A Talk with Frogboy on making HUGE Map Sizes

That is awesome.

Even more awesome how easy it is once you know how. 

This is getting scary.

nice, going to make a crazy crazy crazy mega large map or the max that doesn't crash.

Awesome!

One thing this tells me is that we need a Mod-Wiki, not only to document where/how to edit things, but also what all of these data types actually translate to. For example, I have no idea what any of those numbers in the XML actually do, except you make larger numbers for larger maps haha.

Thx for sharing & thx @ Froggy for telling us

some how this thread is going to cause the death of my computer or a golden age of map making...

Excellent! I was actually planning to dig through the map XML today to see if it was possible to make bigger maps, but this saves me the trouble

The first one I loaded up in the 20's didn't do too well on stability. Perhaps when those memory issues Frogboy mentions are smoothed over, but even on my 6Gigs of memory system it didn't last long. I'm trying a 12x12 right now and it seems fine. For some reason even when I assign the numbers in XML to be 12x12 it comes out to 14x14 in actual squares, so somewhere or somehow two extra squares seem to be added to the size. 14x14 seems to be a good starting point for Kyrnn though, so I'm happy .

I'm going to run some basic tests by mapping out just the land mass with no details to see how everything will fit. I'll know part way through if this will be big enough or if I'll need to up the space a little bit.

The coolest thing is, between now and release (and after) is that memory and stability are only going to get better and better. There really are no limits here aside from the Hardware limits of the systems running it. Way to go Stardock

The number values assign sizes to the map sectors and assign the number of different kinds of spawns like spawns for land types. Still, when making a big map, for right now leave everything blank like Frogboy says. He says so in his original modding post as well. Something or other because of a kink that's being worked out in the generation systems. Custom doing the whole thing is the way to go anyway

Np

Both lol

Awesome Vid chief

These extra-large map sizes are where we're going to see issues between 32-bit and 64-bit systems, wrt memory usage.

Pretty sure large maps were indicated as one reason they wanted to have 64-bit support early on in development, though I haven't looked for that post (from sometime last year, I suppose).

On a related note, is it possible to have multiple maps as part of a game, and transition between those maps with game state saved between transitions?  The concept is to have a set of maps linked, becoming a tapestry of maps that can be added and connected as needed.  An approach familiar to those that have played on or developed multi-server persistent worlds for Neverwinter Nights.

I was a map maker on a NwN Shard called "Tales of Illuvitar" for a while that was a UO server before that. We had Map in Map functionality there but I don't remember there being a save state behind it, more of an area transition. We would make a "Master Map" or an area, then make smaller maps and attach them to the Master map with area transitions on the entrances and exits. I don't have a clue where to begin incorporating a system like that here though.

Man that is cool, talking to the man himself! Talk about customer support, I am spoiled now on other game companies! To my knowledge there is no other company that is this open or responsive! This really helped to lighten my mood today, thanks !  I still want a cigarette though , quitting smoking is no fun!!!! 

I'm curious about this too, because one thing I've wanted to do with some mod ideas in my head is create dungeons with an overworld map.

Raven X:

That sounds more like the built-in NWN map transition (at least how I'm reading your description).  Nothing special there as far as game data saves - it just happened.

I'm talking more about the persistent worlds that ran multiple interconnected servers.  Some examples include Exaria (two servers), the Avlis and CoPaP servers (dozen or more...iirc) and ALFA (many servers).  When a character transitioned from one physical server running a module to a different server running a (technically) separate module, a 3rd party database/server connector such as NWNX stored variables about that character in mysql (or whatever database you wanted, I suppose), including a link the character file itself, inventory items, equipped items, etc.  To the player, the transitiion was much like a normal map area transition, though it took slightly longer.

Applying the same concept here for Elemental, one map maker could create a continent, another could do the same, and a player could take his/her character and run between them as if they were part of the same game.  The possibilities then are magnified, since different modders and teams can work concurrently to create an incredibly large "world" of maps without needing a terabyte or two of RAM to load one single monstrously huge map world.  If there is interest in modding Elemental into an full-on RPG (and there is interest, based on what I'm seeing) this would help tremendously speed up the process of creating incredibly large and long-running adventures.

There is one way I can think to do it now, but, it's a slight trade off. Make the Map for the New Location a Tactical Map and assign that map to a specific spot on the world map. When the player steps on that spot they enter combat and when the tactical map loads up it can be the interior of a dungeon or building.

The "Trade Off" is if you make a huge dungeon the player will be forced to wander around in it on a turn based level as that's how tactical combat works. Still, it's something I'm thinking about using in the DL Mod unless we get a way to load a map within a map by then.

True, I guess I could use tactical maps. Hopefully I'll be able to make some decent sized and interesting things with it. One thing though, can I make a tactical map spawn within a tactical map (if not through XML, then at least with python)? I'm also a sucker for multi-leveled dungeons, or secret passages, etc. Think Diablo.

There may be a way to turn off the turn based stuff with python too. If not, it's not a HUGE deal, because then I could make it play like the old school Fallout games.

Ahh ok, I see what you mean now, yes. On Tales we had two or three servers but not for different maps. All the maps were handled on one server as far as I know. Our other servers were running a active weather system (really impressive for a free NwN  shard) and some spawn servers. I didn't do any of the coding or anything, all I did was make maps. I didn't even have to add in spawns as that was handled by our coder, though I did put in Boss Monsters that I created. Once I made a HUGE Labyrinth with a Liche in the center of the bottom level. It was awesome watching players go through it. I had a handful of favorite players I would use to test my maps on. I'd get ahold of them then host the map myself on my system and have them join the game and run through it. Players would get lost for hours in the labyrinth, man it was awesome....*sigh* Good Times, Good Times

On a side note, I can't even remember the name of the map now. I know I named it after the Liche I put in it and the quest I formed around it. From what I understood it became really popular in the community even after I stopped being a GM. I want to say I called it "The *blank* Crypt" with *blank* being the Liche's name but it was so long ago now it's really hard to recall. I think I was going by the name GM Oberon on Tales (Tales of Illuvitar) and I know I attached the GM name I used at the time to the map. It was either GM Oberon or GM Thanatos, one of the two.

Really, the first step in making awesome sized maps of epicness that'll take months to finish. Yes.

Am I missing something here?  I copy-pasted the XML code (removing the line numbers/# signs) and saved the file as "LA_MapSizes.xml".  I put it into My Games\Elemental\Units, and have "Use mods" checked in the Options menu.  Yet when I go to the map editor, only the standard sizes appear--this one doesn't.  Are there any other settings I have to mess around with?

Which one did you copy?

Here's the one I'm using now:

I made a new XML file and named it "CoreMapsCrazySize.XML" and droped it in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Stardock Games\Elemental\data\English folder. It should show up when you're picking the size to make a new map in the editor. Also, when generating the map make sure you start with everything blank.

The file path Brad mentioned apparently was for a pre-release version. (data/English)

I've had more luck with My Games/Elemental/Units in your Windows Documents folder. My Games/Elemental/ is the place for user modifications I guess.

Yes, the file paths have changed a bit. Also, make sure you have the "Use Mods" tab checked in the Options Screen.

I made a 20x20 size map and am playing on it hehe.

This is really awesome... *unbelief*

you love smiley faces haha