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NNAMED SENIOR U.S. OFFICIALS LEAKED to The New York Times Thursday that U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration was considering a policy shift on Israel’s blockade of Gaza. The U.S. officials reportedly described the Israeli blockade of Gaza as “untenable” and the deadly Israeli raid on the Turkish-led aid flotilla as impetus for a new U.S. approach to Gaza.

These hints of a U.S. shift toward Israel and Gaza, while still in the unofficial stage of newspaper leaks, are deeply troubling for the state of Israel. The comments by anonymous U.S. officials come after Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Tuesday, that “Israel stands to lose its closest ally in the Middle East if it does not change its mentality.” Though Turkey is stopping short of threatening a breach in its relations with Israel, it is clearly looking to publicly downgrade the alliance. And though the United States is not about to abandon its Jewish ally, Washington is not about to rush to Israel’s defense in this difficult time, either.

Israel is not a country that can survive in isolation. It is a small country surrounded by hostile states that sits on the edge of the Mediterranean basin, where larger, more distant powers with greater resources will inevitably entangle Israel in pursuit of their own interests. In such a dynamic neighborhood, Israel has to maneuver very carefully in trying to ensure its own security. Israel can do this by making itself attractive enough to the Mediterranean power of the day such that the Mediterranean power sees in its interest to fulfill the role of Israel’s security patron. The second Israel becomes a liability to that patron, however, the country’s vulnerability soars and its survivability comes into question.

“Israel is not a country that can survive in isolation.”

The Soviet Union — eyeing a strategic foothold in the Mediterranean Basin — was a patron to Israel since the state’s inception. Israel, wanting to balance its relationship with the Soviets and unnerved by Soviet sponsorship of the Arabs, then joined forces with France, which was fighting its own bloody war in Algeria and was already in a hostile relationship with the Arabs. French interest in Israel began to wane, however, in 1962 with the end of the Algerian civil war. Paris quickly began to view Israel as a liability to its efforts to maintain influence in the Middle East. By 1967, the United States was prepared to forge an alliance with Israel as a strategic counter to a Soviet push in the eastern Mediterranean. By aligning with both Israel and Turkey during the Cold War, the United States had two strategic pressure points in the Mediterranean basin to counter Soviet footholds in Egypt, Syria and Iraq. Israel and Turkey were natural allies facing common foes, while the United States was the glue that held this alliance structure together.

But times have changed. Turkey is no longer a vulnerable power in need of a bodyguard to fend off the Soviets. Present-day Turkey is rediscovering its Ottoman roots in the Middle East, Caucasus, Europe and Central Asia, and is using its Islamic credentials to spread Turkish influence throughout the Muslim world. A tight alliance with Israel does not fit with this agenda. Turkey derives leverage from having a relationship with both Israel and the Muslim states (and so is unlikely to break ties with Israel), but is also viewing its alliance with Israel as a liability to its expansionist agenda. The United States, while needing to maintain a strategic foothold in the Mediterranean basin, is trying desperately to follow through with a timeline to militarily extricate itself from Iraq and reach some sort of understanding with the Iranians. Turkey, unhindered by the Persian-Arab and Israeli-Arab rivalries, can do things for the United States in this region that Israel simply can’t achieve. In short, Turkey is the more valuable ally to Washington than Israel at this point in time.

With Jordan locked into an alliance, Egypt being more interested in maintaining peace with Israel than making war and Syria too militarily weak to pose a meaningful challenge, Israel is not as dependent on the United States as it used to be. This decline in dependence explains why Israel feels able to push the envelope with the United States when it comes to thorny issues like Iran and settlement construction in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. With Turkey regaining flexibility in the region and Israel not under heavy military pressure, the U.S. adhesive in the Turkish-Israeli relationship is wearing off. Washington no longer has the influence over these two powers it once had.

The United States thus finds itself in the difficult position of having to choose between its two allies in the Middle East. Washington will try a balancing act, but it has no choice but to lean toward the Turks in the wake of the flotilla crisis. A little animosity with Israel might also help the United States gain some credibility in this part of the world. Israel, on the other hand, finds itself backed into a corner. Turkey means it when it says its relationship with Israel will not go back to what it once was. The two countries will likely maintain relations, but Israel will not be able to rely on Turkey as a regional ally. The United States, meanwhile, cannot afford to prioritize Israel’s interests over Turkey’s. In this geopolitical climate, Israel lacks the luxury of options.

