How far back into acient history do we have to go before some local would shout out "rip off!"?

I'm glad for this thread for another reason now. It's got me playing NWN2 again! And I'm going to see if I can track down Arcanum and get it to run. Thanks guys!

Maybe I'll give Bloodlines a chance after that but I dunno... the current Vampire Craze has me pretty disgusted with the creatures.

The Vampires in The World of Darkness (the Universe the game is set in) aren't your solar powered disco ball Vampires of today, or the romantic version either.  They're mostly blood thirsty killers will stylish wardrobes.  And clevage.  Lots of clevage.

The problem here is unlike a book, which can withstand the test of time, a video game cannot and people in this day and age cannot understand Baldur's Gate the way you do because the game is virtually archaic. While the game was top of the line for its time, you cannot put BG 2 up to a modern game for a modern gamer and try to explain why BG is better. The game is simply too old. Its because of this I cannot agree with you BG is better than Mass Effect. Its not a fair comparison.

Its hard to say BG is better than Mass Effect or Goldeneye is better than Modern Warfare. Its mixing apples and oranges. Time is very relevant when it comes to discussing video games.

People who appreciate the medium can certainly understand the older games and appreciate video games that are old. It's the drive by gamers with short attention spans and no appreciation for the medium who can't do these things. Once again, movies have a similiar issue and what do you know, a lot of the general population can't appreciate the classics, the ones that play in black and white or dull/washed out classics either. Art isn't about "better" either, so if that it the approach you are taking, it's no wonder you're having problems appreciating the older games.

I'm the biggest Bioware fanboy ever. I only became one post KOTOR. I have tried to play the Baldur's Gate. I can't. The game is tool old. I can appreciate it for its time period, but to play it now is next to impossible. Stop insulting me Nesrie, its getting annoying. I'm trying to keep this troll free.

Heh, you are fanboi by your own admission and then get pissed off when someone calls you a fanboi. Whatever. I didn't address you specifically in that post at all actually. If you see yourself in what I said, that's on you, not me.

You specifically refer to me in the above post. Read it yourself.

No see here is the difference. I referred to what you said, and the approach you were taking. The only actual so-called insult I have given you is the term fanboi, which you gave yourself, and telling you to STFU about Obisidan.

I also question your use of the word "better". I suppose you think you can pick which art piece if better right, the Mona Lisa, the Notre Dame Cathedral or maybe the Guernica. I also said people can appreciate the medium for what it is, old or not, just like people can appreciate old black and white and sometimes silent movies in a world of vibrant color and 3D effects. I also mentioned drive by gamers, which I actually didn't call you so much as label a group that can't appreciate the medium, whether you are part of it or not.

So is this the part where you call me an asshole and a troll or you still puffing up your chest for some new colorful metaphors?

Ive been gaming since the 80s, but i havent tried Baldurs Gate till like 3 months ago.

Graphics werent that bad. Im a huge 2d fan. but interface killed it for me. No intelligent clicking. Must click many times and many places. Imagine Warcraft 1, you cant drag a box and you cant left or right click to attack.

I really enjoyed Temple of Elemental Evil. Beautiful design. But again horrible interface compared to modern games.

But i can understand fans that there hasnt been a RPG out there that delivered such great characters or freedom of choice since BG2.

Yes, the BG games had a top story, but they are bad games in my opinion. The game mechanics behind it were bad in P&P games, and got worse in computer games. I just thougt they suck. Big.

I suffered through BG I cause the story was great, i hated myself through Planescape, cause the story was even better. When BG2 came around i couldnt take it no more.

But thats what i am saying again and again. The stories where good to great, but a good story alone doesnt make a good game.

I guess we just disagree on what makes a good game.

Mechanics? Are you talking about the horrid DnD raw math system which you plonk your dice numbers into?

I have a friend who loves stuff like Diablo/WoW but the DnD maths just confuse him. (Recive a +2 initiative bonus to attack is not very intuative, + 1% hit rating is very easy to understand). Tp him its like theres a ceremonial magician at work trying to make the game as unplayable as possible.

Other than that the game itself was very good with some challanging tactical battles. The story was also good but I really only care if the experince of the game was fun and interesting.

In fact, +x% hit chance can be more confusing. for example: your chance to hit is 80% and you recieve a bonus of +20%.

is you total hit chance 100%(80+20) or 96%(80*1.20) or 84% (1-20*0.8)?

Only a dumbass would use anything but the first when useing direct percentages (this is ment as an insult to a lot of badly designed MMOs of the past). Thats used when it makes sense "This spell gives you +20% critical chance". Gear should be using an abstraction otherwise you run into problems of infaltion reaching the cap (100) and little room for progression.

The point is for a player this is simple shizzel to understand "20% is 20%" and "65 rating is better than 35".

If a player has to understand your maths before they can understand what gear is better YOU FAILED AS A GAME DEVELOPER!

lol, thats one of the very good things about the very good things coming in Cataclysm. Although armour peneration is probably always going to be annoying.

Since Polynomial seems to have started posting again, I just wanted to post this...

I had to bump in when someone confused NWN2 for Bioware. Again.

And Nesrie, the method for appreciating physical art is different from video games. Same thing with movies. Citizen Kane is still an advance movie in terms of cinematography to this day. Playing video games changes drastically when you're talking about a 10 year old game. Its next to impossible to be "wow"ed by Baldur's Gate today if you never played it with its extremely advanced camera system and engrossing text based conversations.

Congratulations, you sound like Ebert except your gamer. If you can't appreciate the medium for what it is, that is your loss but that limitation isn't enforced on everyone else. A lot of people go to the movies to be entertained and that's it, no appreciation for anything behind it or leading up to it. If that is your stance as a gamer, fine. That doesn't mean everyone around you can't appreciate what was.

Bioware - never been treated better by any other game company out there, including the gracious host of these forums. Either they have the money or an extreme dedication, but they've gone the extra mile when I needed it.

everything is "Art" for a given value of "Art".  it all boils down to your personal opinion on the topic/piece/etc.

Sorry, what?  Do you really think age is any more relevant to video games than it is to books or paintings or other 'classics'? 

I have a large group of friends who swear by the Ultima series as the gold standard of RPGs.  You can tell them how their opinion doesn't matter I suppose, but it probably won't do you much good.  I have friends who feel the same way about Street Fighter 2 wrt fighting games.

As for me, most anything can burn if it was made before 2000.  Except people.  I like people.

(And now, for me to go back to the asylum.)

Why anything before 2000 can burn?

Because I have so much to do and see that was made in this decade I could spend my entire life looking and not see it all.  Why bother going backwards?

Everything made today is pretty much an abstraction of something from the past so in order to fully apperciate what is today, you must have as much sex as possible. At least I think that was the translation of the ancient proverb... The last bit was a bit faded...

You are not alone. Bioware has pretty much stuck to the same formula since KotoR. Making their games boring and too predictable. Definitely overrated but sadly not many other big name developer making rpgs.