Spellbooks and Shards; working them together

I write this because I'd like to see shards and spellbooks work better together, and I've looked around for the person who had this idea first, but can't seem to find the thread again.  I also add in ideas from Matreus and Hound here, who had some really good, intelligent ideas for organizing spells in a way that made you want to collect shards, but still made the game playable if you didn't get any shards.

The core idea was to separate spellbooks from shards.  That is, no more book of fire, or earth.  Instead, you'd have spellbooks of evocation, or summoning.  I'll present my list in a bit, but you get the idea.  If you have a spellbook of summoning, and then you find a fire shard, you can summon a fire imp (with the proper research into the summoning spellbook).  Invest more in that spellbook, and you get a fire mephit.  Then maybe a fire elemental.  All the way up to a fire giant, if you invest deeply enough.  The idea being that combinations of spellbook plus shards unlock a certain spell type, and then by researching that spell type more and more, it becomes more effective (more damage, more bonuses to enchantments, more healing, etc).

I fiddled around with this a bit, and came up with 10 books, and what' they'd affect:

thaumaturgy changing enemy stats
enchantment change items
evocation direct damage
summoning summons
geomancy map changing (base tiles)
necromancy affecting the dead
divination charming creatures/players
alteration map changing (special tiles)
transmutation city changing spells
abjuration changing stats

So, on sovereign creation, you pick a few spellbooks (or maybe all of them, but at significant penalty).  Each of the books as a base spell set, and then has spells that get unlocked if you control a shard (or two, or three...)  Thaumaturgy may have a spell that drops enemy attack speed by 0.5.  With an earth shard, it may encase them in mud, making it possible to have them miss a turn (because they slipped and fell).

THe thing I can see with this is that you'd want to perhaps go beyond the 4 shards we have now, to include life and death shards (and maybe chaos or order shards, or maybe spirit shards, as was suggested in another thread).

Anyway, I wanted to capture the ideas here, because I'm concerned that thread and that discussion got buried, and I think the idea was good enough from the various sources to gather up and keep in front of the devs for their consideration.

As a side note, "affecting the dead" could be anything from earth ("the grasping hands of the recently deceased claw and grab at all passersby, making the tile on which they died impassible in strategic combat") to fire ("this corpse explodes, doing damage to all within two tiles").  Having a dead body on the tactical field can do more than just cause them to be revived (air or life) or reanimated (water or death).

Winni

30,859 views 54 replies
Reply #1 Top

Very interesting.

 

What do others think of this?

Reply #2 Top

the idea has merit.. as i see it the spells that are effected by shards should have a base none shard spell set (some or one spells not needing shards..

for example:

summoning: summon familiar as no shard required..

combat: arcane bolt no shard . fire, ice,earth etc bolt 1 shard .. then aoe versions of the spell ie fire ball 2 or 3..

just  a quick few suggestions on how it could work..

Reply #3 Top

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that you should go home now, Frogboy.  It's late; the AI will wait.  Enjoy the holiday weekend.  It's a pleasant evening in Michigan; go enjoy it.  :)

Reply #4 Top

Well... this is much more like the Dominions III magic system. And I lurves the Dominions III magic system.

This would do good in forcing variety with the different elements. You could have a "fire" based information gathering spell, which would be cool.

The other thing I'd add is how much I like the idea of special spellbooks that are rare and can only be gotten by going on quests. I think that's a pretty good idea too.

Personally, I like the idea, and I'd add more books with fewer spells each. If you've ever played Linley's Dungeon Crawl, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Reply #5 Top

I was finding it kind of odd that the game is called elemental, yet most spells were not even be tied to them in any way.This would make various parts of the game a lot more consistent with each other.

I support this.

Reply #8 Top

I like the concept of 10 schools of magic.  If you allow sovereigns to start/pick 2-3 books at the beginning, it adds a significant amount of diversity to the game.  The way you play a particular sovereign would drastically change depending on your spell books and the shards you then acquire. 

The idea combines an increased diversity of spell books while maintaining the importance of element shards.  I think it would add a lot to the game. 

Reply #9 Top

it's truly a great idea !

I also think that shard shouldbe somewhat more important and directly affect spells.

what do you think about it Frogboy ? if i get supported by many peoples including stardock's people might it be doable? (since if i'm not mistaken you're 55 hous ahead of schedule for elemental, though i don't know how much time would be needed for  theses changes)

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Very interesting.

 

What do others think of this?

 

very good idea, the only recommendation is the powerful part is the initial book not the shards for the problems expressed in other threads

 

ie assuming the order of spells is:

-fire imp

-fire mephit

-fire elemental

 

the requisites should be

-1 fire shard, 1 book of summoning

-1 fire shard, 2 books of summoning

-1 fire shard 3 books of summoning (or 2 books and final research "master summoner" )

Reply #11 Top

Quoting TS22, reply 8
I like the concept of 10 schools of magic. 

