Shimon Peres in Russia » Forum Post by Leauki

"Eighty percent of the war's victims fell on the Russian side, including 200,000 Jews," he said, adding that the world has downplayed Russia's role in defeating Hitler.

The president also lauded the immigration of Jews fro the former USSR to Israel, and said the immigrants strengthened Israel. "Russia," he said, "allowed the Jewish people, even through years of pogroms and anti-Semitism, to pray to out God and long for Israel.

"It has also recently given us an unusual gift, one million Jews who immigrated to Israel. They changed the face of Israel. We have no land, water or oil, but we have a big spirit, which has been going for 3,000 years now. It is stronger than any military and richer than any oil."

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While Russia surely celebrates their victory over the Nazis, the west does tend to minimize it at least in the heroic films (history books are another matter). The reason though is not some diabolical attempt to pencil out Russia, but due to several factors, not the least of which was the Ribbontrop-Molotov pact (basically an admission that Germany and Russia were only separated by a common desire). This of course lead to the cold war, where the west saw Russia perhaps not as lethal as the Nazis, but every bit as dangerous.

Many historians speculate that had the Germans come into the Ukraine, and the other Russian Satellites as liberators instead of conquerors, the history of the eastern front would have been vastly different. Which lends credence to the original supposition that there was essentially no difference between Russia and Germany as far as goals and methods.

As for the contention that America has never gone to war to protect Jews, that is disingenuous. Israel was not a state during any major war of America in the past, but Jews have been citizens of countries defended by America. And as Shimon Peres points out, Israel has never asked for American troops to defend herself.

That the world sat by while Germany performed its mass extinction of Jews is a blot on our supposed moral superiority. But once prodded to action, no one can question the results of the actions of the allies.

Russia (and by extension the old USSR) has never had a particular genocidal intention for Jews. But they hate them because they see them as a foreign body in their monolithic society. Jews retained their fierce devotion to their religion during the atheistic days of the USSR, and in many ways out did the Soviets at the implementation of real communism. So while not hunted and killed, they were not loved by the authorities, and hence became, or more precisely remained, outsiders.

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As for the contention that America has never gone to war to protect Jews, that is disingenuous. Israel was not a state during any major war of America in the past, but Jews have been citizens of countries defended by America. And as Shimon Peres points out, Israel has never asked for American troops to defend herself.

I think he made that point solely to point out that the same advanced Europeans who condemn Israel (and the US) for fighting wars and for their alliance are more than willing to be allied with the US when they need such an alliance themselves.

That the world sat by while Germany performed its mass extinction of Jews is a blot on our supposed moral superiority. But once prodded to action, no one can question the results of the actions of the allies.

The world also sat by when the Arabs murdered and expelled middle-eastern Jews. In fact the world still supports such measures.

Either way, Peres' point is not as much about morality as it is about explaining what Israel does.

Israel knows that if the Arabs win, the world will not stop the genocide. Every Isreali knows that Israel is on her own.

That's the point he was making.

He does not so much condemn the world for standing idly by but for condemning Israel when the Jews try to defend themselves.

Russia (and by extension the old USSR) has never had a particular genocidal intention for Jews. But they hate them because they see them as a foreign body in their monolithic society. Jews retained their fierce devotion to their religion during the atheistic days of the USSR, and in many ways out did the Soviets at the implementation of real communism. So while not hunted and killed, they were not loved by the authorities, and hence became, or more precisely remained, outsiders.

Stalin never did figure out what to do with the Jews. First he supported them because he wanted a socialist state (Israel) in the sea of British allies (the Arabs). Then the Nazis in Egypt allied with him and suddenly the Jews became the enemy again despite (or more precisely because) their socialism.

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I think he made that point solely to point out that the same advanced Europeans who condemn Israel (and the US) for fighting wars and for their alliance are more than willing to be allied with the US when they need such an alliance themselves.

That goes without saying.

He does not so much condemn the world for standing idly by but for condemning Israel when the Jews try to defend themselves.

He should do both. They are equally guilty of the sins.

Stalin never did figure out what to do with the Jews. First he supported them because he wanted a socialist state (Israel) in the sea of British allies (the Arabs). Then the Nazis in Egypt allied with him and suddenly the Jews became the enemy again despite (or more precisely because) their socialism.

That is politics. But on an International level. I was talking about the internal treatment of the Jews in Russia (and the USSR). But you are correct. They were the example that laid bare the lie of the USSR.