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Reply #1 Top

So I guess the question would be: in the case of a geopolitical shift between Turkey and Israel like the one announced here, and the U.S. has to make a stand, for which of its ally should it be?

In the case Israel becomes (or HAS become) a liability to the U.S. and sees the (incredibly large) level of military, diplomatic and financial support reduced, it will have to turn toward a new patron. Who do you think could become Israel's new patron?

Russia might qualify. It would provide a good counterpoint influence to Turkey.

An European power? Maybe Germany..? Germany has little ties to the Middle-East, AFAIK (but I can be mistaken), is currently on the rise, and might see Turkey as a rival. And it would also tie-in well with any Russian/Germany friendship.

Reply #2 Top

The best thing to happen to Turkey, internationally, was the break up of the old USSR.  They have made mistakes, but have profited more than they have lost.  They are going to become the major player in the region.

As for Israel, they really do not have a lot of choices.  They have Russia, China and the US.  I do not think they will do well with Russia, because Russia has too many interests with the Arabic states (the biggest one being oil prices).  China is a possible.  China wants to become a major player and is looking for allies that do not ask questions.  But I think Israel will stick with the US.  Obama is a temporary bump in the road of relations.

Reply #3 Top

But I think Israel will stick with the US. Obama is a temporary bump in the road of relations.

But will the U.S. stick with Israel?

Regardless of what you might think of Obama, Israel might become or HAS become a liability to the U.S., which means that it is in your best interest to cut support.

As for China, I doubt much they'd go support Israel. They need the oil too much from Iran and the arabic states to antagonist. And they have nothing to win by getting a foothold in the Meditteranean at the moment. They would rather expand in the Pacific and the Indian ocean for the moment.

As for Russia... I don't know. I don't see why Russia need the Arab states. Russia wants conflict and uncertainty in the Middle-East, as it drives Oil and Gas price upward. And specially if Turkey become resurgent while claiming Arabic/Muslim leadership, they  might see their diplomatic options in the ME dwindling down to something marginal (like Iran, but even then, I doubt it). So having Israel on your side might work out.

Again, I think Israel-German ties would work out, as German has a lot less stakes in the Middle-East to loose. And also, Germany wants to counter Turkey's influence in the Balkans, which might very well become Germany's point of interest in the future.

Reply #4 Top

Regardless of what you might think of Obama, Israel might become or HAS become a liability to the U.S., which means that it is in your best interest to cut support.

 A liability how? The euphoria that would be present in terrorists like Hamas and Hezbolla, in kicking Israel to the curb, would be short lived. They, and most Arab nations, don't like our way of life, that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Israel is the USC's best prospects for maintaining an eye on the middle east. Liability...hardly. Do you believe that when the Israeli's took out the nuclear facilities in Iraq and Syria, we weren't grateful? US doing the same would have had much farther reaching geo-political complications. Israel as a US liability is just a Palestinian wet dream.

Reply #5 Top

A liability how? The euphoria that would be present in terrorists like Hamas and Hezbolla, in kicking Israel to the curb, would be short lived. They, and most Arab nations, don't like our way of life, that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Israel is the USC's best prospects for maintaining an eye on the middle east. Liability...hardly. Do you believe that when the Israeli's took out the nuclear facilities in Iraq and Syria, we weren't grateful? US doing the same would have had much farther reaching geo-political complications. Israel as a US liability is just a Palestinian wet dream.

You sound like a broken record who can't face some present facts. You just spew out Islamophobic rethorics, factual mistakes, and 20-years old events to justify the so-call necessity of keeping supporting Israel.

Turkey is, right now, much more useful to you in maintaining peace in the Middle-East than Israel. And they will become even more so in the near future. If they distance themselves from Israel, you might have to pick which ally you want most on your side, and not picking the most useful ally would be dangerous for your national interests.

Reply #6 Top

But will the U.S. stick with Israel?

Regardless of what you might think of Obama, Israel might become or HAS become a liability to the U.S., which means that it is in your best interest to cut support.

Until the Middle East is stabilized, Israel is not as much a liability as an asset.  Countries look at the cost versus the benefit, and right now, both Israel and America see more to gain than to lose.

As for Russia... I don't know. I don't see why Russia need the Arab states. Russia wants conflict and uncertainty in the Middle-East, as it drives Oil and Gas price upward.

OPEC (not arabs per se)

Again, I think Israel-German ties would work out, as German has a lot less stakes in the Middle-East to loose.

No, Israel does not want a country that goes to sleep at night in the middle of a firefight.  What Europe fears has already occurred (except for Great Britain).  Irrelevancy outside their borders.