 

i rather have a bit less like 5 6 and the chance to pick 2 or even 3 of the same type to unlock top tier spells(maybe even allowing the chance to research 1 book, dunno)

 

Reply #12 Top

It's important to keep shards and spell knowledge completely separate.

Worst case scenario: you envision a thunderous storm wizard for your Sovereign and customize his look for that, ready to call lightning from the skies... only to find out there are no Air shards anywhere the map.

If shards would be required to learn spells, it would be totally up to the random map generator what kind of a spellcaster your Sovereign would become and customization would be tossed in the bin.

But I do think the locations of the shards should be tied to the geography of the map so you would know where to look. Earth Wizards would be digging in underground caves and Air Wizards would be scouting mountain tops. It would give specialized spellcasters a natural habitat and their starting location should also reflect this.

Anyway, the choice of powers and focus should come first i.e. fire, ice, death etc. or all of them equally... then a secondary choice of being a blaster, summoner or enchanter or a generalist. The first choice is much more important and I would never have that be randomized by the map for my Sovereign.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Hound, reply 12
It's important to keep shards and spell knowledge completely separate.


If shards would be required to learn spells, it would be totally up to the random map generator what kind of a spellcaster your Sovereign would become and customization would be tossed in the bin.


yeah you are right but the point is more what kind of mage you are

once you decide to be a summoner what difference does it make to summon a air elemental or a fire elemental?

 

anyway i agree with your points but then there are many ways to make shards just a boost

 

Reply #14 Top

If I create a fiery Sovereign with burning red hair I don't want to end up summoning Air elementals instead of Fire elementals.

The choice of summoning/blasting/enchanting is secondary to the choice of elements. The Elements and Life/Death give the Sovereigns much more character and should never be randomized.

Reply #15 Top

I think this is a fantastic idea.

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Hound, reply 14
If I create a fiery Sovereign with burning red hair I don't want to end up summoning Air elementals instead of Fire elementals.

The choice of summoning/blasting/enchanting is secondary to the choice of elements. The Elements and Life/Death give the Sovereigns much more character and should never be randomized.

 

the problem is that the actual system is too much different

 

i doubt stardock will change completely the magics even if i agree that the gameplay shoudl based on choices not on rng

Reply #17 Top

You know...  the title of the game is Elemental: War of Magic.

 

So, what if instead of choosing 'spell books' at Sovereign creation, we chose 'Elements'?  Lets even go with multiple picks.

I'll keep it simple - we can purchase a total of 3 'Elemental picks'.  The first choice is a 'Primary', and the next two are 'Supplementary'.  Our choices are simple: Earth, Air, Fire, Water.  So, if I want to be an all-out Fire mage, I pick Fire x3.  If I want to be a generalist, I pick Fire, Air, Earth (Water being ineligible, as it's the opposite of my Primary).  Or I could pick Fire, Fire, Air.

Life & Ruin would be Kingdom/Empire based magics.

All spellbooks would be available through research, not chosen at Sovereign creation.

 

Now, what will this do?  Simple - spell modifiers.  If I research the Book of Summoning, I could summon a Familiar (Life) or Homunculus (Ruin) minion.  If I am a Fire primary mage, I get a Fire Imp.  If I chose Fire x2, I could get a Fire Mephit, or Fire x3, a Fire Elemental.  Mixed supplementary elements could give other bonuses, such as movement modifiers, defense or offense bonuses/penalties based on terrain, or supplemental damage or attack types.  Say, a Fire/Air minion might have a ranged attack.

 

Shards... hrm.   I'm not sure, and just got a call to go help a friend move some stuff, so I'll leave the bare bones here.

Reply #18 Top

The current Sovereign creation does allow you to choose your elements. It just doesn't allow you to specialize in them.

What it needs is a more MoM like approach where you can freely choose your focus on the elements and life or death. And hopefully arcane type of magic with mind spells and other magic that does not fit under elemental/life/death.

Then, as a secondary choice, you should be able to select a type of magic to specialize in, i.e. summoning, blasting or enchanting. Or not to specialize and pursue all three equally.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Spicy, reply 17

 

So, what if instead of choosing 'spell books' at Sovereign creation, we chose 'Elements'?  Lets even go with multiple picks.

I'll keep it simple - we can purchase a total of 3 'Elemental picks'.  The first choice is a 'Primary', and the next two are 'Supplementary'.  Our choices are simple: Earth, Air, Fire, Water.  So, if I want to be an all-out Fire mage, I pick Fire x3.  If I want to be a generalist, I pick Fire, Air, Earth (Water being ineligible, as it's the opposite of my Primary).  Or I could pick Fire, Fire, Air.

