Frogboy Frogboy

Elemental: A Preview of Magic & Sorcery

▼

Elemental: A Preview of Magic & Sorcery

from JoeUser Forums

In Elemental BETA 2, the strategic objectives are strictly limited because the player does not have access to magic. The goal is to see what the strategic strengths and weaknesses of Elemental’s mechanics are when magic has been restricted.  Elemental Beta 2 is Elemental: Mundania.

In Elemental: Mundania, food is the critical resource. Materials are fairly easy to come by and metal can be found. But ultimately, food is the key strategic element. Food allows for larger populations which in turn allows for more city specialization which allows for larger armies and so forth.

But Magic changes everything.

The Power of Sorcery

A few points to consider:

  • Magic is already needed to revive the land enough to build on. With an even greater essence sacrifice Sorcerers can revive the land to become fertile.
  • Citizens default to only 5 hit points. Far too few points to bother spending money equipping such fragile beings. Spells, Shards, and Essence sacrifices can vastly change this. In The Silmarillion, Morgoth sacrificed much of his inherent strength into his minions. Players can choose to do this as well via Sorcery.
  • Potential Champions wander the world. What makes them special? What makes an Adventurer or Loremaster worthy to stand out from the average peasant? The difference is that they have the rare gift of being potential Sorcerers. You can imbue them with some of your essence and then they too can start to contribute to your Kingdom of Magic.

The Strategic Elements

Food is important in a mundane world. The shards, however, are the most important resource in a magical world.

These things and more you will see during the Beta 3 series. Stay tuned!

294,427 views 89 replies
Reply #51 from Elemental Forums Top

I see the point cost for the books to be a magical version of the racial picks that allow you to make 'yithril bows' or 'demon armor' or whatever.  A specialty - IF you can secure the proper resources to use the item (is there a special wood tile by the way?).  You aren't guaranteed metal nearby, but it is definitely more common than shards.  Otherwise you get the general equipment available, but don't have the super item.  Likewise, any caster can throw fireballs with some minor research, but only a channeler with the fire book, heavy fire research, and eight fire shards can sling volcanoes at the annoying king next door.  Now if the annoying king with his hosts of yithril bow-armed horsemen go all Genghis Khan on you before the volcano to the face, it's a moot point, but that's what makes the potential of Elemental so awesome.

Reply #52 from Elemental Forums Top

Do the shards have any meaningful effect other than powering those top-end spells? If not, I don't quite understand the logic behind having sovereigns possess specific spell books in the first place. It seems like just a MoM holdover at this point, and as has been commented, the mechanics right now make them a gamble (which is very different from a calculated risk).

On the other hand, it makes sense to have a mechanic whereby certain sovereigns have aptitude for certain types of magic. Are the lower-level spells still divided into schools, just not restricted by an essence requirement? If so, perhaps possessing the relevant spellbook could influence research. Spells in your chosen schools could have their rarity reduced, so you should have the option of picking them sooner. The "big spells" could then be available to everyone, just very very rare... so you're still more likely to gain them with the spellbook than without. Or hell, they could remain guaranteed. Starting with one spell from each of your books would also be thematic, though perhaps too strong.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #53 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 49

You wouldn't.  You're rolling the dice. But only really powerful spells are in those books. Most of the typical spells you will get from researching them in the magic trees.

Which leads to some very interesting motivations for war with some kingdom minding it's own business. If I have the fire book, and Parriden has a fire shard that they don't want to part with willingly...well perhaps I'll lead a strike force to take possession of that shard and OMGWTFBBQ! my enemies with the pure raw elemental power of fire. Purge them with the cleansing flames and such  }:)

I wonder if shards can be traded diplomatically (ala trade goods in GC2)...more interesting goodness there.

 

Quoting Eisenhund, reply 48
I hate to say it, but it looks to me like the guy is getting ready for a barbecue.

OMGWTFBBQ!  ;P

Actually he is anticipating using that shard to rain magma down upon his enemies' heads...good times, good times.

Reply #54 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 49

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 20
"Shards don't grow on trees."

Given this was said by Frogboy, it does sort of bring up the question: How do I pick my Shard based Magic Books, which is done pre-map generation, with any kind of consistent knowledge they will actually see any use at all?