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Maybe he forgets the 600 US soldiers and their patriot missiles deployed to Israel during Desert Storm? I wonder if the Jews liberated by US and other Allied troops would say that the battles that liberated them weren't to save Jews. The nation of Israel exists because other countries came to the defense of Jews and a homeland for you. How much of Israel's national budget comes from US (and other nations) taxpayers?

I commend Israel for its accomplishments and the Israeli military for its successes, but no one can say that Israel has stood without the help of other nations.

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Maybe he forgets the 600 US soldiers and their patriot missiles deployed to Israel during Desert Storm?

I don't think he forgot them, it just wouldn't have been appropriate to compare 600 soldiers (who did not suffer casualties as far as I know) to the huge war effort of the Soviet Union.

I wonder if the Jews liberated by US and other Allied troops would say that the battles that liberated them weren't to save Jews.

The Allies did a lot to defeat Hitler, but most of the work was done by the Russians (financed and supported by the US, no doubt).

Unfortunately, the western Allies didn't care much about the Holocaust, despite the Polish Government in Exile asking them to do something sooner.

It was the Russians who liberated most concentration camps and all death camps (which were located in the east).

The nation of Israel exists because other countries came to the defense of Jews and a homeland for you.

That is true.

But do consider how much different it would have been if the Arabs had not also been supported by the British. The Arab armies that attacked Israel in 1948 were British-trained and British-led and has British weapons. Israel was saved at that point by a delivery of weapons from Czechoslovakia.

The US only became an ally of Israel in the 1970s.

So the other countries, who didn't directly come to the defence of Israel, helped both sides, changing loyalties over time.

How much of Israel's national budget comes from US (and other nations) taxpayers?

Less than 20% of the defence budget, as far as I know.

I commend Israel for its accomplishments and the Israeli military for its successes, but no one can say that Israel has stood without the help of other nations.

I don't think he said that Israel has stood without the help of other nations. He said that Israel, in contrast to the Europeans, has never asked for anybody's help, specifically not for the deaths of other country's sons. Israel, in contrast to America's European allies, did not waste American lives, only American money (and much less of that than the others).

America's most cost-effective ally remains Israel, depite what people might say about how much money the US give to Israel.

And while I myself am totally convinced that the US are (now, or at least most recently) Israel's most reliable powerful ally, even I cannot imagine American soldiers dying in the West-Bank trying to defend or liberate Israel like they did for so many other countries in the world.

I predict that if Israel loses a war and is overrun by the Arabs, NOONE will come to her aid, not even the Americans.

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I don't think he forgot them, it just wouldn't have been appropriate to compare 600 soldiers (who did not suffer casualties as far as I know) to the huge war effort of the Soviet Union.

"Peres emphasized that while Israel shares a friendship with the United States, it has never asked American mothers to send their children to fight for Israel or alongside the Jewish State."

The mothers of 600 US soldiers were asked to send their children to fight for Israel, along side the Jewish State.

Does the fact they suffered no casualties diminish the service? He not only forgot it.. he denied it happened at all.

I don't think he said that Israel has stood without the help of other nations.

"We fought on our own, and we won on our own" he said.

Hmmmmmmm

Actually, it's interesting. America has gone to war to protect Christians, Muslims, and even Bhuddists. Just about the only religious group that America has not, and will not go to war for, are Jews. We're lucky when we are allowed to keep our victory when God saves us from being wiped out.

Has not, and will not? We have been Israel's closest ally for a long time now. Now the leader says that he thinks we'd never go to war for Jews?

What an INGRATE!!!!!

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I'm not diminishing in the least what The Soviet Union did for the Jews during WWII. The Jews owe a great debt of gratitude for the brave and heroic acts of the Soviets on their behalf. However, for President Shimon Peres to make the above statements smacks of pandering to the audience... truth and reality apparently don't seem to matter.

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It would have been much better for him to give a speech on what Russia has done for Israel than to sit and trash Israel's allies.

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However, for President Shimon Peres to make the above statements smacks of pandering to the audience... truth and reality apparently don't seem to matter.

But it was the truth. Israel did fight alone and won alone. Nobody else fought for Israel.

He wasn't talking about other types of support: diplomatic, financial, moral. He was solely talking about military action.

And it's quite true. While the US fought wars for the British, the French, most of Europe, the Vietnamese, the Koreans, Bosnian and Albanian Muslims, Iraqis, Saudi-Arabia, and Kuwait, the US never fought a war for or in Israel.

