"Punishing the unemployed"

I've written about the tendency of the derailed right to bash unemployed folks here and here. Truthfully, I still find the idea totally inexplicable. Politically it just doesn't seem right. For giggles I put this together:

Top X states for unemployment, red/blue coding of the rate based on '08's presidential election results. Obviously, this is a 'broad' look and it's not geared for detail digging, but rather was something I kicked together to see if there was a meaningful pattern there.

The two most striking things to me:

1. We know that Nevada is a highly contested race to bounce Harry Reid. Nevada also has the highest unemployment rate in the union.

2. Florida, Ohio, NC, and Indiana all broke blue in 08, but not by much---less than 5% or so. Ohio and Florida are currently toss ups (aren't they always). Indiana leans red at this point.

Doesn't it just seem counterintuitive that, where you have ---no doubt---economic induced misery to actually pound the pulpit to make what is an already very difficult situation even worse. Angle/Hatch's loud and stupid mouths aside, isn't it just a queer thing to do? It's an election year for christ's sake.

One of the things that GOP has used really effectively over the last 10 (well, more than 10, and it's not just the GOP who's doing it--but I won't go into it) are these wedge issues. Issues with invisible demons - issues that solidify an 'us' and highlight a 'them'. This doesn't even seem to have that stink to it: no doubt every single person in the states knows somebody who lost a job or a house. Pile on the unemployed folks? No voter is that much of an animal.

So I'm still at a loss on an explanation for this. It's not great policy, it doesn't serve any discernible political purpose....and maybe that can be explained:

Krugman has a thought:

But that was then. Today, American workers face the worst job market since the Great Depression, with five job seekers for every job opening, with the average spell of unemployment now at 35 weeks. Yet the Senate went home for the holiday weekend without extending benefits. How was that possible?

The answer is that we’re facing a coalition of the heartless, the clueless and the confused. Nothing can be done about the first group, and probably not much about the second. But maybe it’s possible to clear up some of the confusion.

And the money shot:

So, is there any chance that these arguments will get through? Not, I fear, to Republicans: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something,” said Upton Sinclair, “when his salary” — or, in this case, his hope of retaking Congress — “depends upon his not understanding it.” But there are also centrist Democrats who have bought into the arguments against helping the unemployed. It’s up to them to step back, realize that they have been misled — and do the right thing by passing extended benefits.

In Krugman's view maybe the point is to inflict more misery. Maybe that misery isn't so useful now, but has the potential to be the greatest ally of the GOP when they take on Obama in '12. I don't necessarily buy it - truthfully a guy who says this - is somebody you should always be cautious of. But by far, the most plausible explanation for the anti-unemployed bend the gop is on right now.

9,122 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top

Anti-unemployed is such a DNC talking point.

Conservatives are not "anti-unemployed", but there has to be a limit somewhere.  Last I looked, people were getting unemployment benefits for up to two years at least in some parts of the States.  Two years?

When does it stop becoming unemployment and begin being welfare? 

Reply #2 Top

One person lumped Unemployment with Welfare.  And now it is a right wing issue.  So goes the truth.  The first casualty in the panic to maintain a proletariat of the enlightened.  Or for the less read, the democrats.

Reply #3 Top

ID:  fine and dandy.  But why choose to draw the line now during the worst economic crisis in modern history?

Out of curiosity, when you've got one long sitting gop senator thinking that the unemployed folks are drug addicts and another possibly soon to be gop gal saying that the unemployed are lazy/entitled, and an entire party line voting against the extention of benefits:  if that's not an anti-unemployed sentiment, what do you call it? 

 

DG:  Apparently at least 2.  Sharon Angle and ID just did it now.  Hatch just implied that there all a bunch of degenerates. 

 

Maybe Krugman is more on than I thought: 

By the heartless, I mean Republicans who have made the cynical calculation that blocking anything President Obama tries to do — including, or perhaps especially, anything that might alleviate the nation’s economic pain — improves their chances in the midterm elections. Don’t pretend to be shocked: you know they’re out there, and make up a large share of the G.O.P. caucus.

 

I mean really, even if you're going to pull this shit under the guise of cutting government spending, why not just cut actual government spending where nobody cares?  Why pick human targets? 

 

It just doesn't politically make sense.  At all. 

