Should I be playing SoSE?

I beat the Hard AI. I don't have any reason to come back to single player. Playing the harder difficulties isn't necessarily adaptive strategy, it's just exploiting the AI for it's weaknesses. I've read about it here and it probably ate into my hard ai run (upgraded star base, lrm spam, AI fleet cohesion)... So I'm done playing single player.

Multiplayer however, people are using only vasari and the game ends before any of the content is used. People are ending the game too quickly and overall using the same tactics, turning SoSE into your average RTS fest. Everybody barely researches. Wouldn't this game be better if getting a lot of civic research upgrades was a viable tactic, instead of purely focusing on the bottom row of the military research?

I am not trying to bash what you all love, I am simply asking if these complaints from a noob's perspective is a valid one enough to turn me away from the game.

24,619 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top

Thats one of the reasons why online has no people. Do like I do and stick to playing friends over IP.

Join the modding community and create the type of game you like.

Reply #2 Top

Multiplayer however, people are using only vasari and the game ends before any of the content is used

That's the "scramble bomber" issue.  It's a big problem in version 1.19 (much like the illuminator bug was in 1.18) that will hopefully get addressed next patch.  There will always be games that end on the rush (that's just the reality of any RTS game) but Sins is quite awesome when the game matures into the mid-game and late game.

Everybody barely researches. Wouldn't this game be better if getting a lot of civic research upgrades was a viable tactic, instead of purely focusing on the bottom row of the military research?

Generally the high level techs are balanced for huge empires with 15+ planets and 1000+ fleet command.  They usually only get used in very long games, but sometimes players will pull out specific techs to excellent effect.  In short games, you should be unsurprised that there's little to no research; let them go on a bit and players will start to bring out other technologies to excellent effect. 

 

The "rush factor" is just a truism of the RTS genre.  Many games "solve" rushes by gimping the first tech level of units, but all this does is push the rush to a later point in time (once the first level of real military units is unlocked).  When Sins games do progress into the late game, the higher tech stuff does get used, gradually phased in over the course of a 60-120 minute match.  However, if a game ends within 30 minutes it just won't have the opportunity to reach any considerable tech level.

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Reply #3 Top

Warning!
Sins Multiplayer-related post detected!
Sanchezz wall-of-text reply inbound!

 

As for MP, it's like this. At first there are 1000 people who wanna play for fun, everybody does cool stuff and all research trees are put into action. Then one of them notices something that wtfpwns everybody. So that guy uses it perpetually on other people. Some people will get pissed off and go play chess/SP/Lan. Others will adapt and think "if I can't beat him playing normally, I gotta start playing like him".

After a few months out of 1000 people
- 400 leave, crying IMBA, NERF and that sort of words.
- 600 stay playing not what makes sense or what they want, but what works best; until somebody figures something else that works even better.

Sad but true, online RTS games were always like this. Only the last scramble bombers buff gave those 600 something very obvious to feed on.

Reply #4 Top

mods hencook, mods. The star trek one is spectacular

Reply #5 Top

occasionally games do get to the end game, and i find that those games are so satisfying, even if I lose.

pick a map slightly larger than the map for the number of people, or even better, try one of the prebuilt maps. I find that entanglement almost always reaches endgame, due to the chokepoints.

if you can trick players into playing sytems of war or dopplegangers, or one of the multistar maps, those games wll go on forever, and uasually end with massive quantities of superweapons firng across the void. a sight to behold for sures.

Reply #6 Top

if you are bored with 5v5 try 1v5 or even 1v10, that would bring you even more challenge. I know that might seems excessive but seriouly I play using the Star Trek Mod me as federation, vs 9 Dominion and the number of battles won't end. and believe me you will lose fleets or even crank the game up to unfair aggressive there a instant challenge

Reply #7 Top

Multiplayer however, people are using only vasari and the game ends before any of the content is used. People are ending the game too quickly and overall using the same tactics, turning SoSE into your average RTS fest. Everybody barely researches. Wouldn't this game be better if getting a lot of civic research upgrades was a viable tactic, instead of purely focusing on the bottom row of the military research?