And China?  You are thinking inside the box.  Israel is a plum for the picking if the US and Israel parts ways.  It would be a PR coup in the 3rd world if China picked them up.

Reply #7 Top

Turkey is, right now, much more useful to you in maintaining peace in the Middle-East than Israel. And they will become even more so in the near future. If they distance themselves from Israel, you might have to pick which ally you want most on your side, and not picking the most useful ally would be dangerous for your national interests.

Why did 9-11 happen?  Osama saw us as paper tigers.  Assuming you are correct (and I do disagree with you on that critical point) and we drop Israel.  What does that make the US?  Paper tigers.

With Obama that is possible, only because he is really clueless (and has lousy advisers).  The next president will not be that stupid, even if he is a democrat (unless Biden succeeds Obama - then he will be stupider).

Reply #8 Top

Why did 9-11 happen? Osama saw us as paper tigers. Assuming you are correct (and I do disagree with you on that critical point) and we drop Israel. What does that make the US? Paper tigers.

That doesn't make you "Paper Tigers". That simply shows that you pick up the best ally of the two when you had to make a choice.

If there is weakness to be had, it's because of your troop exposure in Iraq and Afghanistan. regarding Iraq, Turkey is the key toward removing that weakness. I really doubt Israel can help you on that one.

Seriously, what Israel has done recently to help the U.S. that wasn't also directly in Israel interest? You are quite busy right now trying to put together a very delicate government in Iraq so all your deads and the billion of dollars spent there wouldn't be in vain, and Israel just reacted the worst way possible to the challenge Turkey issued, throwing just about the worst amount of gas possible into the fire you're trying tu put out.

That move was a clear liability for you in the region. Ultimately, what I'd like is Israel to be secured, the U.S. to be safe and the region to be less of a hotspot.

No, Israel does not want a country that goes to sleep at night in the middle of a firefight. What Europe fears has already occurred (except for Great Britain). Irrelevancy outside their borders.

Last time I checked, Germany is holding Europe in its pocket and could draw many concession with its recent actions. Again, most scenario involving Germany would be in the case the Eurozone fractures and Germany becomes free again to pursue it's own agenda, like mentionned in the previous article.

I know you didn't liked the article, but I won't let that piece down, Guy. It is a reality that could very well shape the future, and should be included in the realm of possibilities.

And China? You are thinking inside the box. Israel is a plum for the picking if the US and Israel parts ways. It would be a PR coup in the 3rd world if China picked them up.

And that would only be a PR hit. China has no way or means to providing Israel with the kind of help it needs, and as I stated earlier, China needs OPEC.

Israel doesn't want such patron, methink. Too unreliable. A marriage done for the sake of the camera is the worst kind of deal Israel can come of with.

Reply #9 Top

Why did 9-11 happen? Osama saw us as paper tigers

I think you are WAY oversimplifying 9-11, my friend.

Ultimately, 9-11 wasn't about America. It was about the Arabs' internal struggle. You were just the patrons of many people on one side, and thu, you were the best symbolic target as a rallying point to rebel against the dictatorships you (and by extension, the rest of the West) support in the Muslim world.

It wasn't a bad tactic. But they underestimated the warriness the middle-class of these countries held them, and most decided, ultimately, to side with you. There wasn't any Grand Revolutions.

Your intelligence network also had a lot to do about it.

Reply #10 Top

You sound like a broken record who can't face some present facts. You just spew out Islamophobic rethorics, factual mistakes, and 20-years old events to justify the so-call necessity of keeping supporting Israel.

The same Islamophobic rhetoric (btw I helped deliver aid to turkey (earthquake) 2001) , factual mistakes (whatever those are), and old events your countrymen are dying over? Yep, must be me.

Sorry, mistook your article for a serious debate. Please continue with your weekly game of geopolitical fantasy. If you wish Israel away hard enough maybe you'll get lucky.

Turkey is, right now, much more useful to you in maintaining peace in the Middle-East than Israel. And they will become even more so in the near future. If they distance themselves from Israel, you might have to pick which ally you want most on your side, and not picking the most useful ally would be dangerous for your national interests.

Yeah useful, like when Turkey refused transit of US troops and supplies in 2003....recent enough for you? You're not looking for answers, you're looking for agreement.

