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Tactical Battle Evolution

Tactical Battle Evolution

Fleshing out its implemtnation

Beta 3B introduces the skeleton of tactical battles.

Here's the basic concept on how they're supposed to work:

Your Combat Speed is translated into action points. We do NOT use your Moves per turn stat (that's supposed to represent endurance and it's not subject to change).

The current system is, however, far too basic of course.  In this thread, we will discuss which aspects of MOM, HOMM, AOW, as well as new concepts you guys would like to see.

Below is the system we intend to implement and we look forward to your thoughts on this:

  1. When a unit attacks another unit, that units gets to retaliate (if it can) against the unit that attacked it.
  2. Action Points = 1 + Your Combat Speed.
  3. Moving a tile uses 2 action points.
  4. Attacking and casting a spell uses 1 action point.
  5. The placement of units on a map will be based on the the composition on the units going into the battle.
  6. Units will have various special abilities (that's why the action tab looks so blank right now).

These 6 things are what we consider the "basic" for day 0.

Obviously, right now, none of these 6 things are in. I am hoping to get a Beta 3C up on Monday that has them though.

On top of these 6 items there is what we consider "required" for v 1.1 (60 days or so after release):

  • More distinction in the action point cost
  • More finesse with regards to the counter attack (in v1.0, we don't plan the counter attack to absorb any action points from the next turn but this is something we want to explore so that ganging up on tough units is more viable).
  • A lot LOT LOT LOT more buffs/debuffs

In the long-term, we plan to keep evolving tactical battles based on feedback. It's not something we're going to push out there on day 0 and call it a day. But I also think it would be naive to think that by day 0 or day 120 that tactical battles will be the end all be all because there is just so much one can do with this area and it's not something that should ever be considered "finished".

392,522 views 274 replies
Reply #251 Top

Thanks for your quick answer.  I was not referring to comabat speed and strategic map speed being related, but combat speed and movement speed being related.  I understand that strategic map speed and tactical map speed are too very different things.  But tactical map attack and movement are not necessarily.  Will the attack and defense values (as well as damage and armor types) of various weapons and armor be more balanced so that fast units like horse archers don't get to cause lots of damage just by the virtue of having a fast combat speed?  And will the Action Points used (and minimum required AP to execute one more attack of a particular type) for melee, ranged and spell attacks be able to be modded on a per creature type/weapon type and per spell (different spell, different AP required) basis?

Thanks again for your very speedy reply. :wc:   I do hope Elemental gets at least very good reviews.  If it was totally based on the amount of hard work you guys have put in it would get a host of 9/10 reviews.

Best regards,
Steven.

Reply #252 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 249
The action point system is set up so that those with a high combat speed can basically go to down on others.

We do not want to hook this up to endurance (strategic map movement) because the two aren't really related.

The idea is that someone with a very high combat speed can do a lot of harm in a single tactical turn.

But high combat speed is useless without attack power. You can be really fast and not be able to get through the other guy's armor. 

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

This post could be understood as the hit and run tactic is legal. So you should be able to move, kill a unit, move to another unit and kill it if you have a high enough combat speed

Reply #253 Top

just move so you'rea djacent to more than one unit

Reply #254 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 249


In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

Reply #255 Top

Quoting Spitz, reply 254

Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

 

I agree.... How would armor stop a lightning bolt or a fireball

Reply #256 Top

Quoting Koalab, reply 255

Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.
 

I agree.... How would armor stop a lightning bolt or a fireball

 

Um...

 

Really?  You don't think a plate of steel could lessen the effect of a fire ball?

 

Oh, it's a MAGIC fireball though... well just add that armor penetrating flag to it then.

Reply #257 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 256

Quoting Koalab, reply 255
Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.
 

I agree.... How would armor stop a lightning bolt or a fireball
 

Um...

 

Really?  You don't think a plate of steel could lessen the effect of a fire ball?

 

Oh, it's a MAGIC fireball though... well just add that armor penetrating flag to it then.

 

Ah, but there's nothing like wearing a full set of conductive plate when hit by lightning, though, is there?

Reply #258 Top

Ah, but there's nothing like wearing a full set of conductive plate when hit by lightning, though, is there?