I am not trying to bash what you all love, I am simply asking if these complaints from a noob's perspective is a valid one enough to turn me away from the game.

AI stomper extraordinaire N3rull correctly predicted my post in this thread.  As per N3rull's request, here is my dreaded evil wall-of-text.  (This game needs an online multiplayer cheerleader and someone has to do it.)

Sins is a great game for online multiplayer once you have gotten up to speed and know what you're doing and can hold your own against the pros.  Now is a great time to start playing vanilla Sins online because the $4 sale that led up to Memorial Day should bring a lot of new players to the game, allowing you to learn the (real humans v. humans) game with them.  I think that you should give the game a try in online multiplayer for a while so that you can make a first-hand decision.

Not everyone is choosing to play Vasari.  I am still seeing a lot of people choosing Advent and TEC, and I would expect even more people to choose those races in regular vanilla Sins (where the new players are) since they probably aren't real comfortable with Vasari and also because the Vasari cannot use starbases in vanilla Sins.  The only reason so many people are choosing Vasari right now is because the Skinatra capital ships (the carrier) received a buff to its Scramble Bombers ability and the Advent (the previous race favorite) received a nerf to its long range frigate, the Illuminator.  Scramble Bombers is overpowering and it needs to be nerfed so that it is better than it was before the buff but not as good as it is now.  This bomber spam can be countered by the other races by spamming out fighters and/or your own bombers.  (There's no rule that says you can't make your own carriers with your own fighters or bombers.)  Also, note that Scramble Bombers is really only overpowered early in the game.  Later on it isn't much different than a player's having a bunch of carriers with bombers on them.

Furthermore, the Vasari have their own significant disadvantages relative to the other races in various ways--their ships are more expensive and they consume more fleet supply points, they do not have a viable light frigate (the Skirmisher which costs 7 fleet supply), and their scouts cannot be used in a pinch to combat enemy LRF spam.  What if your opponent is building ships that are best dealt with by a light frigate spam--carrier frigates, lots of flak frigates, heavy fighting cruisers, scout spam?  The combined fleet supply cost for building one Assailant and one Skirmisher is 13.  For Advent the cost of one Disciple and one Illuminator is 10.  For TEC the cost for one Cobalt and one LRM is 9.  One of Vasari's advantages is the ability to capture neutral extractors (the ones at gravity wells where you can't colonize anything) with their scouts--but if the game is filled with other Vasari players (or aggressive TEC and Advent players) who are also trying to hold onto those neutrals?  What if there just aren't many neutrals on the map or they are mostly on the other side of the map?  In that case the cost of your ships is still high but you aren't going to get bonus neutral resources to help pay for them.  Vasari also needs to build 4 civic labs and do a level 4 research in order to build trade ports.  For TEC and Advent the number is 2 and 3 respectively.  For culture Vasari needs 3 labs but Advent needs only 2.  In terms of culture and trade relative to TEC and Advent, Vasari is at a disadvantage.  The only thing they really have going for them militarily later on in the game are Subverters (Level 6 military), Phase Missiles, and Kosturas.  (TEC can spam out units and put rebels on your planets.  Advent can make very powerful battle balls with Guardian repulsion.)

I'm not saying that the Vasari are a bad race to learn and play, far from it.  I just want to point out that while they are a good race, they aren't all that amazingly overpowered.  Like I said, before the changes that were made with the release of Diplomacy, Advent was the dominant race.  I am now starting to see more and more people play TEC and Advent now that they have a sense of how to counter the early-game Skinatra Scramble Bombers rush.

I also think that some of your other generalizations may be misinformed.  A great many 3vs3s, 4v4s, and 5v5s last for 1:15-1:45 (and if anything, people's complaints about this game are that it takes too long to play).  What really kills the online game is if a player minidumps (crashes) but that isn't as large of a problem now as you might think.  My perception is that in most team games no one crashes or lags out until the outcome of the game has been decided (at which point it may as well be over).