 

On a side note: Doc you're a saint playing this hacks game each week. Good luck leading the blind to see.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 5

A liability how? The euphoria that would be present in terrorists like Hamas and Hezbolla, in kicking Israel to the curb, would be short lived. They, and most Arab nations, don't like our way of life, that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Israel is the USC's best prospects for maintaining an eye on the middle east. Liability...hardly. Do you believe that when the Israeli's took out the nuclear facilities in Iraq and Syria, we weren't grateful? US doing the same would have had much farther reaching geo-political complications. Israel as a US liability is just a Palestinian wet dream.
You sound like a broken record who can't face some present facts. You just spew out Islamophobic rethorics, factual mistakes, and 20-years old events to justify the so-call necessity of keeping supporting Israel.

Turkey is, right now, much more useful to you in maintaining peace in the Middle-East than Israel. And they will become even more so in the near future. If they distance themselves from Israel, you might have to pick which ally you want most on your side, and not picking the most useful ally would be dangerous for your national interests.

Old news? Hardly, they just took out the Syria nuclear plant about 4 years ago, in the scheme of things that is current. Liability? What?  Since when has Israel become a liability? First, no country is a puppet country.  You can take a look at N.K and how N.K got away with A TRUE ACT OF WAR!  Turkey, you really think Turkey is some how stable?  I lived in Turkey and the currency is horrible bloated and it is divided.  Most of the upper Northern part wants to be with E.U./westernized while everything below wants to side with the Arab world.  The E.U. has basically told Turkey off by not allowing it in the EU.  Now, why may you ask have they told Turkey off?  Most people don't know this, especially people from the States. 

Well, Turkey and the 'peace activities' being the hypocrites they are have a blockade on Cyprus.  NONE of Turkey's ports or airports are open to Cyprus. 

Turkey is just a door between the Western and Islamic worlds.  Only about 38% of the E.U. population is for Turkey becoming a member.  Graph showing varying levels of support for Turkish membership

The other thing is that 63% of the U.S citizens are for/support Israel.  That is a very conservative number and the percentage could be in the mid-70%. On that percentage, it does not mean that 37% support the PA.  In fact only about 12% of U.S citizens support the PA.  Those other 25% either don't care or want to have nothing to do with either or want to eradicate both sides.  Israel is by any means is not a liability (You also forget the intel that Israel supports).  Turkey is the liability (oh yeah I forgot all that Intel that Turkey supplies the E.U. and the U.S and what they do supply its all rubbish).

One last note about military.  The military was thinking of selling Israel Stealth Bombers.  I'm sure that only about .1% of the American population knows that.  So what? Yeah you're not going to ditch someone that you invested a lot of time or effort into, ESPECIALLY militarily. This was about 4 years ago.  I'm sure since I'm out of the loop so to say Israel might have them already.  The catch was that Israel either wanted them at a very discounted price or on loan.  Israel were even willing to take some of the Stealth Bombers that military had deemed to decommission and purchase the last remaining ones for L.M. that they weren't planning on doing because of the cost.  The thing is that L.M still gets to keep money due to the fact its a government contract.

I'm guessing I'm filling you in on news about Turkey and the U.S.

Reply #12 Top

Sorry, mistook your article for a serious debate. Please continue with your weekly game of geopolitical fantasy.

If you expect somebody to simply accept whatever propaganda that's been hammered into you in the past 30 years without being able to re-evaluate the situation as-is, then don't come to the threads I start.

I don't have any problem arguing points, but simply coming along and giving useless elements like "these people hate us" that don't get the debate forward. You are simply drawing a line in the sand based on xenophobia. Luckily for everyone, leaders of countries have been able to see beyond mere cultural difference and see when common countries' interest are situated.

If you wish to have a discussion about why you'd think Israel will keep being more relevant, geo-politically wise, than Turkey in the next 10 years, I am willing to listen to your arguments.

Either way, Israel being more or less relevant to the U.S.'s strategy, it doesn't change the fact that I don't want it to disapear. But I am favoring the U.S.'s geopolitical safety above any ally's welfare (save Quebec/Canada's, for obvious reasons). If supporting Israel becomes a liability (which is not an element to dismiss out of hand with a backward argument), then I don't see why the USA should entrench itself in a position of weakness for sentimentality's sake.

Yeah useful, like when Turkey refused transit of US troops and supplies in 2003....recent enough for you? You're not looking for answers, you're looking for agreement.

Well, if you refuse to actually understand why an ally might support you in a conflict, you are being blinded only by your own pride.