Not to mention it's not exactly comfortable wearing a scalding hot suit of metal armor in the case of fire :P

Reply #259 Top

Ah, but there's nothing like wearing a full set of conductive plate when hit by lightning, though, is there?

Well, if it is a full set of conductive plate, it could behave like a Farady's cage, in which case you may be safe ;)

Reply #260 Top

Quoting Peace, reply 259

Ah, but there's nothing like wearing a full set of conductive plate when hit by lightning, though, is there?
Well, if it is a full set of conductive plate, it could behave like a Farady's cage, in which case you may be safe

I was wondering if someone was going to bust me on that.  Yeah, if all the plates were linked and grounded, you probably would be safer. I wonder how much heating you'd get in a steel suit conducting 200,000 amps in a fraction of a second?

Any electrical damage mitigation from cloth or leather should be right out, though.  Leather actually might help a touch against temperature extremes, I suppose.

Still, I'd like to see a nuanced damage mitigation model where different materials protect differently against different damage types. Magical armors would have more magical defensive properties than mundane armor. Magical spells could simply increase resistance against certain damage types, instead of having the current all-or-nothing protective spells.

Reply #261 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 256

Um...

 

Really?  You don't think a plate of steel could lessen the effect of a fire ball?

 

Oh, it's a MAGIC fireball though... well just add that armor penetrating flag to it then.

Do I think a metal with fairly good heat transfer characteristics is going to protect me from heat? No, not really. It would be good at creating an environment for me to be roasted alive once the metal heats up though. :P

Reply #262 Top

I have to ask what kind of #'s are you folks getting for use in Tactical, ala AP's and Mana?

I have a generic SoV and he has, by Level 4-5 12-16 Mana and 4 moves (max) How is anyone getting say 8 (was an example given) X2 mana per Magic shots a turn?

Has anyone Solo'd the Spiders of the Forge before 175 turns in?

As to the AP's and their usage, I preferred .91 over .92. If one can move, and they eat up 2 AP's, then being able to move only once actually prevents other Moves that would use up more AP's.

Kiting cannot be done now but I get more AP's to use Offensively vs using a 50-50 split of move and shoot. It seems counter intuitive really.

 

Reply #263 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 256

Quoting Koalab, reply 255
Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.
 

I agree.... How would armor stop a lightning bolt or a fireball
 

Um...

 

Really?  You don't think a plate of steel could lessen the effect of a fire ball?

 

Oh, it's a MAGIC fireball though... well just add that armor penetrating flag to it then.

 

Just how thick is the plate? If it's thin - it probably would melt, or at the very least you'd still get burns - not from the fireball but from the heat the armor would generate. If you had a piece of metal on your arm and I heated the metal - you'd still feel the flame...not directly but via the heat of the metal.

Lightning? Metal protects against lightning? Being grounded protects against lightning (give the electricity a path to the ground instead of through you) - but I would think if someone was wearing plate armor and got struck by lightning, they'd not be "protected" any more than a golfer getting struck on the club is protected from the lightning.

Reply #264 Top

Quoting Spitz, reply 254

Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

 

I agree. I'm not sure how much Brad & co want to complicate equipment, but it would be nice to see at least a difference between armor and magical resistance. I'd prefer a system kind of like Ultima Online, where armor has a physical resistance, and then a certain resistance to any given type of magic. If that's too complicated for elemental though, it'd be nice to see a difference between at least physical and magical damage.

Reply #265 Top

Quoting VR_IronMana, reply 263



Lightning? Metal protects against lightning? Being grounded protects against lightning (give the electricity a path to the ground instead of through you) - but I would think if someone was wearing plate armor and got struck by lightning, they'd not be "protected" any more than a golfer getting struck on the club is protected from the lightning.

 

It's that you're inside a conductive shell.  Because all those electrons have the same charge, they want to be as far away from each other as possible, so the vast majority of the current flows down the outside of the shell. It's the same thing that protects you from lightning strikes if you're sitting inside a car.

Now granted, that shell is up against your skin and I think it's likely to get pretty hot with all that amperage flowing though it, and plate is usually worn over flammable padding, so I think you're still going to have some problems with superficial burns, but you're less likely to have significant flow through your core stopping your heart.