There are early-game rushes that can knock a player out early.  Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't; it depends on the players and the exact starting positions.  Oftentimes in a 4v4 or 5v5 one player will start out in the "suicide spot"--wedged between 4 or 5 opponents with one on either side of him, neither of whom have to worry about opponents on their other flanks.  Part of being an experienced and skilled player is learning how best to deal with this situation and figuring out how you can make a contribution to your team.  Some players are able to hole up at their home and be a huge pain-in-the-ass even essentially winning the game for their team.  Others can see the writing on the wall and prepare to migrate to another spot on the map, perhaps helping their teammates by attacking occupied opponents in the back with a few capital ships.

Whether or not it makes sense to do military and civic research all depends on your starting position relative to the other players, whether you are involved in early game combat, and your economy, etc.  Whether or not it will make sense to do certain amounts of military and/or civic research will depend on your playing style, your race, and your specific situation.  Civic research is a longer term investment that can pay dividends later.  Part of the strategy of this game is to apprehend whether you will be able to obtain a return on that investment and whether it will be worthwhile.  Obviously it's easier to obtain a return on low-level civic research that is done early on (say an increase to Terran population or resource extraction--the sooner you do it the more time you have to reap the rewards).  Being able to assess this properly and making the right decisions about what exactly to research and where to spend your limited resources is a core and essential component of the strategy in this game.  The Diplomacy expansion makes it even more interesting because Pacts--which is all civic-lab-based--offer a potentially even higher return on investment.

Anyway, now that I've posted my wall-of-text as predicted by AI-playing advocate N3rull, I hope you'll give online multiplayer Sins a chance.  Over the two years that this game has been on the market a great many players have learned to play the game at the pro level and enjoyed it with Sins becoming their favorite game for months.  I don't see any reason why you can't do the same thing.

 

Reply #8 Top

same as myfist,  i usually play with friendsonly,   occasional game i do play on mp. though i regret spending time on them 90% of the time

as in most of mp games, stuff grinds to a halt when midgame starts (sometimes even sooner), people either fortify themselves as advent with scoutspam, carriers and SB's,  or using units wich they know are OP, trying to snipe your capship,  usually failing and then prolonging the game as long as they can until they can get an advantage,  wich usually never happens.  and then,  after 5 long hours of chasing and bombing and waiting i get sick of nothing happening and call it a day... or.. night if you will.

not so much the fact that you cant win,  its that your not going to lose for atleast another 5 hours

 

some rare games actually turn out o.k. you actually meet fun people to play against,  no 5 hour match on 20 planet map,  intentional use of OP units ....  a game where people have no intention of stalling

then adding them to FL and inviting them to friend-only games
it's  how i've played sins all this time, it just takes awhile to finding the right people.

S_o_L

Reply #9 Top

FYI, the scout spam has pretty much been eliminated.  The scout damage was nerfed a bit in the 1.18 patch (I think).  So, you no longer see huge fleets of scouts anymore, unless they're Vasari scouts heading out to fight other scouts and colonizers for neutral extractors.

The most common trend right now is to see people attack with two Vasari Skinatras.  It can be countered if you anticipate it.

Reply #10 Top

FYI, the scout spam has pretty much been eliminated.

Vasari still use packs of them to nab extractors, and in a pinch it will still work for Advent (since their scouts were much stronger than the other scouts to begin with, and still are hanging on despite their nerf), but for the most part yes, the days of scout swarms are over.

Reply #11 Top

how would you counter the skirantra rush?

Reply #12 Top

how would you counter the skirantra rush?

Prayer...if that doesn't work...Skirantra's of your own...

In all seriousness though, if you aren't Vasari...

As TEC, two Sovas with just fighters is a start...though it ain't perfect, a dunov with magnetize (and even EMP) will work but its a big risk and probably won't work if the enemy has even a decent amount of kanraks...

As Advent, two Halcyons with Adept Drone Anima and Telekinetic Push are the way to go...

If you are TEC, building only one cap ship and investing everything you got into LRMs can sometimes allow you to kill a Skirantra quickly...but a good player probably won't give you a chance to kill more than one...

Ultimately, it's overpowered...some counters are better than others but there is no counter that works really well early on in the game...