Turkey had more than ennough reason at the internal to refuse support of the Iraqi War, mostly involving the Kurds in its own territory. Can't say it's the best of reasons (I'd rather have the Kurds form their own independant country, but I doubt it'll ever happen), but it's reason ennough to warrant refusal of support. Not to forget very strong opposition to the war from its population, which was perfectly in their rights.

The U.S.A. responded in kind by capturing Turk troops and interrogating them during the Hood event, anyway. Can't say it helped the relation

But ultimately, your interests concord. And the Turk-USA relation has been longer than Israel's. Turkey wants to establish influence in the region, and you need somebody to take over to prevent Iran from stepping in themselves. I doubt Israel could ever fill that role, and no one trusts the Saudi.

So come back when you actually will be ready to debate, or just ragequit and never come back. Either way, I am ready to listen to proper argumentation either way.

Reply #13 Top

Hardly, they just took out the Syria nuclear plant about 4 years ago, in the scheme of things that is current

Then again, tell me exactly how that is more in the U.S.'s interest than Israel's?

Israel was simply on the lookout to save it's own ass, as it always have. It wouldn't have risked a plane to strike a nuclear plan that would not have risked itself - and it shouldn't have to. Countries don't act out of pure generosity. They act as self-defence, or in defense of what they consider would help securing themselves (like foreign interests).

Since when has Israel become a liability?

Since the U.S. has decided to have a first-hand position into the Middle-East geopolitical situation by removing a key player, Saddam Hussein. Without a strong Iraq, Iran has an open door to exert its influence, and it has, quite strongly.

Since the U.S. has to form a strong independant government in Iraq, it needs allies supportive ennough to do so. Israel becomes a liability, without providing anything in exchange that it wouldn't already do on its own.

Turkey, you really think Turkey is some how stable? I lived in Turkey and the currency is horrible bloated and it is divided. Most of the upper Northern part wants to be with E.U./westernized while everything below wants to side with the Arab world

And that is exactly what makes them so important. They have the potential of being influencial in both the Balkan regions and the Middle-East, by offering a duality that no other country genuinely offers. They also have the highest population of the region, and they are the most stable country around. Just look at their neighbour: the Balkan, the Caucase, the Middle-Eastern kingdoms. None of these rest on very solid ground.

The other thing is that 63% of the U.S citizens are for/support Israel. That is a very conservative number and the percentage could be in the mid-70%. On that percentage, it does not mean that 37% support the PA. In fact only about 12% of U.S citizens support the PA. Those other 25% either don't care or want to have nothing to do with either or want to eradicate both sides. Israel is by any means is not a liability (You also forget the intel that Israel supports). Turkey is the liability (oh yeah I forgot all that Intel that Turkey supplies the E.U. and the U.S and what they do supply its all rubbish).

You quote domestic popularity pools as evidence wether or not a country would be an asset or a liability in the geopolitical scheme of things?

Just check who's has the highest GDP. Who's has the highest population. Who has the strongest reach toward your ennemies, and who could back you up where you are the weakest: on the field.

I doubt very much Israel would ever send troops in Iraq to help you police the area....

.... darn...

HEY! NITRO CRUISER! GUESS WHICH OTHER COUNTRY THAN TURKEY REFUSED TO SEND TROOPS IN IRAQ TOO

where were we?

One last note about military. The military was thinking of selling Israel Stealth Bombers. I'm sure that only about .1% of the American population knows that. So what? Yeah you're not going to ditch someone that you invested a lot of time or effort into, ESPECIALLY militarily. This was about 4 years ago. I'm sure since I'm out of the loop so to say Israel might have them already. The catch was that Israel either wanted them at a very discounted price or on loan. Israel were even willing to take some of the Stealth Bombers that military had deemed to decommission and purchase the last remaining ones for L.M. that they weren't planning on doing because of the cost. The thing is that L.M still gets to keep money due to the fact its a government contract.

Reply #14 Top

That doesn't make you "Paper Tigers". That simply shows that you pick up the best ally of the two when you had to make a choice.

No, that shows the world that we cannot be relied upon when the chips are down.  That is obvious and overt.  Like it or not, we are in the dance with Israel until the situation changes (peace or at least a cessation of fiery rhetoric).  To pull out early is exactly what Clinton did in Somalia, and why we were seen as paper tigers.

Just look at yourself.  If you were counting on someone and they abandoned you in your hour of need, would you then trust them again so readily?

Last time I checked, Germany is holding Europe in its pocket a

Money wise - how many of those pockets are filled with soldiers?  you are mixing apples and oranges.  Germany is a major player in the financial markets, not in the war zones.  And if you think that the Mid east is just looking for a good accountant, you would be right about Germany.

