase until he was GONE.  They were then emboldened to flaunt and work on openly their nuclear option.  Something they dared not do under Bush.

2.  Ditto NK.

3. Ukraine was never off the leash.  Had he been given a few more years, Bush may have been able to get them to slip it, but they were never more than a missile throw from the stepps.

4. Yes, that did happen under Bush's watch - at the end, when he was left with few alternatives to force them to back down (being that the end was near).  So he could have started that (I grant you that), and what would have Obama done?  What did he do?  Nothing.

I really, really fail to see what was so great about Bush's era

Less about what was so great as to what is so bad now.  Bush was no Reagan, but then Obama is bound and determined to make Carter look like a Reagan too.

You are just a fucking bunch of bigots against anything that isn't remotely close to your political spectrum, and will fucking hate ANYTHING that comes out of there. there is no room for compromise. No room for negociation.

1. You are going to get nowhere pulling the lame liberal line.  If you want to talk about being a bigot, I have 2 barrels loaded and aimed.

2. And just what are we supposed to be happy about with Obama?  Dead Serious - what has he done that is any good?  Name one thing.

You set up standards of failure that leave no room for victory.

No, you have it backwards.  he sets the standards of failure that cannot be topped.  Again, he has had 18 months and what has he to show for it?  NOTHING!  He has pissed off his wing with the stupid laws he has passed (that are making lawyers rich) and done noting for the other 299 million Americans.  NOTHING.

Face, I win. Tail, you lose. That is how you define politics in the USA, when Obama is concerned. He can't win,

He cant win because he is not playing.  He has already decided he did not like the rules and taken his ball and gone to his democrat home, and still blames everyone else for his failures!  He has the largest majorities of any president since FDR, and his excuse is still - The Republicans are not helping!  He does not need their help!  And yet, has he done anything?  Not if you listen to his speeches!  It is all the republicans and Bush's fault! 

But I do mind fucking mindless opposition.

You will find plenty of it.  But not from me.  I have not been a one man Anti-Obama rant for the last 18 months.  Hell, the number of times I have ranted about him can  be counted on the fingers on one hand!  This being one of them.  But I am not some PC snot that quivers at the mere threat of being called a racist or bigot.  I KNOW why i do not like, respect or honor the sniveling excuse of a president.

You know me better than that.  I disagreed with Friedman but Obama was only a small part of my disagreement.  You turned it into a rant and an Obama issue.

Reply #5 Top

Until the Mexican-American War, it was not clear whether the dominant power in North America would have its capital in Washington or Mexico City. Mexico was the older society with a substantially larger military. The United States, having been founded east of the Appalachian Mountains, had been a weak and vulnerable country. At its founding, it lacked strategic depth and adequate north-south transportation routes. The ability of one colony to support another in the event of war was limited. More important, the United States had the most vulnerable of economies: It was heavily dependent on maritime exports and lacked a navy able to protect its sea-lanes against more powerful European powers like England and Spain. The War of 1812 showed the deep weakness of the United States. By contrast, Mexico had greater strategic depth and less dependence on exports.

The problem with academics even self-appointed ones is that they are not based in reality. If you need theories or misrepresented facts, well, that’s who to look for. My short version of the Mexican-American war goes like this:

The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S. annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory despite the 1836 Texas Revolution. Mexico was riven by bitter internal political battles that verged on civil war, even as it was united in refusing to recognize the independence of Texas. Mexico threatened war with the U.S. if it annexed Texas. Yea, like that was pretty much ignored by the strife ridden strategically handicapped weak and vulnerable United States lacking a substantial war machine wasn’t it? Meanwhile the spirit of Manifest Destiny (not your poppycock) was focusing American interest on westward expansion. In addition to a naval blockade of the Mexican coast, American forces invaded and conquered New Mexico, California, and parts of northern Mexico. Another American army captured Mexico City, forcing Mexico to agree to the sale of its northern territories to the U.S. The major consequence of the war was the Mexican Cession of the territories of California and New Mexico to the United States in exchange for $15 million. In addition, the United States forgave debt owed by the Mexican government to U.S. citizens. Mexico accepted the Rio Grande as its national border, and the loss of Texas. What is so confusing to you?

I do not have the patience of Dr. Guy to go through and pick out the misrepresentations and outright lies, but from reading it over, I am convinced I can find several things he missed. This is nothing more than another liberal trying to rewrite history to ‘justify’ the dissolution of the Rio Grande, not literally of course. In parts, there is an attempt at the truth but only in the sense of camouflage, the intent being to rewrite our history in sympathy for Mexico and its citizens. Sounds like a prince to me.

Reply #6 Top

My short version of the Mexican-American war goes like this:

Is it in fact your short version or cut, paste, and then doctored from Wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

Reply #7 Top

They are not looking for a war (they never were up to the task), but they are looking to benefit from the dissension that the current administration (not Mexico, although they came dangerously close to it) is sowing within the borders of the US.