Reply #4 Top

I should add:

As much as both of you seem hell bent on making this a Dem vs. Us (HAHA I made a pun!) issue, it really isn't. 

I mean, obviously, the gop could have manned up and just voted for the unemployment extension and not a single person would have gotten their dander up.  The entirety of this issue was manufactured by the republicans.

 

I know.  I know.  "That there is lib-ruhl talk".  But what are you going to say: "Somebody has to stand up to the democrats so that they don't hand out free money to the people hardest hit the lack of jobs"?  Seriously? Going to bat with that?

Again, if you really buy into that, I'll entertain it for the time being.  But is that really a politically practical move at the moment? 

Reply #5 Top

Out of curiosity, when you've got one long sitting gop senator thinking that the unemployed folks are drug addicts and another possibly soon to be gop gal saying that the unemployed are lazy/entitled, and an entire party line voting against the extention of benefits:  if that's not an anti-unemployed sentiment, what do you call it?
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It doesn't have to be called anything.  The fact is the longer someone is on government assistance the more dependent they become.  

As I said, where does it end?  Another year, then comes another extension, and then again, and again, and again.  

Reply #6 Top

DG: Apparently at least 2. Sharon Angle and ID just did it now. Hatch just implied that there all a bunch of degenerates.
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I should have added "leader", but thought that was understood from the article itself.

Maybe Krugman is more on than I thought:
End of quote

The problem is the Obama government IS MAKING it welfare.  Unemployment insurance, contrary to Krugman and Pelosi, is not a lifetime benefit.  Do you know how long 99 weeks are?  The fund was set up as a short term transition.  The Republicans (we will exclude un-elected ones for the moment) are saying fine, we can extend it - show us the money!  Krugman says that is heartless.  Well, what do you call someone who donates a $1,000,000 to a charity that does not have it?  regardless of the nobility of the charity, saying you are going to give money you do not have falls into one of 2 categories.

1. Fraud.  You just defrauded the charity

2. Theft.  The clown has to steal it to get it.

Krugman is an idiot.  But then, like the philanthropist that donates money he does not have, they are a dime a dozen.

Reply #7 Top

I mean, obviously, the gop could have manned up and just voted for the unemployment extension and not a single person would have gotten their dander up. The entirety of this issue was manufactured by the republicans.
End of quote

Sure, and while you are at it, go ahead and buy the mercedes you cannot afford.  Again. DEMOCRATS and Republicans voted (and Obama screamed he was going to) PAY AS YOU GO.  Apparently the only ones with any integrity are the republicans (not in all cases, but in this one).

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Island, reply 5

As I said, where does it end?  Another year, then comes another extension, and then again, and again, and again.  
End of Island's quote

It ends when all people are "employed" the way Pelosi thinks they are - receiving government handouts only.

Reply #9 Top

I love how it's called extensions when it's obvious they had this planned all along as another "here's a 20% discount with every purchase" sales pitch to get people to like Obama and ignore the failures.

This is no longer unemployment, it's welfare. I should know, my parents were on welfare when i was young. Hell, I was the family interpreter for the welfare office. I have had unemployment and let me tell you while it's great to have a back up plan such as this even I know this can not last forever and it has to end some time.

Extensions will only push back a bit the inevitable truth that this Administration failed to accomplish that which they said would be fixed by the stimulus bill. I have nothing against those who are unemployed but seeing as this situation may not start to fix itself and jobs will not start to truly be created for another year or 2, will we be giving unemployment till this happens? Will we extend unemployment for 4, maybe 5 years? As ID asked, when will this end? Where is the limit?

This is not about hurting the unemployed, it's about facing the facts that we can not just keep giving money away during a time when the economy is screwed. By the same token that this is a bad time to go against the extension due to the economy, you ignore the fact that this is a bad time to be overspending due to the economy since overspending is what got us here in the first place.

Makes me wonder just how temping those jobs only illegals will do are these days compared to unemployment.  Free money vs working under the sun for close to minimum wage. Guess it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

Reply #10 Top

If I gonna bust my balls to earn a check so that someone else can get paid while staying home for 4 or 5 years with the excuse that there are no jobs (BTW, 8 people have been hired where I work it the last few months and at my wifes job they hire almost on a weekly bases, just an example), then I want to stay home too. After all, I got a 3rd child on the way, and I don't even qualify for welfare, foodstamps of medicaid even though I only make about $11 an hour and my wife makes about $10.