The only country that fought specifically (not accidentally) for the Jews in the last century was Poland, in the sense that the Polish Government in Exile specifically asked the Allies to act agains the Holocaust and contributed many men to the British war effort in an attempt to liberate Poland and the Jews.

Since the 1960s the US have done a lot for Israel. But before the 1960s it was not so much and Israel has never asked American soldiers to die for her, quite in contrast to America's other allies.

Forget even World War 2. What you guys did for Germany during the Cold War was amazing. And it cost a lot more than supporting Israel. And what did it buy you? Is Germany very pro-American and willing to help a friend right-or-wrong? I don't think I am too optimistic when I say that Israel will help the US, even if you are in the wrong (or perceived to be by everyone).

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Ok, so if that is his attitude, tell me why the US should continue sending money to Israel? I guess the 600 artillery soldiers and officers should have just stayed home.

I'm a firm supporter of our two nations' alliance... but this makes me wonder if Prs. Peres doesn't feel entitled to it, and take it for granted.

He needs to keep in mind that Prs. Obama doesn't seem to interested in the alliance, and there are a lot of Americans that would just as soon we end all support for Israel.

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The Eucom troops deployed to Israel to help set up an Army/Navy Transportable Radar Surveillance system, Dorrian confirmed. The Israeli government requested the system to help defend against a potential missile attack from Iran.

Maybe Prs. Peres doesn't know about the U.S. troops permanently assigned to Israel to help defend against missile attacks.

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Ok, so if that is his attitude, tell me why the US should continue sending money to Israel? I guess the 600 artillery soldiers and officers should have just stayed home.

Why should Peres be thanking the US for something the US didn't do?

He didn't say anything about lack of support from the US. He was only talking about actual fighting in actual wars. And that is something the US has never done for Israel and nor has Israel ever asked for it.

What do you expect Peres to say? Should he make up something and thank the US for it?

I'm a firm supporter of our two nations' alliance... but this makes me wonder if Prs. Peres doesn't feel entitled to it, and take it for granted.

Maybe his point was that the US' other alliances demand more from the US.

And for some reason this is not only true but apparently shouldn't even be talked about.

He needs to keep in mind that Prs. Obama doesn't seem too interested in the alliance, and there are a lot of Americans that would just as soon we end all support for Israel.

They are known as the "anti-war" crowd and they want to go back to the times of the big wars between Israel and the Arabs. I doubt they are a majority in the US.

Most Americans seem to disagree with Obama's position and I don't think it hurts if Peres points out that as allies go Israel is a less-demanding one than most of the others.

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Maybe Prs. Peres doesn't know about the U.S. troops permanently assigned to Israel to help defend against missile attacks.

Again, those troops have not been asked to fight.

Even if they ever become part of a war, what will be asked of them won't be anything like what the European allies asked of the US in World War 2.

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It would have been much better for him to give a speech on what Russia has done for Israel

He did.

What Russia did for Israel was liberating the death camps and Stalin's vote for Israel in the UN.

But that was it. After that Russia changed sides.

than to sit and trash Israel's allies.

When did he "trash" Israel's allies???

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Incredible.

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Maybe they are right, maybe we're wasting our money and resources on Israel. If you and Prs. Peres want to imagine Israel has done it without help, maybe you should be willing to insist we leave you alone to prove it.

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Is Germany very pro-American and willing to help a friend right-or-wrong?

Very much so. The politicians bluster, but the people remember. I have never seen any animosity from Germans towards Americans like you see in France. I think Merkel's caving to Obama just recently, while very misguided, is an example of the very issue you seem to think does not exist.

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I, for one, dont' want to see that happen, but I resent Prs. Peres denying the help we have offered throughout the history of Israel.

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Quoting Leauki,

reply 15

When did he "trash" Israel's allies???

Quoting ParaTed2k,

reply 17

Maybe they are right, maybe we're wasting our money and resources on Israel. If you and Prs. Peres want to imagine Israel has done it without help, maybe you should be willing to insist we leave you alone to prove it.

Perhaps trashing is too strong a word. However, it is apparent that his speech has been taken as a slight towards the US by at least one informed citizen. That in itself does not bode well as there is a great debate going on in the USA now about the Support for Israel, with the current administration trying its damnedest to throw them under the bus, and opposition, LIKE Parated2k, trying to prevent that from happening. And yet he perceives a slight. Peres has some back tracking to do. Putin is not going to rush to the aid of Israel when Obama cuts off all aid for "perceived" human rights violations.