 

Reply #13 Top

You can also make your own carriers with fighters early.  It costs him just as much to build those one-dimensional Skinatras.  If you're Advent and there are Vasari in the game, research carriers immediately.

Reply #14 Top

If you're Advent and there are Vasari in the game, research carriers immediately.

This is one of those situations where you better do some really good scouting and make certain that you will be fighting a Vasari player....if you rush carriers and put fighters on them, you'll be in good shape for fighting skirantras...but if you end up having to fight TEC or Advent, expect to see a lot of LFs and Flak just waiting to pound on your carriers and fighters...

Reply #15 Top

If you are playing against vasari and you research carriers as advent i wouldn't put fighters on I would put bombers on and in addition to at least one of my carrier cap build 6-8 drones with bombers of my own and a few fighters to kill those nasty assailants. 

Alive skirantra can spam bombers on and on dead one ..... well its dead  }:)  and all experience collecting and resources are wasted. 

If you can force him to go flak your already half way to win since flak doesn't really kill anything but fighters really good. 

 

Reply #16 Top

You see, the problem with online RTS is that the involved nature of the game makes it very unfun for those who want to play casually.

In an online FPS, for instance, a casual player can still occasionally kill an experienced player, and the number of players in a given game and the nature of quickly respawning after you die mitigate the effect of skill imbalances and allow the game to be playable for those who aren't in the top-tier of players.  In addition, the learning curve is generally shallower and the number of effective playstyles higher.

In an online RTS, on the other hand, the involved nature of each game makes it very frustrating for a casual player to play against people who are better than he is.  Generally RTS games tend to fall into the pitfall of being fairly limited in the number of possible winning strategies - one must learn one of a few strategies to be competitive, usually by watching replays and observing what the more experienced players do.  This, combined with the amount of time that you must devote to a single game (especially for SINS), makes it a nightmare for a casual player.  In any given game, you will almost always end up with at least one player who has devoted the time to learn the winning strategy, and that player will steamroll anyone who is not following that same strategy.  The fun is in the metagame that occurs within that strategy when you have two good players facing each other (for example, in Total Annihilation, the winning strategy was more or less to spam ARM t1 tanks, and the interesting bit was who could build up the economy faster while also winning the t1 tank fight).

For many people, myself included, watching replays to learn a specific winning strategy in order to play the game online without being steamrolled simply isn't fun.  Not everyone has the time to devote to play the game competitively.  This leads to a positive feedback loop - casual players leave the online games, making even harder for a given casual player to find a game with other casual players, resulting in more casual players leaving, etc.

The only possible solution to this problem is a functional ladder system.  Unfortunately, for many online RTSs, this is not doable because the playerbase is simply too small, and the more skilled players will eventually sandbag to find a game, defeating the entire purpose.

Reply #17 Top

Quoting Exterminator451, reply 16
In an online FPS, for instance, a casual player can still occasionally kill an experienced player, and the number of players in a given game and the nature of quickly respawning after you die mitigate the effect of skill imbalances and allow the game to be playable for those who aren't in the top-tier of players.  In addition, the learning curve is generally shallower and the number of effective playstyles higher.

You have a good point.  In some FPS it's possible to contribute by "hustling"--by being a hard-working player.  Unreal Tournament's (1999) Domination game is a great example, and so is Onslaught from UT 2004.  When you respawn you hustle right back into the action, throwing yourself at a small goal relentlessly.

In an online RTS, on the other hand, the involved nature of each game makes it very frustrating for a casual player to play against people who are better than he is.

One of Sins's big problems is a lack of skill-based pairing.  It wouldn't make much of a difference right now since the player counts aren't high enough to sustain something like that.  One improvised way around this is to play 5v5s and have two captains draft the teams from a pool of the other 8 players, which is a way of trying to apportion skill equally across the two teams.

Generally RTS games tend to fall into the pitfall of being fairly limited in the number of possible winning strategies - one must learn one of a few strategies to be competitive, usually by watching replays and observing what the more experienced players do.  This, combined with the amount of time that you must devote to a single game (especially for SINS), makes it a nightmare for a casual player.