Reply #11 Top

Makes me wonder just how temping those jobs only illegals will do are these days compared to unemployment. Free money vs working under the sun for close to minimum wage. Guess it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
End of quote

It does not have to be minimum wage either.  But I will tell you that I have been unemployed twice in my career.  And both times I did take a job paying less.  For those unwilling to do so, yea, it can take years.  The first time, I actually switched careers, calling upon skills that were a part of my previous position, but I got a job in 4 months.  The second time, while I was unofficially out of work for only 2 months, I actually knew it was coming for 3 months prior to that.  Fortunately I did not have to switch careers then.

But in both cases, I did take a pay cut.  The first time it was 20%, the second it was much smaller.  You do not need to be unemployed for 2 years.  That just means you have set your expectations too high - or are enjoying not working.  BTW:  The first time was during the "worst recession since the great depression!" Version 1 (or was it 2?  I do not recall if that line was used in 1980).

Reply #12 Top

I have been unemployed before, when I moved from Miami to Puerto Rico about 6 or 7 years ago. My brother fired me (personal problems back then) but gave me unemployment. Used it for about 6 months as jobs in Puerto Rico in my small town was hard to come by, but thanks to my sister I eventually found a decent part time.

Reply #13 Top

As I said, where does it end? Another year, then comes another extension, and then again, and again, and again.
End of quote

It 'ends' when it becomes a reasonable proposition for somebody to acquire gainful employment---at least them having a fighting chance.  Despite slight gains, there still does not appear to be enough jobs. If you want to say that the economy is doing ok and there's plenty of jobs available, I guess that's ok. 

I don't think there's a single rubric right now that would indicate that things are 'ok'.  I don't even think there's anything that's really even 'pointing up'. 



The fact is the longer someone is on government assistance the more dependent they become.
End of quote

Really?  I mean, really?  300, 400 bucks a week is convincing people to sit at home? 



This is no longer unemployment, it's welfare.
End of quote

Now that's just fucking appalling. 



This is not about hurting the unemployed, it's about facing the facts that we can not just keep giving money away during a time when the economy is screwed.
End of quote

Well yes.  Actually you can.  And on balance, it's not that much money as compared to the pointless bailouts in Detroit and the cash dollars expended to 'save' a bunch of banks. And on balance, you'd much rather have consumers with even a few dollars to pump into a failing retail economy anyway. 

 

Makes me wonder just how temping those jobs only illegals will do are these days compared to unemployment. Free money vs working under the sun for close to minimum wage. Guess it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
End of quote

Yeah because that's a practical dilemma. 

 

 

Reply #14 Top

Really?  I mean, really?  300, 400 bucks a week is convincing people to sit at home?
End of quote

You have never been out in the real world have you?  People will stay home for much less than that.

 

Now that's just fucking appalling.

End of quote

It's reality.  As Guy said, people have 99 weeks of unemployment....ALMOST TWO YEARS!  There has to be an end somewhere.

 

Reply #15 Top

It 'ends' when it becomes a reasonable proposition for somebody to acquire gainful employment-
End of quote

No.  All you have to do is look at welfare.  You are trying to be subjective in an objective law.  The rules are clear.  It never ends unless you adhere to the rules, and you are telling them to just chuck them out the door.

Really? I mean, really? 300, 400 bucks a week is convincing people to sit at home?
End of quote

I have no hard data to back up the statement that you replied to (nor do I care to google them).  However, the press is doing the work of the OP in this case giving us numerous stories of exactly what he states.  Anecdotal - true.  But in lieu of any quantifiable data (none presented so far), the statement stands as true.

Now that's just fucking appalling.
End of quote

No, but it goes to a basic difference between us.  Unemployment is meant to help people find new jobs, not take a "daddy break" or extended vacation.  Those using it for such are simply on welfare.  Your job is to prove otherwise.

