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On to BETA 4!

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On to BETA 4!

from JoeUser Forums

Greetings!

Yesterday we got Beta 3B out the door. We still have a lot of work to do on stability. At the start of Beta 3, we were running about 50 engineering hours ahead of schedule.  As we head into Beta 4, we’re approximately on schedule now (tactical battles have been more problematic than anticipated).

We’ve gotten a ton of data from the beta community both in terms of crash reports, general glitches, game suggestions, memory problems, etc.

As for me, I live in the AI.

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I live in the land of temptation (see above screenshot).

When coding AI, things don’t look as pretty for me as they do for you guys. For me, basic mode is my mode (Beta 1 mode) since it lets me focus on just the core game.

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Having magical spells adds a whole new dimension to AI coding. It’s a real challenge to know when the right time to cast a spell is.  So that’s what I’ve been working on today.

Meanwhile…

The tactical team has been working on some of the cheese that slipped through (bows and spells being over-powered).  I had one of my AI players train archers and it quickly walked over all the other AI players without a problem which demonstrated a real problem with how bows and spells were working. The beta community confirmed the problem as well and so that was something that got zapped today.

UI UI UI

We’re not happy with the UI in general. Luckily, it’s fairly trivial for us to make changes. So expect to see some changes in this area before release.

Tech Tree balancing

There’s going to be quite a few new technologies in the Adventure, Magic, and Diplomacy technology trees.  We want to make these areas more exciting and have a more definitive impact on the game (or specifically a FUN impact on a given game).

Anyway, that’s all for tonight. Back to the AI.

237,048 views 76 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

I made a company of elite hatchetmen...

The company had 300 Hp, 250 Atk, 110 Def.

Everyones talking about ways to increase HP... They already have two ways.

First increasing the training of a unit boosts HP, actually... That's ALL higher training does.

Secondly grouping units into squads or companies allows them to share HP as well as other stats.

Hence elite + company = tons of HP.

That is for units. Champions need a better way to increase THEIR HP. Perhaps making each point of con worth 3 HP instead of 1?

Start with 30 or so HP on a champion and get +6 extra HP when raising Con. As it is now, Con is such a faulty thing to increase when compared to other stats the only reason to add to it is to gimp your character.

I also wouldn't be against having flat damage reduction for every 10 points of Con. Every 10 Con = 1 point of flat Damage reduction. As it is con is a joke when compared to Str and Dex.

As for normal units getting tons of HP, that's just a lame idea. I don't care if my knights are drilled like spartans, they shouldn't have HP above 30 points. The relative weakness of a single unit is the whole reason for grouping them together in squads and companies in the first place.

Did you even add training or group them?

On an unrelated note...

I agree with everyone saying

Attack/Damage should be split

Defense/Armor should be split

Movement/Attack speed should be split.

 

Strength should influence Damage in melee and to a lesser degree attack rating.

Dexterity should influence Defense and to a lesser degree attack rating.

Constitution should influence Hit points and natural armor bonus.

Intelligence should influence spell power and damage.

Wisdom should influence spell hit chance and resistance, maybe also reduce spell costs based on a percentage of Wisdom. Wisdom of 20 = 20% Spell cost discount. Should cap at 50% though.

Essence should influence Mana cap and perhaps the chance for a "Spell Surge" or the equivalent of a critical hit with magic.

Charisma should influence Champion recruitment costs and grant a bonus to diplomatic capital.

Base HP should be 3 points per Constitution.

The main thing I hate about the current system is that certain stats just seem utterly worthless. Like they aren't worth bothering with.

My warrior just adds to Str and Dex and owns.

My mage just adds to Int and Ess and owns.

They really need to make the other stats more meaningful and worthwhile.

 

 

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

Everyones talking about ways to increase HP

Not everyone! I started talking about how weapon damage is way out of proportion with HP and Defense values, resulting in most battles just being one-hit kill trading with glass cannon units. In fact, my suggestion was to balance out weapon damage and defense ratings, since those are the two things that determine damage in combat. If you get units with 40+ damage, when you can only have something like 15-20 Defense (which costs a ton more for all the armor pieces than a weapon), that's a huge disparity and basically results in a one-hit-kill.

 

Object Desktop - Get all of our enhancement utilities in one suite
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting timothydelisle, reply 39
A lot of people are talking about there not being enough HP on units, and to a degree I agree.  But, the idea that one good hit from a big sword will kill you if not dodged or deflected is pretty realistic.  I like that it is hard to get hitpoints.  It would be hard to have big epic armies if a stack of two or three units could stand up to almost anything on the map.