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Maybe they are right, maybe we're wasting our money and resources on Israel. If you and Prs. Peres want to imagine Israel has done it without help, maybe you should be willing to insist we leave you alone to prove it.

Well, I don't know what speech of Peres' you imagine you read but it seems like you have decided to get into an anti-Peres frenzy and there is nothing I can do against it. What's the point of telling you again and again that he didn't actually say what you seem to think he said if it just gets you going again?

Very much so.

You must know a different Germany than I.

The French are more vocal (and more anti-American than the Germans) but Germany is a close second. I still remember what Germany did in 2002 and 2003 when a common diplomatic front against Iraq could have avoided war and Germany instead decided to oppose America no-matter-what, with Schroeder even campaigning (and winning elections) on a platform of opposition to the US.

The politicians bluster, but the people remember. I have never seen any animosity from Germans towards Americans like you see in France. I think Merkel's caving to Obama just recently, while very misguided, is an example of the very issue you seem to think does not exist.

The people don't remember. You'd be surprised. Some remember, but they are dying out. My generation is almost uniformly anti-American and it is only slowly changing, unfortunately mostly because Islam is now perceived as a worse evil.

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I notice you shrug off "almost 20%" of Israel's defense budget pretty cavalierly. Perhaps you'd like to see Israel defend itself without it.

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I notice you shrug off "almost 20%" of Israel's defense budget pretty cavalierly.

Because it ultimately isn't as much as you first implied.

Perhaps you'd like to see Israel defend itself without it.

I am too young for this, but Shimon Peres sure remembers those days.

That was his very point.

Israel did defend herself without it.

American financial support helped Israel avoid further wars but it did not WIN Israel any wars.

Peres fought in the Haganah and the IDF in the 1940s, WITHOUT American (government) money. He was instrumental in getting first French and then British (not American) support.

So, yes, when he talks about how Israel won wars alone, he is right. He was there. He fought those wars.

I, for one, dont' want to see that happen, but I resent Prs. Peres denying the help we have offered throughout the history of Israel.

And he hasn't.

What he did do was tell the truth: Israel never asked the US to send soldiers to die, unlike so many other allies of the US who did exactly that. The fact that Israel and the US have been allies since AFTER the great wars doesn't mean anything for the time during those great wars.

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You sound like any other entitlement baby. Has Israel become so dependent on help from the US and other countries, they don't even appreciate it anymore? Or should we just shut up and cough up more because we somehow "owe" it to Isreal?

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Perhaps trashing is too strong a word. However, it is apparent that his speech has been taken as a slight towards the US by at least one informed citizen. That in itself does not bode well as there is a great debate going on in the USA now about the Support for Israel, with the current administration trying its damnedest to throw them under the bus, and opposition, LIKE Parated2k, trying to prevent that from happening. And yet he perceives a slight. Peres has some back tracking to do. Putin is not going to rush to the aid of Israel when Obama cuts off all aid for "perceived" human rights violations.

The current administration has actually increased financial and military help for Israel.

This is, ironically, one of my criticisms. I don't see the benefit of giving more money to the terrorists and then, on the other hand, help Israel become stronger so she can defend herself against those stronger terrorists. It can only lead to war, if to a war that Israel will again survive. (And then the demonstrations will start again world-wide.)

There is a lot Israel can do for the US. One of the things is being more cost-effective than the other allies, although that doesn't seem to be appreciated much. Another is to help diplomatically. Israel is very popular in certain parts of Africa which the US are as of yet uninterested in. Another is intelligence. A while ago I linked to an article that even the "Democratic Underground" linked to about how Israel tried to prevent 911 by following those very terrorists and feeding information to the US (who didn't want it).

But the one thing I doubt Israel and Peres can do for the US is claim that the US helped Israel win her wars.

One thing is that Israel did win her wars alone, or at least without military help from the US. Another thing is that the Arabs keep telling themselves that "Big Satan" helped "Little Satan". I don't see the point of re-inforcing that stupid legend (or how it would make Americans feel better if it was).

I don't know why Ted perceives a slight. To me it seems like he read a different speech. And I don't know how Peres could backtrack. He spoke about European countries, not the US. The only thing he said about the US was that Israel never asked the US to send her sons to war for Israel. If that is perceived as a slight by the US, I don't know what Israel could do. We don't want Americans to die for us.

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