I agree with this except for who you think is sowing the dissension. Looks to me like congress not the executive branch. Congress lit the match just in time for election season and the media circus is pouring on the gasoline.

 

Reply #8 Top

I agree with this except for who you think is sowing the dissension. Looks to me like congress not the executive branch. Congress lit the match just in time for election season and the media circus is pouring on the gasoline.

Which came first - the chicken or the egg.  I do not hold congress guiltless, but they do not run the Justice Department.

Reply #9 Top

Which came first - the chicken or the egg. I do not hold congress guiltless, but they do not run the Justice Department

This is true but its a sensitive complicated issue.  If they just start throwing people out it will light a powder keg so their policy right now seems to be focused on the drug trafficking and more violent crimes. Add to that the fact that Fox just suggested to Calderon to legalize trafficking on the Mexican side which could possibly change the situation a "tad".

Reply #11 Top

Fox who?

Vincente

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Smoothseas, reply 11

Fox who?


Vincente

Thought so, thanks for the clarification.

But I do ask you this, why would Calderon listen to anything Fox suggested? Wouldn't that be paramount to Obama asking GW Bush his opinion? In fact I'm more inclined to believe Obama and Calderon would listen to each other's advice over their predecessor's any day of the week.

Reply #13 Top

But I do ask you this, why would Calderon listen to anything Fox suggested?

Because Calderon had some kind of open forum last week and that was something discussed.....Last year they decriminalized small quantities of drugs and have been looking at the effects of that so  I don't doubt they'll do it.  Its a mess down there right now. They arrested four of their police cdrs or something this morning. I guess we are sending more resources to the border in addition to what we just sent a week or two ago and issued some ICE directives  to prioritize traffickers. 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Nitro, reply 12
But I do ask you this, why would Calderon listen to anything Fox suggested? Wouldn't that be paramount to Obama asking GW Bush his opinion? In fact I'm more inclined to believe Obama and Calderon would listen to each other's advice over their predecessor's any day of the week.

I see it more as Bush asking Clinton to be the face of the Tsunami disaster.  Rivals, yes.  But the issue apparently transcends politics, as does the drug issue in Mexico.  Now whether they are misguided (legalizing it) or on to something is another issue.  But that it is the number one issue in at least northern Mexico is a given,

Reply #15 Top

I still would not believe Calderon would do it at Fox's request or recommendation, there would have to be something more in line with Calderon's ideology driving it. Not like he has much control over the issue one way or the other.

Reply #16 Top

I still would not believe Calderon would do it at Fox's request or recommendation,

Neither do I. It's simply something from a recent AP story I saw about an issue they have at the forefront.

 

there would have to be something more in line with Calderon's ideology driving it

Calderon says publicly(atleast) that he is still against it but considering it as an option.

Reply #17 Top

Side bar to the Calderon/Fox debate is that the justification being used is just plain wrong.  Fox wants to minimize the power of the cartels.  Yet they power of the cartels is not coming from the status of narcotics in Mexico, but the US.  They get chump change in Mexico, but major bucks from America.  And if that is their justification/reasoning, they are going to make a colossal mistake.

Reply #18 Top

They get chump change in Mexico, but major bucks from America. And if that is their justification/reasoning, they are going to make a colossal mistake.

Agreed, but then there are the folks up and down the food chain, that get the bribes and kick-backs. Might not be the amount of money the cartels get, but probably not bad for Mexican living standards.

I'm not entirely convinced Calderon (or Fox for that matter) are completely clean behind closed doors. They would be so easy to get to in the corrupt environment they dwell in, yet no attempts.

Reply #19 Top

I don't think it will break the economic backs of the cartels but it may reduce the violence. Calderon says the violence is affecting their tourism industry and scaring away investment dollars. I don't know if it would change things on our side of the border, still pondering scenerios. Any ideas?

Reply #20 Top

Agreed, but then there are the folks up and down the food chain, that get the bribes and kick-backs. Might not be the amount of money the cartels get, but probably not bad for Mexican living standards.

I was not clear.  The members and "bought" officials of the cartel are indeed enriching themselves.  But the power comes from the money the Cartels earn and that money comes from the American connection.  Legalizing drugs in Mexico will not dry up the money conduit, nor the ferocity of the drug gangs (they seem to be carving out territory, not hiding from the Federales).

 

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Smoothseas, reply 19
I don't think it will break the economic backs of the cartels but it may reduce the violence. Calderon says the violence is affecting their tourism industry and scaring away investment dollars. I don't know if it would change things on our side of the border, still pondering scenerios. Any ideas?

it would if most of the violence was from the Cartels trying to run from the law in Mexico.  But as we already know, most of the violence is from trying to carve out bigger and bigger slices of the pie among the Cartels.  Legalizing it the Mexican side will not remove the fact that it will still be illegal to import into the US and thus very profitable to do so.  So Mexico can then decide on one of 2 courses.  Continue to go after the criminals or cede power to them.  It will not solve the problem, nor make it better.  The former is the status quo, the later means that they will be at war with the next administration.