It is realistic. It also tends to be very not fun in turn based video games, since he who attacks first wins.

I think that while some of the weapons do seem to be overpowered in relation to the HP, I don't think the answer is to raise HP or lower the attack of the weapons.  I think the answer is to make the extreemly highly powered weapons much harder to get.  I think the answer to this would be time in troop training.  While it would be unrealistic to have a powerful sword cost 50 metal or something, I don't think it would be unrealisitic to have it take a much longer time to train units who are going to be wielding powerful weapons.

If we were talking about "extremely highly powered weapons", then I'd agree. But we're talking about Shortbows: The most basic ranged weapon in the game. When units with basic weapons can go around killing everything in sight in one turn, there is a problem with the weapon damage.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

I got a Dragon once. I seem to remember it had 100 HP. Point being there are high hp units that you can get

I got him also but I could have sworn he had like 800 hp.  I think his attack was 100 maybe?  That was 3B though so maybe that's not the case anymore.

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

If we were talking about "extremely highly powered weapons", then I'd agree. But we're talking about Shortbows: The most basic ranged weapon in the game. When units with basic weapons can go around killing everything in sight in one turn, there is a problem with the weapon damage.

Melee weapons get pretty high, too. Sure you can fit your guy with the best armor so that you have a chance to not die in one hit if your defense roll is high enough, but how much more expensive is that compared to the sword you're trying to counter?

Does anyone even mix/match armor? I never have, and for me at least it'd make sense instead of having individual pieces for your units, you just have a "set" after your research, and make that set comparable in stats and cost to a similarly ranked basic weapon (buff armor, nerf weapons, buff and nerf at the same time - whatever). That way your fully armored unit doesn't cost 10x more than an unarmored one just for a chance to not die in one hit.

Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think it'd help even if you do have high defense. Since defense is roll based and the cap is so low, even a unit with 50 HP and 200 defense can still be one shot by another unit with 100 attack if the rolls fall the right way. (You could also take no damage at all, it's pretty volatile.)

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

True, but on average that wouldn't happen too often. You could think of them as glancing blows (100 atk vs 50 def doing 10-20 damage) or critical hits (50 attack vs 100 defense doing 40-50 damage). Either way, it will equalize it a lot more than it is now. I don't see SD being very happy about changing the battle mechanic too much, so tweaking these numbers is proably about the best we can hope for for release. After release, who knows.

At the very least it'll make it go either way, right now with a lot of things even if you roll near max defense, you still die often.

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

For those interested, in reply #22 in the thread "how combat rating is figured" https://forums.elementalgame.com/384546/page/1/ 

the average value of damage from various combination of ATK and DEF

I have done some calculations based on the algorithm exposed Tridus and assuming that when a number between 0 and N is rolled, all integer values from 0 to N have the same probability. The results are roughly the following (if my calculations are correct):

If you are facing an opponent with 0 DEF, you will roughly do an average damage  of your ATK/2 per swing.

If you are facing an opponent with the same DEF than your attack, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/3  per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 2 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/6 per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 4 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/12 per swing

Reply #59 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Saije, reply 51
I made a company of elite hatchetmen...

The company had 300 Hp, 250 Atk, 110 Def.

Everyones talking about ways to increase HP... They already have two ways.

First increasing the training of a unit boosts HP, actually... That's ALL higher training does.

Secondly grouping units into squads or companies allows them to share HP as well as other stats.

:omg:  

Having not fought tactical battles beyond Sovereign vs 2-3 units, I don't really understand.

Does it mean that a company is treated as one big unit?

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes.

Reply #61 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Mandelik, reply 59

Quoting Saije, reply 51I made a company of elite hatchetmen...

The company had 300 Hp, 250 Atk, 110 Def.

Everyones talking about ways to increase HP... They already have two ways.

First increasing the training of a unit boosts HP, actually... That's ALL higher training does.

Secondly grouping units into squads or companies allows them to share HP as well as other stats.
 

Having not fought tactical battles beyond Sovereign vs 2-3 units, I don't really understand.

Does it mean that a company is treated as one big unit?

 

yes it's treated as a single unit.