Sins is pretty dynamic and there are numerous fleet builds, tactics, and strategies that a player might use.  The online multiplayer team game is much deeper than single player against AI in those regards.  The AI is very forgiving so it's not nearly as important.

Aside from micromanaging units in combat, the strategy in this game is all about balancing economic development, military needs, and research.   I think you need to get a sense of when you need to "peak" with your fleet.  When you need to get as many ships as possible so that you can invest to attain that.  Scouting and assessing the enemy and preparing to counter him is also very important.  Then you need to decide when and where to attack or where to defend.

Aside from requiring tactics and strategy, the multiplayer team game also introduces team-play-based elements into the game.  Sometimes you'll have to do things to help an ally, even if they don't ask for it, so you might need to keep an eye on what's going on with certain allies next to you or on the other side of the map.  You could feed them credits and resources if you are in an eco slot, build starbases at their homes if need be, or have your fleet help open up a second front for them.  (In Diplomacy, you might also try to pact with them.)

Your game strategy also changes depending on your starting spot relative to the other players.  If you start out sandwiched between opponents, it's gonna get hairy.  If you start out sandwiched between allies then you could either develop a strong economy so you can feed your allies, fleet up so that you can double an opponent on one of the flanks (or hit across the middle), or more likely, both.

In any given game, you will almost always end up with at least one player who has devoted the time to learn the winning strategy, and that player will steamroll anyone who is not following that same strategy.  The fun is in the metagame that occurs within that strategy when you have two good players facing each other (for example, in Total Annihilation, the winning strategy was more or less to spam ARM t1 tanks, and the interesting bit was who could build up the economy faster while also winning the t1 tank fight).

In the 5v5 pro games, instead of just one player who has learned the game, you often have 6 or 8 players who you might call pros.  There really isn't a single "master strategy" that everyone must follow besides "Colonize your asteroid first."  It's also very map-dependent.

For many people, myself included, watching replays to learn a specific winning strategy in order to play the game online without being steamrolled simply isn't fun.  Not everyone has the time to devote to play the game competitively.  This leads to a positive feedback loop - casual players leave the online games, making even harder for a given casual player to find a game with other casual players, resulting in more casual players leaving, etc.

Yeah, it's a shame that Sins has always had low player counts.  Even after its release it only had 300 people online at once, max.  A great many non-community issues drove players away (a horde of bugs and other problems, such as only 15% of the players being able to host games with games ending abruptly if the host lost his connection).  I think if Sins had been released in the more polished condition it is in right now that it could gain and hold far more players.

You don't have to watch replays if you don't want to; you could learn from experience.  Much of what I know came from being beaten by new strategies and tactics or from making mistakes.  ("The moral of this tragic story is, send one ship in to scout first before you jump.")  Sometimes you want to watch a replay to review a single event or understand how something specifically played out in a game.  It is, however, a strategy game.  If it weren't competitive then what fun would it be?  If it weren't challenging, then what fun would it be?  If it didn't offer the ability to advance in knowledge of the game and skill level, then what fun would it be?  It's a world domination and combat game, not Sim City or Happy Fluffy Bunny's Garden.  It's possible to lose.

The only possible solution to this problem is a functional ladder system.  Unfortunately, for many online RTSs, this is not doable because the playerbase is simply too small, and the more skilled players will eventually sandbag to find a game, defeating the entire purpose.

You pretty much nailed it.  One of Sins's problems is that 98% of everyone who ever bought the game never thought about trying to play it online against other people.  For some reason it just didn't sell to the type of people who play games in online mutliplayer; it might have appealed more to the 4X single player crowd than the RTS multiplayer crowd.  The other big problem is, as I said, a horde of problems non-game-play non-community-based problems that may have resulted in low player counts.  It's too bad it wasn't released in its currently semi-polished state.  It still has some problems in those areas (a player whose game crashes cannot easily rejoin the game, ruining it for the other 10 players, etc.).

Anyway, it's a great game if you are ever able to learn to play it on the pro level.  All of the pros started out as noobs once, so it's possible if you stick with it.  Sins does have a learning curve, but it probably wouldn't be fun nor as complex without one.