That quote was in reply to someone telling me I should start my own game company if I don't like the game I bought. As in I should start up a car company if my car seems like its running wrong.

Games aren't gifts handed down from on high - as a customer you have the right to say negative things about them. Games would be a lot better if more people realized that.

Same universe is same universe, not "parallel/alternate universe". Right? *cough*Thalan*cough*

Because I'm going to be quoting that for a long long time...

People, including myself, have a problem with your view because you come across as entitled which you are not. You bought a game. I'll even provide you a refund for said game right now if you have a problem with it.  But your purchase price does not give you the right to be insulting, rude or obnoxious.

And yes, I do think your opinion is "stupid".  I mean seriously, could the book have been given away? Sure. So could the game for that matter.  Talk about trivializing the effort of authors.  You're not interested in the book. That's fine. Don't buy it. Others are.

I have long stated that Elemental will not have elves, orcs, dwarves, etc. are playable default factions. I also said players could make their own races if they like - and it doesn't require MODDING to do it.

In the sand box mode, you can choose and create your own races in the create faction area.  But OUR canon factions are the races of men (natural races) and the races of the Fallen (unnatural). 

It seems the problems started with your opening remark.

Your second remark is hypocritical beyond belief.

Best quit while your...

Yes and sticking with your car analogy...you're judging an unfinished product. The car at this point is still being built, and you're complaining about there not being any tires installed, and the owners manual not being finished yet.

As a customer, I do realize I have a right to say things both good and bad. Game design should not be done by internet committee though. I bought into this game early because Brad's pet projects in the past have been great, and my thoughts so far have been that Stardock is too receptive to community suggestions at this point in the beta.

I don't really want a refund. I like the game thus far. Your attempting to bring this discussion to a level I don't really want it to be on. Im a logical person, and in turn when I say something I don't feel the need to sugar coat. I see myself getting banned soon because of my opinion, but I don't feel particularly in the wrong. Harsh language is just that - language. This is just pixels on the internet. Being insulted by a forum discussion, one that will doubtlessly be closed soon and regress to the bowels of the site, is simply silly.

The book shouldn't have been given away. Obviously. In turn you still are creating a profit from it. I'm not trivializing anything, but the game could certainly survive without the book - arguably the opposite isn't true. Who cares, that's really not the basis of my argument.

If this is really true, then I will shut up for the moment. The only thing is, as Im in the beta, the only customization ive seen that would allow me to create a race of, say, illithids would be to change their skin color. If race customization goes noticeably beyond that, then really I am set. The rest of my fears are just paranoia and oppinion, like if spells are going to be called "Gygax's fateful gaze" in every game because its in a book you wrote, then ill be disapointed.

Its really all about flavor. Thats why I love fantasy, because little things make a big difference.

See, I knew Brad would offer you a refund immediately if your bent out of shape over this. That's the type of guy he is.

Your comment talking about a 600 page book being given away for free, as opposed to the author.. receiving payment for their hard work. 

You clearly, have absolutely no idea what that entails. Writing a book is not a quick buck. And if someone tells you that. They are lying to you.

And if you've paid any attention to anything about him writing that book. It was an incredibly hard and difficult task that surprised even him. Not simply from the volume of words, but from the content of those words, and their juxtaposition that intrigues a readers mental cortex.

So that's not a quick buck. 

And in so far as your not a 14 year old, but a college aged individual. Then you should more than reasonably be able to suss out the issues that the authors in this post have suggested, and the why.

And the Drizzt reference is a hint of familiarity with D&D. But by that token, you should also recognize artistic effort, and that it should be rewarded. Not just demeaned by referring to it as the American way.

And my reference to the form your own company. If this isn't what your looking for, then as I suggested, make your own company and turn out the next great adventure epic TBS game. I'm not being facetious. Go do it, if they aren't doing it "Right" for you.

And really, you can NOT judge a game by the beta aspects in place. You don't know how much is stripped out in sand box or not. It's not even remotely a viable argument that your presenting this time. Your cogent defense is lacking due to a specious argument you've presented. The Lore is part of the game. If you play MoM it's got it's built in lore. If you play Civilization 1-4, it's also go it's own lore aggregate assumptions.

The lore in the books will come along, and for those of us who find it ruins the immersion, we'll look for mod's to fix it. But complaining about the base quality of the coffee, and being unhappy that the beans are grown in Columbia, as opposed to Africa. Doesn't stand the test. All games will have a certain level of built in game lore. All of them. The only exception to that is a system that is specifically designed from the get go to be setting/period/etc neutral. I reference GURPS.