Life & Ruin would be Kingdom/Empire based magics.

All spellbooks would be available through research, not chosen at Sovereign creation.

 

Now, what will this do?  Simple - spell modifiers.  If I research the Book of Summoning, I could summon a Familiar (Life) or Homunculus (Ruin) minion.  If I am a Fire primary mage, I get a Fire Imp.  If I chose Fire x2, I could get a Fire Mephit, or Fire x3, a Fire Elemental.  Mixed supplementary elements could give other bonuses, such as movement modifiers, defense or offense bonuses/penalties based on terrain, or supplemental damage or attack types.  Say, a Fire/Air minion might have a ranged attack.

 

yeah i kinda like this

apart from the combination of elements, imo too complicated to script and too long to create every combination of elements

 

i would just stay at fire imp/elemental

Reply #20 Top

Less luck dependency in your starting area, more adaptation to your environment.  Sounds good to me.  A few too many books in my opinion, but I don't really like the book system either.  It feels inferior to the system used in Master of Magic, where you racked up a number of levels towards your desired spheres of power, and then gained strength in them accordingly.

 

A hybrid of the OP with a more refined system for selecting initial proclivities would be nice.  I might prefer strengthening spells with shards and unlocking them with research to the reverse though.  Fairly ambivalent on it though.

Reply #21 Top

Quoting Hound, reply 18
The current Sovereign creation does allow you to choose your elements. It just doesn't allow you to specialize in them.

What it needs is a more MoM like approach where you can freely choose your focus on the elements and life or death. And hopefully arcane type of magic with mind spells and other magic that does not fit under elemental/life/death.

Then, as a secondary choice, you should be able to select a type of magic to specialize in, i.e. summoning, blasting or enchanting. Or not to specialize and pursue all three equally.

 

The biggest problem I have with the current creation option (and even of my idea) of buying elemental spell books is this:  If you want to play a mage type of character, you have to buy stats and spells.  If you want to play a fighter type of character you have to buy stats and .. umm, nothing.  Because you use Warfare research (and random loot) to get weapons.

The mage spends creation points to boost stats that help with spellcasting.  The fighter spends creation points to boost stats that help with fighting.

The mage also has to spend creation points and spell research points to buy weapons (spells), while the fighter does only has to spend tech research points and gold to buy weapons - unless they find it in a loot cache.  It is unbalanced in favor of the fighter.

 

But regardless - currently, yes, you can buy elemental spells.  But my idea was more about researching all spells, and your creation points giving those spells a twist.

Reply #22 Top

Maybe the great solution to lack of shards at the start is a simple trait that specifies a shard at your starting location, like the iron trait.

Reply #23 Top

I like the idea, mainly having shards open access to new spells, and also adding a modifier to related spells.  Fireball is x1.25 with a fire shard or  something.

More shards would open up spells that require the number you have available or you could even dump some essence into a shard to enhance its power to the equivalent of the extra shards you need.  That way if Mr/Mrs Air Wizard is unable to find the 2nd and 3rd Air shards needed to clean up an opposing town with a Lightning Storm, the forfiet of some essence remedies that little quandry.

Having a toggle in the options to start with a shard near (withing 10 squares) might be fun.  The shard could be random based on what books you are starting with. 

 

Reply #24 Top

You know, I have to admit, MOM had a really, really good and elegant spell+node interaction.  You selected a number of spell books at the start, and you could find more by conquering tough nodes (shards) throughout the world.  Could we make the nodes protected, and if you took one, it gave you essence (say one point of essence every 20 turns) and also gave you a spellbook in it's type of magic?

Frogboy, are there copywrite/intellectual property rights surrounding this handing of magic, or are you free to borrow from MOM?

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Winnihym, reply 24
You know, I have to admit, MOM had a really, really good and elegant spell+node interaction.  You selected a number of spell books at the start, and you could find more by conquering tough nodes (shards) throughout the world.  Could we make the nodes protected, and if you took one, it gave you essence (say one point of essence every 20 turns) and also gave you a spellbook in it's type of magic?

Frogboy, are there copywrite/intellectual property rights surrounding this handing of magic, or are you free to borrow from MOM?

 

I agree that MoM had very good spell/node interaction, and how you define your character by spell selection.  However, the single biggest difference between MoM & EWoM is this: in MoM, every sovereign is a caster, trying to build an empire.  In EWoM, you can choose if your sovereign is a caster or a fighter.  There needs to be some mechanic that will not discriminate a players choice to go one route over the other.

Currently, if you want to be a mage, you have to spend creation points on elemental spell books; but if you want to be a fighter, you do not have to spend points on weapon choices.