I know you didn't liked the article, but I won't let that piece down, Guy.

This piece I liked.  It was well thought out and written (even if I disagree with parts of it).  The last one was just poorly thought out and written.  Because of that, I really did not comment on the content as the logic and writing was just too convoluted.

And that would only be a PR hit. China has no way or means to providing Israel with the kind of help it needs, and as I stated earlier, China needs OPEC.

To the 3rd world that is all that matters.  China does not need OPEC like Russia does.  China needs oil and there are enough non-OPEC sources to get it from that China can (and may if it suits their geopolitical needs) dump them like a hot potato.

Reply #15 Top

I think you are WAY oversimplifying 9-11, my friend.

No, that was the reason Osama gave. Now I know there are other reasons behind it, but that was the keystone one given by the bastard himself.  We can pile onto it the part about the Kuwaiti Invasion, meddling in the Middle East, yada, yada, yada.  But the intel obtained since 9-11 indicates the Osama did not believe we would respond the way we did because of Somalia, and so he decided to get us.  had he known we would have responded the way we did, he would have gone about it in a different way - in other words it would not be a 9-11.

Reply #16 Top

No, that shows the world that we cannot be relied upon when the chips are down.

If you were counting on someone and they abandoned you in your hour of need, would you then trust them again so readily?

Your argumentation would weight a lot, if not for the fact that the chips aren't down.

Israel is in no clear immediate danger for the moment. The ones that could threaten Israel are Syria, Jordan and Egypt, and they are all weaker than they ever were and, most of all, they are completely disunited. Only a common front of these three would seriously endanger Israel. Each have their own, conflicting agenda.

The splinter groups that harass Israel on a constant basis are also disunited. You have Fatah, Hamas and Hizbullah, all of them with their own agenda. Fatah and Hamas, specially, a playing a zero-sum game, meaning that as long as both of them are relevant, the whole will be weaker.

Israel is more powerful now than it ever have been military-wise. The only thing that endanger it is occasional guerilla attacks committed from hand-made missiles. Can't say it must be nice for the Israeli exposed to those missiles. But it doesn't change the fact that Israel is safer now, and will remain so in the short/medium term. Iran might be having fun with rethorics against Israel, but their actions are separated from their words.

So, the chips aren't down. Israel is not in a time of need.

Money wise - how many of those pockets are filled with soldiers?

Israel doesn't need soldiers as backup. Israel needs materiel and money as backup. And also political/diplomatic backing. Germany could provide this, as they have the mean to offer such support. As opposed to China, which is somewhat limited in it's political backing AND would have trouble providing top-of-the-line materiel.

China needs oil and there are enough non-OPEC sources to get it from that China can (and may if it suits their geopolitical needs) dump them like a hot potato.

China "could", but China won't. That isn't fitting in China's psychological diplomacy. Their behavior has always been to avoid antagonising as many people as possible, and do business everywhere they could.

There is too much to lose, too little to gain. And after all, it might be a "Feat of Strenght" for the 3rd-world country, but it would also antagonise China to those very same 3rd-world countries which are, more often than not, not very in Israel's favor.

No, that was the reason Osama gave. Now I know there are other reasons behind it, but that was the keystone one given by the bastard himself. We can pile onto it the part about the Kuwaiti Invasion, meddling in the Middle East, yada, yada, yada. But the intel obtained since 9-11 indicates the Osama did not believe we would respond the way we did because of Somalia, and so he decided to get us. had he known we would have responded the way we did, he would have gone about it in a different way - in other words it would not be a 9-11.

You responded with incredible strenght. but then again, you were provoked in an incredible way.

I never doubted that the U.S. would react with rage and violence that hasn't been seen in decades after 9/11. Osama proved to be stupid in thinking that because you intervened in a half-hearted military mission with half-heartened reasons equiped with half-heartened materiel, you would behave the same way when stroke at your very heart.

Somalia was but a pebble in your game. 9/11 was a neddle in your heart.

But then again, thinking (stupidly) that you would react weak is but one part of the argument. Ultimately, his goal wasn't to "destroy america". Just to inspire courage in Jihadist revolutionnaries.

Tell me. Right now, after Iraq. After Afghanistan. After Yemen, Pakistan. After all the deaths that the U.S. caused in the Jihadists' ranks. Do you seriously think that anyone consider you as a paper tiger anymore?