Well yes. Actually you can. And on balance, it's not that much money as compared to the pointless bailouts in Detroit and the cash dollars expended to 'save' a bunch of banks. And on balance, you'd much rather have consumers with even a few dollars to pump into a failing retail economy anyway.
End of quote

No you cannot.  Just take it to its logical conclusion.  How is the government going to support 300 million on unemployment?  Weimar Germany (and Argentina and Chile) have shown us that just printing money is no solution.  Or are you like the current administration that believes this is a new economy where the rules of economics no longer apply?

 

Reply #16 Top

Dan, answer this. Do you feel everyone should get an extension or should they exclude "hicks and teabaggers" (your words I believe)?

Reply #17 Top

ID:  fine and dandy.  But why choose to draw the line now during the worst economic crisis in modern history?

End of quote

Because if we don't, the economic crisis will continue.

 

Reply #18 Top

Really? I mean, really? 300, 400 bucks a week is convincing people to sit at home?
End of quote

What planet you live on? I have family who have made living on welfare a full time job, ironically. I make just over $400 a week after taxes, but I rather work than stay home doing little if anything. But you seem to be under the impression that people who are on welfare or unemployment are not finding ways to get paid "under the table". You'd be amazed how many people who get unemployment or welfare actually have part time jobs that are under the table. I should know as I did this once before when I was working for my uncle. Since I was just working 2 or 3 hours for about $60 a week he didn't want to put me as employed and I have an aunt that worked at bars while getting welfare and social security. She was never broke.

Now that's just fucking appalling.
End of quote

It's called reality, deal with it. There's a difference between the people who read the stories and those who experience it.

Well yes. Actually you can. And on balance, it's not that much money as compared to the pointless bailouts in Detroit and the cash dollars expended to 'save' a bunch of banks. And on balance, you'd much rather have consumers with even a few dollars to pump into a failing retail economy anyway.
End of quote

It's kinda ironic you say this considering it was overspending that got us here in the first place and your solution to the problem that cause millions to lose their jobs is to continue to spend money we don't have, not necessarily on job creation (I don't care what Pelosi says) but on the people who are unemployed. What's the point of college? What's the point of education for that matter? Why bother learning to become workers in the future if the Gov't will give you money if you don't work anyways, be it thru unemployment or welfare?

Yeah because that's a practical dilemma.
End of quote

Practical dilemma? I bet if all these jobs illegals do would all of a sudden open up, people would still keep getting unemployment. Why? Because they would rather get free money than work, especially if the free money was the same or more than the job they would get and with this new healthcare bill, there is no worry about not having insurance, supposedly.

Reply #19 Top

@DG/ID: 

I think your major confusion here stems from this: 

Unemployment is not welfare.  I know that the Orin Hatch comments and the Sharon Angle comments make you believe that all them there unemployeds are just sitting around collecting their big fat government cheese check, but it just isn't the case.  There are many, many, people in that group who can't (and won't) get by on 300 bucks a week.  Seriously:  300 dollars might cover our cell phone/internet bill.  That's about it. 

I get it.  Welfare bad.  Chronic welfare worse, generational welfare awful.  All societal issues.  But unemployment checks in a time where the unemployment rate is at 9 and a half points:  it's just a little novacane for the root canal...it's enough to help ease the pain, but sure isn't going to knock you out.  

 

Incidentally:

No you cannot.  Just take it to its logical conclusion.  How is the government going to support 300 million on unemployment?  Weimar Germany (and Argentina and Chile) have shown us that just printing money is no solution.  Or are you like the current administration that believes this is a new economy where the rules of economics no longer apply?

 

YEAH YEAH I'M JUST LIKE THAT OBAMA!  Really man.  This isn't Weirmar Germany. We're sure as shit not Argentina and Chille.  I don't even think they wear shoes there.   This is a vastly different economy from what it was 30 years ago.  Now, that's not to say that I believe that the obama ARRA mechanism was executed correctly or that TARP was a good idea.  But, that is to say that we can't keep going off of this outdated hardline playbook of how to deal with this. 

And, again, it has absolutely nothing to do with why we can't help out some unemployed folks. 

 

 

Because if we don't, the economic crisis will continue.
End of quote
 

Leauki?   How so?  Specifically, how does a little shot in the arm cause the crisis to continue.  You can't give a FIT break to people who aren't paying. 

 

ut you seem to be under the impression that people who are on welfare or unemployment are not finding ways to get paid "under the table". You'd be amazed how many people who get unemployment or welfare actually have part time jobs that are under the table. I should know as I did this once before when I was working for my uncle
End of quote

More confusion between unemployment and welfare.  Who did that to you? 