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Peace, reply 58
For those interested, in reply #22 in the thread "how combat rating is figured" https://forums.elementalgame.com/384546/page/1/ 

the average value of damage from various combination of ATK and DEF


I have done some calculations based on the algorithm exposed Tridus and assuming that when a number between 0 and N is rolled, all integer values from 0 to N have the same probability. The results are roughly the following (if my calculations are correct):

If you are facing an opponent with 0 DEF, you will roughly do an average damage  of your ATK/2 per swing.

If you are facing an opponent with the same DEF than your attack, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/3  per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 2 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/6 per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 4 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/12 per swing

But what are the numbers for when attack is greater than def, which is essentially always the case currently? :P

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Werewindlefr, reply 13
Actually, we could use more flavorful/fantasy units -and not just summoned. More beasts, for instance. Or elite knight with high-end stats (much higher than the standard ones).

 

Black Knight

White Knight

lets steal some ideas from magic TG ~_^

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

My elite Bar Wenches shall own you all ;)

 

Bar Maiden -> minor caster

Harlot -> major caster

Mother Harlot -> Super Caster/Soveriegn

 

Bar Wench -> melee fighter

Elite Bar Wench -> Advanced melee fighter

Bar Mistress -> Highly Advanced Melee fighter

 

Seamstress -> Archer Unit

Elite Seamstress -> Advanced Archer Unit

Amazon -> Elite Archer Unit

Elite Amazon -> Horse Archer

 

Fair Maiden -> Mounted Fighter (melee)

Noble Maiden -> Advanced Mounted Fighter (melee)

Regal Maiden -> Elite Mounted Fighter (melee)

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

*sniff*   It seems like only yesterday the game was struggling to get past Beta 1.  Already its growing up so fast.

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

- Better Army Management needed.

- Civ Research incomplete, just says improvements to blah blah blah at a certain point.

- There is lag still there in 3C, possibly some memory leaks?

Reply #68 from Stardock Forums Top

been spaming the spell flood that seems to get a massive memory leak.

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 62

Quoting Peace Phoenix, reply 58For those interested, in reply #22 in the thread "how combat rating is figured" https://forums.elementalgame.com/384546/page/1/ 

the average value of damage from various combination of ATK and DEF


I have done some calculations based on the algorithm exposed Tridus and assuming that when a number between 0 and N is rolled, all integer values from 0 to N have the same probability. The results are roughly the following (if my calculations are correct):

If you are facing an opponent with 0 DEF, you will roughly do an average damage  of your ATK/2 per swing.

If you are facing an opponent with the same DEF than your attack, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/3  per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 2 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/6 per swing

if you are facing an opponent with a DEF equals to 4 times your ATK, you will roughly do an average damage of your ATK/12 per swing


But what are the numbers for when attack is greater than def, which is essentially always the case currently?

 

I'm pretty sure these values are wrong. If I remember correctly (and I just did a quick verification of the first one), the formula are (E = expected damage, A = attack rating, D = defense rating):

If A = D: E = A/6

If A < D: E = A*A/6*D

If A > D: E = A/2 - D/2 + D*D/6*A

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

I would dearly love if unit groups were handled on a per figure basis, ala Master of Magic..

Reply #71 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm pretty sure these values are wrong. If I remember correctly (and I just did a quick verification of the first one), the formula are (E = expected damage, A = attack rating, D = defense rating):

If A = D: E = A/6

If A < D: E = A*A/6*D

If A > D: E = A/2 - D/2 + D*D/6*A

You are correct, my values were wrong. After having redone the calculations the exact values are:

If A = D: E = A*(A+2)/6*(D+1) = (A+1)/6 - 1/6*(A+1)

If A < D: E = A*(A+2)/6*(D+1) = (A+1)*(A+1)/6*(D+1) - 1/6*(D+1)

If A > D: E = A/2 - D/2 + D*(D+2)/6*(A+1) = A/2 - D/2 + (D+1)*(D+1)/6*(A+1) - 1/6*(A+1)

Reply #72 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DeadlyShoe, reply 70
I would dearly love if unit groups were handled on a per figure basis, ala Master of Magic..

Indeed. I was pretty surprised when I found out it wasn't the case.

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DeadlyShoe, reply 70
I would dearly love if unit groups were handled on a per figure basis, ala Master of Magic..

Agreed.

Reply #74 from Elemental Forums Top

No selectable "Way Points" for units in the Army build queue! Still


 

Reply #75 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DeadlyShoe, reply 70
I would dearly love if unit groups were handled on a per figure basis, ala Master of Magic..

 

I second this notion!