This isn't GURPS. This is Elemental: War of Magic. And we'll be able to make our own factions, and there will be mods that go above and beyond, that add in new race models, and what not. And they can mod the game heavily enough to probably even strip out the Lore you deplore. But that's because they're giving the community the tools to do that up front. And also follow it up later with additional support.

I'm looking forward to this game, a lot. And will "Mod" my own game world into it at some point. But that's because of what I want. And that doesn't require them to try to change something unnecessarily to suit my whim or need. They'll do that when I find a game play issue. But Lore is not a game play issue.

Actually its more like im watching them build a red four door sedan when I wanted a red sports car - and this thread is them telling me its not done, even as I point out the error. I could easily be wrong. I would rather it be that way.

I like your optimism, and again I hope your right. Simply falling back repeatedly on the mod argument (and the absurd "go open your own studio" argument) bothers me though. Thats not what gaming should be about. I actually know python, and can do some 3D design, but I shouldn't have to. It takes a good game to make you want to mod it. Civ4 has a massive mod community not because its terribly easy to mod, but because its an awesome game that inspires you. I have dreams of a huge DnD Forgotten realms mod, but I know I wont do it if the core game doesn't atleast try to be good.

I guess its funny that you mentioned gurps, because I love gurps. However thats not what I am looking for, I am looking for something akin to an graphically pleasing cross of AoW:SM and MoM. Elemental was touted as that and is so close to it. It's just disappointing to see it go down a different road.

And the author thing, again, is just me stating the truth. He's going to make money on the book. The book is based off elemental. The book arguably couldn't stand without the game (maybe I'm wrong - haven't read it yet). Therefore the game will likely pull in money through an extra avenue. I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic, maybe my tone has just be shaped by reality.

Honestly, if the devs really feel like im just trolling, then start up a new thread, same topic (btw which wasn't this at all - it was about how the lore and game already seem to be meshing poorly) and ill stay out of it. I'm not trying to troll, but falling back on the defensive and fighting over minor phrases is slowly making me feel like one.

endofdayz, I am not CEO of stardock, but I think I can make this conjecture with some confidence: what you want out of Elemental is going to be a bit out of reach without modding. That's the reality, and let me tell you why I think that is. 

Most people buying this game are not like you. They want a world there for them to play in, one where they don't have to put great amounts of their own creativity into the game to get something rich out of it. The lore, the spell names, the little details must be there because most people won't put them in themselves. Maybe you don't like that in Elemental, dragons are sentient. Maybe they're just overgrown beasts in your favorite fantasy universe. Maybe I don't like that his game has fire. My favorite universe doesn't even have fire. This is a problem, so what's the solution? Have the player go through scores of options before the game starts and have Stardock program every possible fantasy element you could ever want into the game? That's clearly excessive. 

The best we can ask for is for awesome editors and tools to replace Frogboy's world with our own should we desire to. You want a spell called "endofdayz," a which summons a shower of demon angels upon the enemy? Plop open that spell and effects editor or what have you and make it. I hate fire. So maybe I make a simple mod where you can't use the fire spellbook. 

I think I wrote too much to express a simple point, sorry. TLDR: you want to customize your world but not to mod. That's not a commercially viable for the company to support, because most people expect a rich world waiting for them when they open the box. The best they can do is make it easy for you to mod, which they're doing. 

I don't have bought yet Elemental, so i can't speak about this game; anyway i'm really concerned about the statement on GC2 lore.
I have played GC2 for a lot of years and i can say that from a gameplay perspective it's really superb, and TotA was one of the best expansion released. Anyway one of the weakest point of that game was the lore, civilizations in this game had no personality, technology texts had only lazy humour which wasn't funny and destroyed immersion, minor races  shared all the same portrait and again had lazy backstories. There was really nothing in the lore which was immersive or well written in GC2.

I really hope this time there is more attention to the lore because if it has the same quality of GC2 that's really concerning.

@endofdayz - The problem isn't your criticism, but how you put it, and the fact that is mostly(imo) uniformed criticism.