 

What's the point of college? What's the point of education for that matter? Why bother learning to become workers in the future if the Gov't will give you money if you don't work anyways, be it thru unemployment or welfare?
End of quote

Well.  I went to college.  I can tell you pretty conclusively that 400 dollars a week won't even be enough cause for me to drink coffee. It certainly doesn't support my life style or that of my family.  Ditto for most of the college grads I know. And those that are on unemployment.....

 

Practical dilemma? I bet if all these jobs illegals do would all of a sudden open up, people would still keep getting unemployment.
End of quote

Really, that's what this is about?  You're so concerned with the illegal immigrants that you want to fuck otherwise hard working Americans for being caught up in the worst economic crisis in recent history? 

 

 

Reply #20 Top

Leauki?   How so?

End of quote

A working economy consists of people being productive and keeping the wealth they generate (hence they have a reason to be productive).

Social welfare is a system designed to pay people for not being productive. It causes economic crises. This is why a well-functioning socialist system generates about as much wealth as a capitalist system in deep recession.

I do think that the government can help bringing the economy out of a recession. But social welfare is not a method to do it. I think the government should use the opportunity of available labour and invest in the infrastructure, build roads and railways, that sort of thing.

 

Reply #21 Top

Unemployment is not welfare. I know that the Orin Hatch comments and the Sharon Angle comments make you believe that all them there unemployeds are just sitting around collecting their big fat government cheese check, but it just isn't the case. There are many, many, people in that group who can't (and won't) get by on 300 bucks a week. Seriously: 300 dollars might cover our cell phone/internet bill. That's about it.
End of quote

No, you miss the point. Unemployment is not welfare.  Unemployment extensions ARE Welfare.  The rules are set up so that there is a safety net, and the money is calculated for that net.  And you pay (through Payroll taxes).  BUT, extending it comes from the same money pot as welfare.  Unemployment is earned.  Extensions are not.  And if you have a 1200 cell phone bill, you need to get a new plan!

This isn't Weirmar Germany.
End of quote

Apples are oranges again, right?  Sorry, but you do not have to commit every error to learn from them.  Smart people learn not only from their own errors, but that of others as well.  It is not Weimar Germany - YET.  There is no reason it cannot be just like them IF WE MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES.

 

Reply #22 Top

More confusion between unemployment and welfare. Who did that to you?
End of quote

If this is the best you can respond then I see no point in continuing the "debate".

Well. I went to college. I can tell you pretty conclusively that 400 dollars a week won't even be enough cause for me to drink coffee. It certainly doesn't support my life style or that of my family. Ditto for most of the college grads I know. And those that are on unemployment.....
End of quote

I didn't finish college, my own stupid choice. But just so you know, I have co-workers who recently started working here with me with degree's that make my job look like a fast food job. Yet, here they are. $400 is not enough for a family, but then my wife does work too and she brings in pretty much the same so we are doing semi decent.

Really, that's what this is about? You're so concerned with the illegal immigrants that you want to fuck otherwise hard working Americans for being caught up in the worst economic crisis in recent history?
End of quote

That I want to fuck hard working Americans? Now who's confused. i thought we were talking about the unemployed? How the "fuck" do I want to "fuck" employed people when we are talking about unemployment? Looks like you are more confused than Biden.

 

Reply #23 Top

There are many, many, people in that group who can't (and won't) get by on 300 bucks a week.  Seriously:  300 dollars might cover our cell phone/internet bill.  That's about it. 

End of quote

Wow.

Neither cell phone nor Internet are strictly needed for a decent life. And 1200 bucks for cell phone and Internet access is beyond what I can even imagine paying.

And I waste _a lot_ of money on cell phone bills and Internet access!

(Highest cell phone bill was around 400 euros. Roaming in Israel.)

 

Reply #24 Top

(Highest cell phone bill was around 400 euros. Roaming in Israel.)
End of quote

Always keep your cell phone on a leash - so it does not roam. ;)

Reply #25 Top

Always keep your cell phone on a leash - so it does not roam.

End of quote

2000 years ago the Italians were roaming the Mediterranean. The result was called the Roamin' Empire.