You might have this impression, but you have the luxury of siting on the right side of your guns, but no one else in their right mind would (which only underline Osama Bin Laden's delusionnal state). Ultimately, what motivates you is what you might lose. Bush was powerless to defend Georgia against Russia. But now, we are more than bolstering Poland.

If push comes to shove, the U.S. will kick anyone's ass. Georgia was, again, but a relatively strategic insignificant leap forward (somewhat filled with symbolism, however). Ultimately, it didn't proved to be worth your bother and risking conflict against Russia.

Reply #17 Top

Your argumentation would weight a lot, if not for the fact that the chips aren't down.

Are the chips down in Poland?  yet Obama abandoning them has seriously affected American credibility in Europe.  Israel is under siege, so yes the chips are down right now.

he ones that could threaten Israel are Syria, Jordan and Egypt,

Except Iran is already testing rockets that can reach Israel, and have made no secret of its quest for Nuclear weapons (Nu-klar if you are Jimmy Carter).

Israel doesn't need soldiers as backup. Israel needs materiel and money as backup. And also political/diplomatic backing. Germany could provide this, as they have the mean to offer such support. As opposed to China, which is somewhat limited in it's political backing AND would have trouble providing top-of-the-line materiel.

A good leader is not looking at today, but at tomorrow and what might be.  In other words, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.  Germany is not in a position to help them out in that case, nor would Germany have any thing to gain in such a relationship.

There is too much to lose, too little to gain. And after all, it might be a "Feat of Strenght" for the 3rd-world country,

That is probably one of the biggest hoaxes going on.  China wants everyone to think it is 3rd world, and it was just a few years ago.  But the sheer size of the nation (population) makes it first world in everything.  Standard of living?  hard to compare a totalitarian nation with a capitalist one, but even then, China is 1st world.  They want people to see them as 3rd world to leave them alone (like Kyoto).  But they could buy and sell Israel without breaking a sweat (and they may be the last nation on earth that can do that).

I never doubted that the U.S. would react with rage and violence that hasn't been seen in decades after 9/11.

You did not, but Osama did.  And you are probably a lot better aware of what America really is, but most of the world does not remember 1941 or even 1861 and 1917.  Japan, not a backward nation in 41, made the same mistake Osama did.  How many other leaders out there see the same thing?  And it is not like America does not cut and run when it is not the Nation itself that is at risk.  That is what Afghanistan and Iraq have to prove to them.  After what happened in Somalia and Vietnam.

Got to run now, I will look at the rest of your answer soon.

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Dr, reply 17


he ones that could threaten Israel are Syria, Jordan and Egypt,
Except Iran is already testing rockets that can reach Israel, and have made no secret of its quest for Nuclear weapons (Nu-klar if you are Jimmy Carter).


I thought that was GW Bush's fault for that pronouncation! Eeeegads!  Carter gets another point in the poopyface category.  I'll post a real comment, but I need to take care of some business.


Takin care of business.....every day......

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 13

Hardly, they just took out the Syria nuclear plant about 4 years ago, in the scheme of things that is current
Then again, tell me exactly how that is more in the U.S.'s interest than Israel's?

Israel was simply on the lookout to save it's own ass, as it always have. It wouldn't have risked a plane to strike a nuclear plan that would not have risked itself - and it shouldn't have to. Countries don't act out of pure generosity. They act as self-defence, or in defense of what they consider would help securing themselves (like foreign interests).


Since when has Israel become a liability?
Since the U.S. has decided to have a first-hand position into the Middle-East geopolitical situation by removing a key player, Saddam Hussein. Without a strong Iraq, Iran has an open door to exert its influence, and it has, quite strongly.

Since the U.S. has to form a strong independant government in Iraq, it needs allies supportive ennough to do so. Israel becomes a liability, without providing anything in exchange that it wouldn't already do on its own.

Israel was simply on the lookout?  Doesn't make it any less current.  Syria is very unstable and unpredictable  so the U.S has foreign interests in this matter. 

First hand position, what is your definition of first hand position?  If you mean some how the U.S controls Iraq and Iraq is its 'little poodle' then how come the U.S didn't get any oil ( http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html ).  Some control, oh wait, wasn't the war over oil? hhhmmm


Also, every country is out for its own interest, even Canada.

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 13


Turkey, you really think Turkey is some how stable? I lived in Turkey and the currency is horrible bloated and it is divided. Most of the upper Northern part wants to be with E.U./westernized while everything below wants to side with the Arab world
And that is exactly what makes them so important. They have the potential of being influencial in both the Balkan regions and the Middle-East, by offering a duality that no other country genuinely offers. They also have the highest population of the region, and they are the most stable country around. Just look at their neighbour: the Balkan, the Caucase, the Middle-Eastern kingdoms. None of these rest on very solid ground.