Stating something is just there to 'make a quick buck' is insinuating that it's not being made to be a quality product and that they're just throwing something together for extra money. That is clearly not the case and I would be offended it you said the same thing about a product I was creating. Stating the truth and being tactful are two different things and they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, Elemental has been stated to be very easily moddable, using both in game editors and outside code such as XML or Python. . The Beta is not representative of the final product. The functionality of the beta has been purposely dumbed down so that we can test the things they want us to test. Your worries, to me, seem unfounded and un-researched.

Is that how im coming across? What I want is (for lack of a better term) a more generic fantasy setting. Easy customization is great, but that "rich world" you speak of is what I want, but I feel (again, don't know) that the direction they are going down is one where there is less "wideness" to the lore. I like DnD because there is a little of something for everyone in it. This feels (again, most notably with the races) as if I am being railroaded in a sandbox game. All my annoyance with the book and such stems from the belief that the game will be too narrow to hold my interest.

I think one of the important things to remember is that the factors that made master of magic good are all being taken into account. MoM had: several races, different magic paths, heroes and citybuilding... it had a large amount of detail in the massive strategy guide but very little within game lore and descriptive content... I think part of that was stripping down the size of the game rather than an attempt to make it more sandboxy. Dominions 3 adds a massive amount of lore and unique creatures but has no citybuilding and a completely different economy model with a different sort of customisation... no custom artifacts but you do get to customise god&dominion... almost all the customisation happens before turn 1... so you can never make 200 different items or units... partially because the game engine is hardcoded and can't fit more items in... which means it's not going to get better with time, it's a completed polished gem.

I think every game is going to be different, but all the elements are sliding into place here for something great. Better artwork than any similar game... citybuilding, resources, magic, heroes, diplomacy... and massive unit/tile/etc customisation with tactical battles (rather than civ style battles or dom3 AI controlled 5 scripted action battles) The fact that the team is making every effort possible to make it open and discuss everything with the community helps and will help the content and detail improve with time.

I think the lore is more than just an added extra it's essential to the enjoyment of the game. It makes every default game have character... you can add in a race to your sandbox games knowing that they'll focus more on magic or be more aggressive... you can set up your own little worlds within the worlds... have several kingdom civs with you against a single fallen with a stronger difficulty and try to ally with everyone to fight the trogs and generally defend against the ugly fallen invasion.

With enough flavour text matching simple but essential differences between races it is easier to pick your friends and foes and understand why a race is doing what it's doing. In MoM everything about the AI was determined by it's spellbooks... really if you wanted to compare it you could say that each spellbook was a bundle of lore, you knew they'd fight with hellhounds, fire and pick off your champions with bolts of fire and doom... or you'd know they'd shield their troops and have holy armour and heal the wounded... it makes no difference if the names are randomly generated on spells, units or factions... as long as you have something to link playstyles with AI players and know what your strengths would be if you played as that faction. The lore never detracts from sandbox games... if I didn't know which race was aggressive I wouldn't have very much control or understanding of the flow of the game and you can't rely on visuals if you are going to have half the races being ugly and half pretty humans... lots of descriptive text can help flesh out situations... even just a single word "aggressive" or "warlord" is useful but it doesn't enhance immersion as much as a nicely written background that fits with every unique faction benefits and buildings.

I play as certain races in twilight of the arnor simply because of the unique buildings and lore... I enjoy playing as the Yor, Iconians and Thalans and I think that I'll want to play each of the races/factions/sovs in turn as they become more distinct not just in terms of pure bonuses... since your custom race will have the bonuses you play best with, but for the lore and the unique features of that race and that game... and the lore is a massive unique feature.

As a quick example, go look at this thread-https://forums.elementalgame.com/381206

I don't think people wanted to just customize their race and and fight in an otherwise narrow and static world. I think the desire for their own races stem from the fact that they wish to have some variety overall. Maybe I'm wrong, but at the moment the races look as if they will all be too similar to me. While I could probably live with that (and likely will have to), having the entire world poisoned by lore is just disheartening.

"Oh fallen race X has researched weapon Y. Just like last game. And they found artifact Z, for the third game in a row..."

That's what I fear. Well, insofar as you can fear wasting 50 bucks.

If it is random and unpredictable events and AI you want I'm sure simply increasing the rate of events and having a 'random' variable to AI personalities would do that. What else are you worried about?

GC2 is also thousands of years after Elemental, to the point where the events of Elemental are relegated to fairy tale status and the people of your empire have a soft spot for bad humor. Personally the sillyness didn't break the immersion for me, but projected a different style of sci-fi TBS, where things aren't taken quite as seriously by the races present as they would be in (insert serious sci-fi TBS here).