Reply #266 Top

Quoting Spitz, reply 254



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 249


In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.


I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

Resistance to elements/dmg types > magical resistance. ;) All damage types should have the corresponding resistance type. -> This would be the perfect system.

Reply #267 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 266

Quoting Spitz, reply 254


Quoting Frogboy,
reply 249


In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.


I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.


Resistance to elements/dmg types > magical resistance. All damage types should have the corresponding resistance type. -> This would be the perfect system.

 

I agree with this completely.

Reply #268 Top

Quoting Peace, reply 252

Quoting Frogboy, reply 249The action point system is set up so that those with a high combat speed can basically go to down on others.

We do not want to hook this up to endurance (strategic map movement) because the two aren't really related.

The idea is that someone with a very high combat speed can do a lot of harm in a single tactical turn.

But high combat speed is useless without attack power. You can be really fast and not be able to get through the other guy's armor. 

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.


This post could be understood as the hit and run tactic is legal. So you should be able to move, kill a unit, move to another unit and kill it if you have a high enough combat speed

Yep. Legit and expected. Of course, the other unit gets to retaliate.

Reply #269 Top

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 264

Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

 

I agree. I'm not sure how much Brad & co want to complicate equipment, but it would be nice to see at least a difference between armor and magical resistance. I'd prefer a system kind of like Ultima Online, where armor has a physical resistance, and then a certain resistance to any given type of magic. If that's too complicated for elemental though, it'd be nice to see a difference between at least physical and magical damage.

 

It's in there. Just not hooked up to the UI.  But we have blunt damage, electrical damage, etc. as well as counters for them.

Reply #270 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 269

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 264
Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

 

I agree. I'm not sure how much Brad & co want to complicate equipment, but it would be nice to see at least a difference between armor and magical resistance. I'd prefer a system kind of like Ultima Online, where armor has a physical resistance, and then a certain resistance to any given type of magic. If that's too complicated for elemental though, it'd be nice to see a difference between at least physical and magical damage.

 

It's in there. Just not hooked up to the UI.  But we have blunt damage, electrical damage, etc. as well as counters for them.

 

Awesome! That's what I wanted to hear :grin:

Reply #271 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 268


Yep. Legit and expected. Of course, the other unit gets to retaliate.

Provided that other unit survives }:)

Now all we need is a tactical level teleport spell to prevent too much kiting. I posted one over in the spell request thread, but it looks like a week's worth of posts disappeared from that thread.

Reply #272 Top

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 270



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 269

Quoting SpaghettiMon, reply 264
Quoting Spitz, reply 254
Quoting Frogboy, reply 249

In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.

I would eventually love to have magic mitigated by magical resistance, rather than mundane armor.

 

I agree. I'm not sure how much Brad & co want to complicate equipment, but it would be nice to see at least a difference between armor and magical resistance. I'd prefer a system kind of like Ultima Online, where armor has a physical resistance, and then a certain resistance to any given type of magic. If that's too complicated for elemental though, it'd be nice to see a difference between at least physical and magical damage.

 

It's in there. Just not hooked up to the UI.  But we have blunt damage, electrical damage, etc. as well as counters for them.


 

Awesome! That's what I wanted to hear

Yep, but we have a weird system in Elemental.  Check out Froggie's post about it. [PS. I would prefer to have a "normal" dmg/resistance system, but ah well. Perhaps this system will work as well.]

Reply #273 Top

In terms of combat actions, frankly, I'd like to see a more direct pull from MoM for Tactical Combat.

 

Melee Attack costs 1/2 of all your move points. (optional "Swift" ability which makes attacks cost 1/3)

 

Ranged Attacks cost 1/2 your move and can only be made once per turn.

 

Spells may be cast once per turn per caster, and cost 1/2 your move.

 

Melee Counter Attacks use 1 "Action" per counter attack made.Actions are pulled from those not spent the previous turn, and then from upcoming actions on the units next turn. (not actually in MoM, but would work nice here)

Reply #274 Top

If we are taking MoM into account, one of the most important parts were the limiting of arrow-shots / range-ammo which should get into this game as well (magic has already limitation) :-)