Why would I spend valuable creation points if uncertainty becomes a factor?

You wouldn't.  You're rolling the dice. But only really powerful spells are in those books. Most of the typical spells you will get from researching them in the magic trees.

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?

Just as an aside. I await the next 2-3, and onwards, weeks with much anticipation.

twitch twitch ;P :S o_O

 

Reply #55 from Elemental Forums Top

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?

EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

+1 Loading…
Reply #56 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!
oh really????

harpo

Reply #57 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

Apologies if you thought this grind was somehow FUN, yet. I am logging into MP if your words speak true... ;)

 

Reply #58 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 50

Quoting Hound, reply 34Could there be a way to focus entirely on magical power and spell research and stay competitive in the game?

Minimal expansion, minimal armies but superior magical power and knowledge to secure and seal some shards for yourself...A number of us have been asking this.  No sign of if/how it'd be done.
Only ways I can think of include:

- Using essence.  All cities have some essence cost, even captured ones (to hold back the devastation or something like that?).  This'd give few-city empires more essence available for magic/etc, than empires that spend a lot of essence on many cities.

- Using tech.  Civics techs would be required to get an increasing number of cities, so empires that skip those techs can instead focus on the magic line.  The smaller empires would need to be able to match the larger empires teching rate else the larger could research both civics and magic as fast as the smaller researches magic only.

There's still 3 ways to win (diplomatic, master spell, and master quest) for smaller empires but it'd be fun to have a viable small-but-puissant vs. large-but-less-advanced military struggle.

There's always modding! 

You'd probably need some civics tech, just because almost everything does. But if you can summon magical creatures to fight for you and can imbue champions to make a small army of super-warriors, you could probably skip most of the warfare tree.

Reply #59 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

 

If it makes you feel any better I'm not having fun yet.  The idea that everything is overpowered is interesting.  It seems like in every other game everything is underpowered.

Reply #60 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56


You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

A strategy game that doesn't have all the resources I want/need/desire in one area so I have to think and strategize...[gasp!] The horror! The horror!

;P

Reply #61 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 59
You'd probably need some civics tech [for the small-empires-being-viable-vs-large strategy], just because almost everything does. But if you can summon magical creatures to fight for you and can imbue champions to make a small army of super-warriors, you could probably skip most of the warfare tree.
That makes sense.  Add in some Adventuring techs to get some powerful items, and it could work with current features (or at least what it seems current features at release will be).

So a few civics techs for an economy, a few adventuring tech for items and maybe henchcritters/loot, and a lot of spell techs, and David may be viable vs. Goliath.

Next up... testing!

Reply #62 from Elemental Forums Top

Humm. In MoM there were spells that could change the mana type of a node. Do the same options exist for shards? Even better perhaps than spells would be buildings you could construct over a node to retune it's type. Just my 2¢

Reply #63 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 58

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56
I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!
Apologies if you thought this grind was somehow FUN, yet. I am logging into MP if your words speak true...

 

I have to pass this evening on more MP play. Just faced a 30 Turn stack with a 150 attack entity. Thus your OP statement is indeed correct. I will require some research to overcome that as my stack had only a 6 attack max. :)

Reply #64 from Elemental Forums Top

It was still fun though John! WAIT I DIDN'T SAY THAT! (FROGS!) :ninja:

Reply #65 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

oh yeah, this is my game right here.  this is what makes starting a new game the most fun, especially in multiplayer.  having to just go with what you get, and destroy everybody.  please make this happen, and make it insane!

Reply #66 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

 

Wow, you've discovered the same thing that I and my friends had with video games.  Games try so hard to be balanced these days that they become bland.  I am kind of amazed to see a developer say that games SHOULD be imbalanced (but fun).  Gives me hope :D

 

+karma

Reply #67 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56


EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Quoting Stmorpheus, reply 66


oh yeah, this is my game right here.  this is what makes starting a new game the most fun,

Yep yep!!  I like variance in TBS starts as well.  Roll with what you find.  With each passing week, I grow evermore interested in this game.  Had to come out of lurk mode to finally say that :~)

 

Reply #68 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

I will bow to your insider info but that answer doesn't actually resolve my worry. If the most powerful Book based spells remain Shard based, then how can I be assured that the map will allow for any Book choice to be at a best 50/50 chance of the dice?
EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

You start out with a shard in your area but maybe no food. Or maybe you have food but no metal in your area. Or maybe you have metal but no horses. Or maybe you have a shard and horses but you have no crystal. Or maybe you have a shard and crystal but no good NPCs.  