I'm rather unimpressed with this argument. Unless you're talking about the single player campaign, all I've heard is how different each world generated is going to be, with unique technologies, items, sites, etcetera. I think different worlds will have different "master quests" too.

I think some of your earlier comments were uncalled for and silly. I mean, are you seriously suggesting that Warhammer would have been better off portraying a "unicorns 'n orcs" fantasy world? I pretty much think that vanilla DnD has some of the worst lore of any game. It's pretty much a "some assembly required" kind of game, because using it out of the box for any length of time, it can get stupid very fast.

Those Chaos Unicorns would be scary, man.

It sounds like endofdayz is upset that Elemental is not going to be a generic fantasy high-magic world like D&D with things like room-sized gellatenous cubes and floating eyeballs with death rays. But it was never hyped or marketed to be that. They've said from the very beginning that we'll be playing with two races (but several factions) of humans, and the world is such that fantastical creatures are rare but very powerful. They've just always said that it's a game about humans, not armies of unicorns.

I agree with you. The 'lore' should be in the initial discreiption of the map/campaign and that is it. I really hope in Sandbox mode we are not always on a dying world trying to make it furtal blah blah blah.. I hope to create many different maps with thier own story. Not that the main campaign story is not interesting it's just I don't want every Elemental game I play be the same thing.

I am one who does think game play is more important than lore. Both in TBS games and in RPG like Dungeons and Dragons. The game play is the heart of any game and the Lore is merely the skin. When gameplay is solid then the Lore will be only that much better.  and I'm sorry but the Game should NEVER come second to LORE. And yes I do DM and Play Dungeons and Dragons. think of Gamplay (rules) as the physics of the world your playing in.  

Look it is clear that his statment is based on what we have seen happen over the years in TBS as well as others.

You have TBS games that are released with a campaign that usally is not very good but the Sandbox maps are great. Hence the reason that most people I know and have talked to over the years don't bother with the campaign. Now if Brad can pull of a fun campaign while still keeping a good Sandbox element to the game then this will indeed be a truly unique and fun game.

I guess I don't really know what you want. Would you rather them cram as many traditional races and monsters into the smallest amount of room? Instead of trying something deep and new and passionate and unexpected, you want them basically to do the exact same thing that's been done a million times? You don't want to have the "same thing", but you are essentially asking for the "same thing".

I basically despise that approach. No game that goes for "generic" is ever truly great. It just feels uninspired. I think it's unfair to say that lore means predictable gameplay. Usually, it's the precise opposite. I'm glad that Elemental has taken the approach of making quality scenarios and factions rather than merely a great volume of shallow content.

Honestly, good lore grows with good gameplay. The whole essence mechanic is something really useful that's been directly inspired by the lore. I wasn't at the brainstorming sessions at Stardock, but I feel if they were aiming for an MoM clone they would have never developed this mechanic.

Another example is STALKER. STALKER's lore basically dictated gameplay, and they came up with something new and fresh.

I feel like what you guys want is a bland sandwich. Sure, it'll fill your stomach, but wouldn't you want a little flavor?

You make this sound like it's been done a million times. What would you have in place of this that's more interesting? I'm not convinced that the anti-lore people have better ideas.

I do appreciate the thought and hard work of the lore and even adding the book. But will players notice and appreciate the lore? Really that depends on how the game plays out. Adding a engaging story and putting faces and characteristics to your units is how its supposed to be. I dont see this game PROJECTING the lore, unless you guys plan to do lots of work compared to current beta.

And the book... i mean the main point behind this game is open ended sandbox of maps/levels and modding.

But if you find a way to channel and project the lore to the players i would love that even more.

My take on this was that the concern was that the 'need' for lore was forceing some of the mechanics/design to take a back seat (not saying I agree with this interpretation, but that's what I got out of it).

I agree that that would be a valid concern as well, and I do share it to a degree, though nothing to do with Brad getting a book published.  However, I am in the camp who didn't like the 'cute' aspect of GC2, and hope that EWoM is more 'serious'.  Thoguh I'm guessing I will be dissapointed there, and shouted down by those who would rather not hear contrary opinions.

Because that's exactly what happened to me in the GC forums, and this seems to be essentially the same crowd.

I've no real problems with fanbots though, just funny when they don't seem to realize that's all they are