The other thing is that 63% of the U.S citizens are for/support Israel. That is a very conservative number and the percentage could be in the mid-70%. On that percentage, it does not mean that 37% support the PA. In fact only about 12% of U.S citizens support the PA. Those other 25% either don't care or want to have nothing to do with either or want to eradicate both sides. Israel is by any means is not a liability (You also forget the intel that Israel supports). Turkey is the liability (oh yeah I forgot all that Intel that Turkey supplies the E.U. and the U.S and what they do supply its all rubbish).
You quote domestic popularity pools as evidence wether or not a country would be an asset or a liability in the geopolitical scheme of things?

Just check who's has the highest GDP. Who's has the highest population. Who has the strongest reach toward your ennemies, and who could back you up where you are the weakest: on the field.

If Turkey was so stable as you put it then why is the E.U. telling it off? 

Wait, wait, you're commenting on me using popularity pools as evidence as to whether or not a country is an asset?  First, it does matter what the people think.  2nd you've just been putting here say and near say and tooting your opinion about Israel being a liability.  Quite the double standard you have, I might say.

If Turkey's GDP is so high and great (again I've send it before ITS CURRENCY IS BLOATED SO I WONDER WHAT ELSE IS BLOATED) why is the E.U. not allowing it to be a member?  Or is that just popularity pools?

Reply #20 Top

HEY! NITRO CRUISER! GUESS WHICH OTHER COUNTRY THAN TURKEY REFUSED TO SEND TROOPS IN IRAQ TOO

Didn't say the US wanted Turkish troops to participate (though they did on their own against the Kurds) in the war (many NATO nations didn't). They refused transit of US troops and equipment THROUGH Turkey. Why would I even expect Israel to send troops? They aren't part of NATO. But I'll bet bottom dollar they provided logistics support.

So forget >10 years. I would say more intelligence flows from Israeli sources to the US than from Turkey, and I would also suspect some intelligence flows to US hostile nations from Turkey. Turkey has an identity crisis at the moment. It isn't quite sure where is sits...western or Muslim world. You can bet high military officials are jockeying for position. Only time will tell what they decide.

The US would have loved to bomb Syria's nuclear facility. Problem is that upsets Russia and most of the Arab world. Israel lost nothing diplomatically by bombing the facility, plus it benefited them with a message to Iran.

Do you realize how many joint weapons programs are in development with the US and Israel? An improved ICBM interceptor missile, and armored vehicle anti-missile system just to name a few. Turkey uses our old equipment and develop little technology on their own (at least to the usefulness of the US or NATO). The US wishes to maintain good relations with both nations, but if it came down to it the choice would be simple.

Reply #21 Top

Somalia was but a pebble in your game. 9/11 was a neddle in your heart.

Back.  True, but it represented the mettle of the US Spirit (actually just a reflection of the president, but that is the overt face to most of the world of the US).

Ultimately, his goal wasn't to "destroy america". Just to inspire courage in Jihadist revolutionnaries.

No, it was to spank us.  He accomplished what he wanted - a disruption of the financial markets (the 50% drop after 9-11 hurt many people), and a slap at our national pride.

Tell me. Right now, after Iraq. After Afghanistan. After Yemen, Pakistan. After all the deaths that the U.S. caused in the Jihadists' ranks. Do you seriously think that anyone consider you as a paper tiger anymore?

It took those actions, and that resolve to destroy the perception.  But it only takes one instance to re-establish it.  Japan found out in WWII.  Since then, what has the US done before Iraq/Afghanistan?  Truman is no longer president, so they do not see "the buck stops here".  Living on past accomplishments is the way to be defeated.  Rome kicked a lot of butt for a long time.  But in the end, they died for the same reason.  Living on past glories, not present victories.

but no one else in their right mind would (which only underline Osama Bin Laden's delusionnal state).

No one?  Iran, Venezuela, North Korea.  They are not no one.

 

Reply #22 Top

I thought that was GW Bush's fault for that pronouncation! Eeeegads! Carter gets another point in the poopyface category. I'll post a real comment, but I need to take care of some business.

What?  You forgot the most important presidential adviser in history?  Amy Cawtaw?  She was without peer until Malia!  You know your presidency sucks when you start getting advice from your children.  It means you do not have any advisers better than that on your staff. ;)