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

But will we have the assurance that any number of needed shards will be there ? Like if I buy a book of fire with a spell that need 4 shards, but the map has only 3 ... and even if there's 4 on the map, the time you get them, then you already won.

Why would I buy books of magic if I'm not even sure to be "able" to cast them once in the game ?

Reply #69 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 69
...Why would I buy books of magic if I'm not even sure to be "able" to cast them once in the game ?
"You've got to ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?"

-Dirty Harry

Reply #70 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 70

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 69...Why would I buy books of magic if I'm not even sure to be "able" to cast them once in the game ?"You've got to ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?"
-Dirty Harry

I don't think this'll be as big as an issue to worry about as we're worrying.  Worse-to-worse, we can throw mana-filtering and mana-amplifying abilities into the magic tree...

Reply #71 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 56

EVERYTHING in Elemental is overpowered.

EVERY game of Elemental should be a roller coaster ride of imbalance. But Fun.

Though, NOT until release dammit. If you are having fun during the betas, I'll find you!

 

I like these statements A LOT! Reminds me of Total Annihilation and SupCom where there is no rock,scissors, paper system, but all units are balanced "within themselves". They have strong and weak points.

So if I focus my game on summoning badass creatures I will feel a great pleasure in my strategic genius. Until I meet someone else with their own smart plan that will undo mine :)

Reply #72 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 69


But will we have the assurance that any number of needed shards will be there ? Like if I buy a book of fire with a spell that need 4 shards, but the map has only 3 ... and even if there's 4 on the map, the time you get them, then you already won.

Why would I buy books of magic if I'm not even sure to be "able" to cast them once in the game ?
Although I do like the fun of "making the best out of what you got"... I also think a method for conversion would be nice.   Conversion should be costly though.  You'd have to weigh the costs with the benefits.  Better to have the required items.  But if you really really want it, and can pay the inflated costs; you can convert stuff into different kinds of stuff??  The purpose being to not restrict some fun gameplay options, while preserving the point behind wildly variable starts.  Those costs could vary according to rarity and/or power.  X Whatchamacallits and X Gold = 1 Shard.  etc  Buildings and/or Techs could also be required for conversion.  ??

Reply #73 from Elemental Forums Top

I am more interested on if we can imbue creatures... like, oh say.. a dragon? (quick background story, im a dragon, i love them i breathe them) And are there different color variations of dragon? Gotta get a black one and name him Ancalagon. He was the true power, not Melkor.

Wonder what imbuing normal peasants will give? A shield that ignores X damage, then fails? The ability to not miss for 5 attacks? (with that, a hoard of peasants would be much more threatening to high creatures and armies).

Anyone else play Age of Wonders? Im hoping for some of the spells like that... i hear theres already raising and lowering mountains, but you could also do things like freeze water to walk across.

Hmm, another interesting idea for a spell would be to create a highe-level creature den. You could place it at a choke point to guard your kingdom (think Shelob) or terrorize your enemy with one in close proxy to them.

Edit: also... any chance at group spells? rituals?

Reply #74 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NatakuTDH, reply 74
He was the true power, not Melkor.
Didn't Melkor create dragons between other things?

Reply #75 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 75



Quoting NatakuTDH,
reply 74
He was the true power, not Melkor.
Didn't Melkor create dragons between other things?

Erg i cannot remember, that. I remember he twisted the elves and many other light creatures to dark... Ancalagon was his greatest supporter, and he fell shortly after Ancalagon. Ancalagon the Black, king of dragon... said to be so large he blotted out the sun at a distance!

Perhaps my mind is tainted with dragons-love?

Ohh someone needs to mod a true LotR game... you play as melkor and strong units would be common.. balrog.. dragon.. ohh the possabilities...